oh i definitely wouldn't use biofreaks and arab13's rape island punishment for everyone, i'm talking more like the Ted Bundys, Jeffrey Dahmers and Charles Mansons of the world....

situations where there is a incredible amount of evidence that they did it.

11/18/2009 9:52:39 AM

Quote :

"situations where there is a incredible amount of evidence that they did it."

This is never politically affected so we should be fi-- *gets shipped to BioArab's Rape Isle*

11/18/2009 9:54:42 AM

Quote :

""No, it makes you feel great that your moral superiority supports saving a life, despite it being the life of an evil person...and while we're all jerking it furiously to the thought of justice being served, you're about to bust from your own self righteous kick""

Quote :

"Textbook case of psychological projection here"

Projection: attributing to others one's own unacceptable desires and impulses.

Projection is seen to be a mechanism of self-deception, so please, explain to me how that person is a "textbook case." The person was discussing what they felt you were doing, not what their unacceptable desires are, seeing as they stated afterward "we're all jerking it furiously to the thought of justice being served."

[Edited on November 18, 2009 at 10:17 AM. Reason : .]

11/18/2009 10:12:25 AM

Everybody who rushes into threads like these to describe what they want done to the offender is getting off on moral superiority and their own sense of justice

To then turn around and accuse me of getting off for painting a somewhat more measured picture is projecting one's own masturbatory tendencies onto me. I don't even like considering this issue; much less do I get off considering it, even though I think I'm presenting a valuable viewpoint

projection: "McDanger is being a self-righteous twat" *is a self-righteous twat who wants to beat the mentally ill with a crow bar*

[Edited on November 18, 2009 at 10:17 AM. Reason : .]

11/18/2009 10:17:13 AM

Quote :

"the inhumanity of recreational and industrial fishing"

11/18/2009 10:19:36 AM

That seems to be hypocrisy, not psychological projection.

More for you (even though it's from Wiki.. my first source was a textbook):

Quote :

"Psychological projection or projection bias (including Freudian Projection) is the unconscious act of denial of a person's own attributes, thoughts, and emotions, which are then ascribed to the outside world, such as to the weather, the government, a tool, or to other people. Thus, it involves imagining or projecting that others have the same feelings or motives, rather than what they really think."

[Edited on November 18, 2009 at 10:21 AM. Reason : .]

11/18/2009 10:20:26 AM

*has a quality*

*supposes his opponent has that quality while not seeing the quality in himself*

11/18/2009 10:20:56 AM

get this soap box shit out of shit chat, just cut the motherfuckers balls off

11/18/2009 10:22:47 AM

haha I called on page 2 that this needed to be moved to the soap box

11/18/2009 10:24:29 AM

the shit box

11/18/2009 10:25:06 AM

Yeah, um, still not a "textbook case." I think it would be more of a textbook case if they tried saying the desire of wanting to beat the "mentally ill with a crow bar" was a desire possessed by many people out there, but not them (even though subconsciously it would be their desire).

[Edited on November 18, 2009 at 10:27 AM. Reason : *sigh* people.]

11/18/2009 10:26:19 AM

It's not the violence that I was claiming to be projected here, but getting off on self-righteous moral indignation

[Edited on November 18, 2009 at 10:40 AM. Reason : .]

11/18/2009 10:40:26 AM

That's my whole point, you were saying they were projecting because they were calling you self-righteous when you feel they are in fact being self-righteous themselves. I feel you're thinking hypocrisy, not psychological projection.

[Edited on November 18, 2009 at 10:45 AM. Reason : oops grammar ]

11/18/2009 10:44:59 AM

I'm certainly not self-righteous about something I consider basic sense; wish I could say differently for the "compete to see who can describe the more violent punishment" crowd

11/18/2009 10:46:30 AM

This is sickening to do this to a child, if they are proven guilty, they should go away. To quote Ron White, "I would like to be the one carrying out the death penalty on the day spring clocks forward. "

[Edited on November 18, 2009 at 10:56 AM. Reason : .]

11/18/2009 10:55:44 AM

Quote :

"I'm certainly not self-righteous"

LOLZ!!!!!1!!! - i just spit coffee on my computer

11/18/2009 10:57:02 AM

IBTS

11/18/2009 10:57:13 AM

11/18/2009 10:58:04 AM

this is in reference to McDangers Dorthea Dix comment about clearing them all out.
two types of mental illness
1) the one that is incompetent and can't function in society
2) the one that is incompetent and can't function in society that commits atrocious acts against said society

both could be in mental institutions if they still existed but the second one should be punished just like everyone else who commits crimes against society. There is a crystal clear difference between the two. To suggest that we clear out all people with mental illness and put them in jail is a cop out that is not well thought through. Not all people with mental illness commit these crimes so why would you even ask

Quote :

"Do you think we should take the people down at Dorothea Dix and throw them into jail instead? "

Just stupid.

I do wonder if there is anyone in their right mind when raping and murdering children? If it is mental illness, then it will be done again so the cycle should be stopped. I agree with removing them from society.

11/18/2009 11:15:50 AM

^ What punchmonk said.

11/18/2009 11:18:19 AM

punchmonk you realize I wasn't actually suggesting clearing out dorothea dix, right? I'm having trouble understanding why you think your reply addresses what I was actually saying

[Edited on November 18, 2009 at 12:25 PM. Reason : .]

11/18/2009 12:13:12 PM

Quote :

"what we really need is a volcanic island of desperation, push you out a helo 15 feet up on to a barren volcanic blot in the middle of the pacific (or a barren atoll, no trees) 100+ miles from shipping lanes, the area would be monitered by rings of remote radar and sonar bouys 10, 25 and 70 miles out (to prevent pick ups) all attempts and breaking the rings are met with a cruise missile or torpedo. let the fuckers resort to eating eachother and then starving to death slowly as they suffer in the elements."

FOURTY YEARS LATER

11/18/2009 12:23:06 PM

lol tww even got a thumper

11/18/2009 12:25:51 PM

you can make those, oddly enough. the spreader, surprisingly, has to be ordered

11/18/2009 12:27:48 PM

I knew you were not saying that. And it comes across as me being a jerk. I am not on your side of your argument for this situation but I appreciated everything you had to say but that. I was kind of calling you out on it bc that one statement made your whole argument pseudo to me. It was almost like you were running out of steam and the rest of what you said in this thread was just :insert charlie brown's teacher's voice:

11/18/2009 12:28:06 PM

gotsta spread them rangs

Quote :

"I knew you were not saying that. And it comes across as me being a jerk. I am not on your side of your argument for this situation but I appreciated everything you had to say but that. I was kind of calling you out on it bc that one statement made your whole argument pseudo to me. It was almost like you were running out of steam and the rest of what you said in this thread was just :insert charlie brown's teacher's voice:"

I have no idea what you're getting at. I was just demonstrating that many people have a faulty decision rule with respect to these issues, especially when you consider we don't have disorders properly mapped out and classified yet

[Edited on November 18, 2009 at 12:29 PM. Reason : .]

11/18/2009 12:28:13 PM

I was enjoying the argument, you were head to head with treetwista and then you made that statement and I lost heart for a good argument the rest of the thread. Bc I am of the opposite opinion of you, I was hoping your devil's advocate would sway me in a different direction. I am open to that but alas that comment just made a nosedive for me.

I know you were just stating opinions and the your purpose was just to state opinions but I am always geared up for a good argument. And if something is argued well then you are never wrong even if it is opinion. I was looking for a good sway and there was fail.

[Edited on November 18, 2009 at 12:36 PM. Reason : I STILL THINK YOURE NEAT!]

11/18/2009 12:35:25 PM

no that's all fine i take zero offense at any of this stuff

I'm just curious why you thought this particular thing was so off base. People used to treat all of the mentally ill as "evil" or as criminals in some way deserving of harsh punishment. You can even see the residue of that attitude in mental institutions.

100 years ago we understood even less about disorders and how to deal with them. If we applied the decision rule many people are suggesting we adopt to 100 years ago it's clearly goofy. My point is that we have a better understanding of these things now but still not a particularly sophisticated understanding; thus, we should probably look at today's situation critically (with respect to what is and isn't a legitimate disorder).

It depends on how you view human beings and how they fit into society. If you think magical ju-ju rays cause people to make radically free choices then you probably think what I'm saying is foolish. If you think people are physical systems that act for real reasons, then those reasons can be addressed (if appropriate, which is a different issue). In the case of people with brain-defects that cause insane behavior, I think we should look towards treating the physical causes rather than harsh, cathartic punishment.

11/18/2009 12:39:23 PM

I am just saying that some people that were in mental institutions were there on their own accord and were not ordered to be in there. There are no longer mental institutions, btw.

I deal with some mental illness in my family so I have seen the milder side of this. I do believe that not all need to be put in jail bc they can be helped. I do believe there are some that deviate from allowing others to have life in society and those should be punished accordingly.

If all people with mental illness were put in prison then I believe there would be a lot fewer people walking the streets just bc I feel we all have some variant of mental instability.

This may sound frou frou but I appreciate your heart for human kind. I am not placating you.

11/18/2009 12:45:31 PM

Quote :

"It's not just deviating from the norm that's the problem. It's deviating from the norm in a way that damages other people directly."

I didn't use the word "problem." I used the word "sick." I don't think there's much ground to say, "This abnormal person has a disease, this abnormal person doesn't" just because one abnormality results in illegal behavior. Which brings me to another issue, which is that by the language you use here everybody who commits any crime that has a victim must be ill. A mugger damages me and violates my autonomy and liberty.

There's also the fact that you don't have any evidence that all such criminals are mentally ill. You're always one to complain when other people speak outside their area of expertise; I'll remind you that you are not studying psychology, and that plenty of murderers have been sent to jail or the grave on the word of trained, experienced psychologists who deemed them sane. "Because they do bad things, they must be sick" is not really tenable.

Quote :

""Is it a threat? Remove it." Take the tumor out. Treat the schizophrenia. That's how you remove the threat, in my opinion."

Unreliable at best. We're not so great at it under ideal circumstances, and I'm very wary of a situation where a high-functioning individual could convince authorities that he had been treated.

I'm also willing to make a simple calculation that we have a limited number of competent mental health experts. I'd rather them spend their energy helping people who haven't killed anybody.

Quote :

"People get a measure of solace out of all sorts of barbaric shit."

TALKING. These people are TALKING. They're blowing off steam. Should you be able to rape the rapist? Not really. Should you be able to luridly describe a fantasy of shoving a saguaro cactus in his ass? Sure, if it makes you feel better, knock yourself out.

I'd be shocked to find out that anyone in this thread who has suggested a terrible punishment would be able to carry it out given the chance. Not that it matters, because they won't get the chance.

11/18/2009 1:56:29 PM

11/18/2009 1:58:55 PM

^hey look i can come up with anecdotal evidence that supports my opinion too!

11/18/2009 2:48:55 PM

ddd

11/18/2009 2:55:21 PM

your mom

11/18/2009 3:01:09 PM

Quote :

"There are no longer mental institutions, btw. "

Would you call a psychiatric ward a "mental institution" or not? Maybe I'm misusing the word, but this is what I had in mind.

Quote :

"I deal with some mental illness in my family so I have seen the milder side of this. I do believe that not all need to be put in jail bc they can be helped. I do believe there are some that deviate from allowing others to have life in society and those should be punished accordingly."

Sounds like these people need treatment + separation from society, not "punishment". What end do you envision punishment serving in this situation? What is the disabled person supposed to be learning?

Quote :

"If all people with mental illness were put in prison then I believe there would be a lot fewer people walking the streets just bc I feel we all have some variant of mental instability."

Of course I'm not suggesting this. If anything I'm suggesting those with mental illness be REMOVED from prison and placed in a ward where they can receive proper treatment.

Quote :

"This may sound frou frou but I appreciate your heart for human kind. I am not placating you."

Quote :

"I didn't use the word "problem." I used the word "sick." I don't think there's much ground to say, "This abnormal person has a disease, this abnormal person doesn't" just because one abnormality results in illegal behavior. Which brings me to another issue, which is that by the language you use here everybody who commits any crime that has a victim must be ill. A mugger damages me and violates my autonomy and liberty."

Not quite. A mugger violates your liberty insofar as now you have less resources with which to do things. However he's taking your belongings rather than harming your person (by supposition, though I realize there are violent muggings). There are plenty of causes of property theft that clearly don't fall under mental illness (namely, poverty).

Certain crimes require the person to be sick though (excluding crimes of passion for the sake of discussion). The criterion isn't whether or not the behavior is illegal, but the nature of that behavior and how it affects the person of others. To cause somebody extreme pain or death in a premeditated fashion demonstrates an underlying psychiatric condition (at least so I argue).

Quote :

"There's also the fact that you don't have any evidence that all such criminals are mentally ill. You're always one to complain when other people speak outside their area of expertise; I'll remind you that you are not studying psychology, and that plenty of murderers have been sent to jail or the grave on the word of trained, experienced psychologists who deemed them sane. "Because they do bad things, they must be sick" is not really tenable."

The work I'm currently involved in is used for neural classification based off of fMRI scans. You won't find me violating my own standards too often. Since my most recent research projects involve computational statistical analysis of fMRI datasets, I know a fair amount about what we know about classification, causal inference, and neural effective connectivity.

"Because they do sick things, they must be sick" I think is a decent assumption. How many sane people would saw a perfect stranger into pieces?

Quote :

"Unreliable at best. We're not so great at it under ideal circumstances, and I'm very wary of a situation where a high-functioning individual could convince authorities that he had been treated."

I'm not suggesting turning these people loose again, even. I'm suggesting getting them some help. Some forms of help require the person to be completely removed from society.

Quote :

"I'm also willing to make a simple calculation that we have a limited number of competent mental health experts. I'd rather them spend their energy helping people who haven't killed anybody."

Good thing we're training computers to detect mental illnesses based on neuro-imaging data. Not that this obviates the need for psychologists/psychiatrists.

Quote :

"TALKING. These people are TALKING. They're blowing off steam. Should you be able to rape the rapist? Not really. Should you be able to luridly describe a fantasy of shoving a saguaro cactus in his ass? Sure, if it makes you feel better, knock yourself out. I'd be shocked to find out that anyone in this thread who has suggested a terrible punishment would be able to carry it out given the chance. Not that it matters, because they won't get the chance."

What you say reveals your preferences. The people saying these things are probably more likely to vote in "tough on crime" (read: punishment platform) politicians into office to do the dirty work for them.

11/18/2009 3:01:47 PM

nm

[Edited on November 18, 2009 at 3:03 PM. Reason : not gonna change anything]

11/18/2009 3:03:13 PM

BEAT HIM TO DEATH WITH A WRENCH

BUTT FUCK HIM WITH A BASEBALL BAT

NUKE HIM FROM ORBIT

is this on the right level for you yet, TreeTwista?

11/18/2009 3:07:43 PM

I'd ask you if you think Mussolini should be killed for killing hundreds of thousands of people, or if someone should help him work through his problems, but he's probably a hero to you

11/18/2009 3:35:44 PM

Why would you think he's a hero to me? Based on what?

Mussolini was obviously a madman. Killing him during his reign would have been justifiable to stop what he was doing (consider this covered by a self-defense sort of clause). Killing him after he's apprehended? I don't see the point.

11/18/2009 3:38:13 PM

Quote :

"Why would you think he's a hero to me? Based on what?"

What you say reveals your preferences.

11/18/2009 3:38:45 PM

Quote :

"What you say reveals your preferences."

And how exactly did you draw the brilliant inference that I'd love an Italian fascist?

11/18/2009 3:39:58 PM

The same way you've drawn all your brilliant inferences in this thread about all the other posters

By jumping to conclusions

Or did something logical lead you to believe I would want to buttfuck this guy with a baseball bat?

11/18/2009 3:41:27 PM

I was asking if it was on your level or not, which it clearly is.

Let me pound my chest like a fucking ape and demand blood some, then maybe I'll get more sympathy in this thread

Quote :

"I would be in favor of Vlad impaling the mother and the pedophile"

[Edited on November 18, 2009 at 3:44 PM. Reason : get the fuck out of here]

11/18/2009 3:43:19 PM

Who is pounding their chest like an ape?

Hey look, you're jumping to wild conclusions again.

LOOK AT THESE FUCKING REDNECKS, GOD DAMN IT FEELS GOOD TO KNOW HOW MUCH BETTER I AM THAN THEM

[Edited on November 18, 2009 at 3:45 PM. Reason : .]

11/18/2009 3:44:38 PM

I don't set my bar so low as to feel good about being better than a bunch of dipshit peckerwood rednecks from NC

That's like saying I'm better than a rhesus macaque. It's true, but it's not something I'm particularly proud of

11/18/2009 3:48:59 PM

so does this mean you were against the execution of hussein?

11/18/2009 3:49:09 PM

yes

11/18/2009 3:50:37 PM

Quote :

"I don't set my bar so low as to feel good about being better than a bunch of dipshit peckerwood rednecks from NC"

denial isn't just a river in egypt

I wonder if you hold all the dipshit peckerwood rednecks from right outside of pittsburgh in the same light

11/18/2009 3:51:02 PM

i don't think that works as well when you type it out

11/18/2009 3:52:47 PM

Quote :

"denial isn't just a river in egypt"

For most people life is hard. For TreeTwista, it's damned near impossible.

Quote :

"I wonder if you hold all the dipshit peckerwood rednecks from right outside of pittsburgh in the same light"

Yep.

[Edited on November 18, 2009 at 3:53 PM. Reason : ]

11/18/2009 3:52:50 PM