LOLOL... Hey if I say that I hope that no one dies, then I can support whatever side I want regardless of their actions.

After all, I hope no one on either side dies! (but secretly I hope the jews die)

6/1/2010 8:49:56 PM

The next aid ship is due to arrive tomorrow. Carries nobel prize winners.

6/1/2010 9:11:33 PM

Quote :

"It's not like I was hoping for them to die. It'd be best if nobody died, and if nobody suffered in this situation, but the people of Gaza have the short end of the shit-stick here and it has to stop."

I feel for the people of Gaza. I really do. But in some ways they have brought this on themselves by voting Hamas into power. The fact is that Israel pulled out of the Gaza Strip unilaterally. The blockade didn't exist a few years ago, and the borders were more open. They have stated over and over that they do not want to be an occupying power. But they must defend themselves against terrorism and countless rocket attacks coming from Gaza. To say that Israel is heavy-handed is an understatement. But the blockade and other actions have been punitive measures against a territory that elected a terrorist group with a stated goal of destroying Israel to lead them, and continues to attack them on a daily basis. Israel will never negotiate with Hamas, so Gaza will be in a state of limbo as long as Hamas is in power.

The best thing that the people of Gaza can do is reject Hamas, disavow counterproductive actions like rocket attacks over the border, rejoin with the Palestinian Authority and continue negotiations with Israel. A lot of the misery in the region is self-inflicted, with the obvious disclaimer that Israel has been incredibly heavy-handed in their treatment.

6/1/2010 9:27:58 PM

They could elect mother fucking teresa and it would have no effect on how Israel treats them. The racism and hatred is too deeply entrenched. It falls on the country with the second most advanced army in the world to be the bigger man and treat their stone-age enemy with human decency....at least if it wants to continue to be part of the civilized world.

6/1/2010 9:33:02 PM

weakness makes right.

that's just about as stupid-shit as saying "might makes right"

6/1/2010 9:42:36 PM

^^Oh, really?

Do you understand that the blockade, border restrictions and other measures were put in place in direct response to the indiscriminant rocket attacks and takeover of Hamas, whose stated goal is to destroy Israel?

How hard is it to see that Israel's treatment of the region is a direct reaction to the hostility coming from within Gaza? Again, I'm not defending Israel here, but rather criticizing the counterproductive actions that Gazans keep taking. What will it take for them to stop attacking Israel? Because the blockade was a direct response to their hostile measures in the wake of Israel's pullout.

You really don't think that Israel would treat them differently if they rejected Hamas and stopped the rocket attacks? Just look at how Israel treats the West Bank. Those people are not suffering anything near the horrors that Gaza faces, mostly because they didn't elect a fucking terrorist group to lead them, and they don't fire rockets indiscriminately across the border.

[Edited on June 1, 2010 at 9:47 PM. Reason : 2]

6/1/2010 9:42:46 PM

^ yea but you don't understand, Israel is more powerful than Gaza so it is wrong by default.

It's as simple as that in McDanger and smc's world.


[Edited on June 1, 2010 at 9:49 PM. Reason : Also, they're jews.]

6/1/2010 9:48:23 PM

^Israel is by no means blameless in its West Bank activity either, but your point is noted.

[Edited on June 1, 2010 at 10:44 PM. Reason : Lots of blank posts in this thread. ]

6/1/2010 10:43:57 PM

Quote :

"Another thing: I doubt you're really encouraging violence on either side, right?"

I want an end to suffering on all sides, on all accounts.

There have been some comments in this thread that really bother me. Some of you assume that the actions of a few reflect the whole. We all know that the decisions of a government in no way reflect the feelings of every citizen. The Israeli people protest their own government just as much if not more than we see Americans do it.

And Solinari, please stop throwing around "antisemitism" as if anyone who disagrees with Israel's political decisions hates all Jews. I am Jewish, Zionist, pro-two state solution, pro peace, and frequently upset at Israel's political decisions. It really upsets me that you use it so freely.

6/1/2010 10:49:57 PM

Because I mean, racism is never thrown at conservatives when debating illegal immigration or affirmative action or pretty much any other topic.

6/1/2010 10:52:53 PM

^I admit making the mistake of discounting the antigovernment movement in Israel. Maybe they're not doing a very good job making their counter voice heard. Of course, I'm the first to admit that the act of civilians protesting in giant militaristic countries like Israel and America is pretty much useless. Politicians ignore them and powerful arms dealers lobby against them.

So I guess the only option left to them is to leave. Which only leaves the remaining populace united in their hatred.

Who is nobler? The man that makes a stand and separates himself entirely from evil, or the one that stays and try to sway opinion against it, being destroyed in the process?

[Edited on June 1, 2010 at 11:01 PM. Reason : .]

6/1/2010 10:58:45 PM

I disagree. If you love your country it is better to work hard to improve it rather than leave it.

Didn't one of the major conservative media voices say he was going to move if the health care bill passed? But he couldn't go through with it. (I think it was Limbaugh, can't remember though)

6/1/2010 11:24:08 PM

^^Are you just trolling? I'll go along with the idea that the US and Israel are militaristic and self-serving, but they are evil now? How do you figure?

[Edited on June 1, 2010 at 11:29 PM. Reason : 2]

6/1/2010 11:28:28 PM

Quote :

"So I guess the only option left to them is to leave. "

a classic liberal reaction, but probably not really the best strategy if you love your country and want to change its ways.

Still, it seems that you're using this as a way of excusing your own racism against israelis

Quote :

"Which only leaves the remaining populace united in their hatred."

indeed. convenient conclusions are convenient.

[Edited on June 1, 2010 at 11:31 PM. Reason : s]

6/1/2010 11:30:11 PM

Liberals are the most open-minded and accepting individuals in the world...except when it comes to Israelis, and Americans who are different from them

6/1/2010 11:58:03 PM

I suppose there's really no such thing as evil. We're all self-serving animals, no way around it. But in the common use of the word, building the wealth, security and land of one group by killing, removing and enforcing suffering on another is as evil as it gets.

Of course historically, some empires could never change. Destruction was the only solution, and woe be unto those that stuck around trying to change public opinion from within when the gates fell.

Interestingly, while Christians and Islam interpret the sin of Sodom as rampant homosexuality, some rabbinic traditions suggest that their fatal sin was more fundamentally the hoarding of property and lack of compassion to visitors and strangers.

6/2/2010 12:26:50 AM

Quote :

"I suppose there's really no such thing as evil. We're all self-serving animals, no way around it. But in the common use of the word, building the wealth, security and land of one group by killing, removing and enforcing suffering on another is as evil as it gets."

I like how you start out all relativistic and then quickly merge into an absolutist declaration of your worldview's definition of "evil"

nicely done.

6/2/2010 12:30:15 AM

Quote :

"lack of compassion to visitors and strangers"

if you go into the hood thinking you're the shit, and you test people and you get your ass beat, or you start swinging pipes and you get shot, whose fault is it

6/2/2010 12:34:33 AM

Looks like an Arab neighborhood to me.

6/2/2010 12:35:44 AM

looks like any neighborhood where people are used to adversity...thats certainly something we can all agree on...that people who live in ALL the fucked up war torn middle eastern countries have to constantly watch their backs and be aware of their surroundings...in that sense, everyone is just trying to survive

6/2/2010 12:37:44 AM

Just trying to survive.

6/2/2010 12:39:29 AM

speaking of other shit that hasnt happened

6/2/2010 12:40:57 AM

My point is we're not talking about some poor helpless little boy from the street, but the second most advanced military in the world with nuclear capability.

6/2/2010 12:46:33 AM

i'm just saying regardless of the governments in power, the PEOPLE of all of these war torn nations all share the common thread, unfortunately, of having to constantly be alert for deadly attacks, etc...much more than Americans

that speaks to the state of the region as a whole, and the people of the region...not just to a particular government or group of wannabe badass flotilla passengers

a good chunk of the middle east is straight fucked up...it takes more than one to tango

6/2/2010 12:48:25 AM

Quote :

"Hey if I say that I hope that no one dies, then I can support whatever side I want regardless of their actions. After all, I hope no one on either side dies! (but secretly I hope the jews die)"

This is not a black and white scenario like you want it to be. The suffering citizens of Gaza and the Israeli citizens that will die in successive intifadas (if this shit keeps up) really have little to do with all of the madness perpetrated by extremists on both sides. It's a bunch of innocent, normal people caught in the middle of a bunch of frothing jackasses. If you think Netanyahu is better than Ahmed Yassin then you have your head buried way up your ass.

Do you think leftists in Tel Aviv have much in common with racist settlers that beat the fuck out of Palestinians and steal their land? Of course not. Are they "on the same side"? Barely. I'd argue normal people on both sides of the conflict have much more in common than they do with their respective leaders. Normal people want to be left alone.

Again, I don't want any jews to die you unbelievable fucking idiot. This is precisely why I want Israel to stop shitting its foreign-relations diaper, because if they keep this up, they will lose soldiers and civilians.

6/2/2010 11:20:36 AM

ITT McDanger refuses to acknowledge the fact that Israel was set up by the "peace activists"

6/2/2010 11:28:48 AM

Re: Prawn Star

It's hard to put yourself in the position of many Palestinians. Think about the ridiculously low level of education they have. There aren't even sewers in many places in Gaza, or electricity. Hamas has been involved in establishing vital public services that truly benefit their community. Israel could do this too, but they'd rather spend the money on bombs, walls, and check points.

In many cases this is just an educational issue. Many of these people want to be good Muslims, but are lied to by Hamas about what's in the Koran (sound familiar?). Also, they don't know much about Israel or America except what they're told or what they read; there are only a couple of hundred (!) books on America that are available in Arabic. The vast majority of these are propaganda, focused on security issues, US foreign policy, US military intervention, etc. If anything, the US and Israel are losing an information war out there -- radicals are really setting the agenda and the attitudes of the people, and we're not doing anything to combat it except provide their worldview more evidence.

In the US, we're basically at the center of the world informationally. We have the internet. We can look up anything at any time, practically. We have sprawling libraries with countless books on practically any subject we want all over this country. It's hard to put yourself in the position of somebody who is limited by their access to information, both due to linguistic barriers AND logistic barriers.

Quote :

"ITT McDanger refuses to acknowledge the fact that Israel was set up by the "peace activists""

Yes they were provoked into violence once they blocked the boat, I don't think anybody's disputing that. It's dumb to attack people with guns. The people with guns shouldn't have been there, though, as they were part of a patently racist operation to deny an entire people basic goods, services, and the right to self-determination.

[Edited on June 2, 2010 at 11:30 AM. Reason : .]

6/2/2010 11:28:54 AM

then lets be honest ITT and complain about the blockade only. STFU about the "massacre" aboard the boat.

6/2/2010 11:44:10 AM

The killing was stupid and needless. Israel shouldn't have enforced the blockade. Doing so was immoral, and certainly contributed to the tragedy. The people on the boat did something stupid, but did not do something wrong.

6/2/2010 11:49:19 AM

Quote :

"ITT McDanger refuses to acknowledge the fact that Israel was set up by the "peace activists""

Israel was "set up" by Israeli's. How anyone defends that terrorist government amazes me.

*I am against Israel not Jews since people on TWW like to twist opposition to Israel as anti-semitic*

6/2/2010 12:04:40 PM

people also like to twist not agreeing with Obama's policies to hating black people

and he's half white

6/2/2010 12:08:55 PM

I don't care about that right now. This thread is not directly about Obama.

6/2/2010 12:09:55 PM

Quote :

"A senior officer in the Israel Defence Forces hinted that the IDF sabotaged the engines of five ships, saying ”they took care of them”, the Israeli newspaper Haaretz reported. Colonel Itzik Turgeman told the paper the army decided not to sabotage the largest ship, Mavi Marmara, fearing it would become stranded in the ocean and a humanitarian crisis would emerge."

By sabotaging the MV Rachel Marrie, still on route, Israel has prolonged the shitstorm.

I think Solinari would be a perfect candidate for the Mahal. Too bad I can't see his reply.
http://www.mahal-idf-volunteers.org/

6/2/2010 12:22:56 PM

Quote :

"In many cases this is just an educational issue. Many of these people want to be good Muslims, but are lied to by Hamas about what's in the Koran (sound familiar?). Also, they don't know much about Israel or America except what they're told or what they read; there are only a couple of hundred (!) books on America that are available in Arabic. The vast majority of these are propaganda, focused on security issues, US foreign policy, US military intervention, etc. If anything, the US and Israel are losing an information war out there -- radicals are really setting the agenda and the attitudes of the people, and we're not doing anything to combat it except provide their worldview more evidence. "

We need to fix this problem in our own country before even attempting to do anything in anyone else's country (if thats even something we need to be doing). If you can remove support of israel and/or make it contingent on allowing organized aid into palestine you can then start getting communications infrastructure established and from that point get them connected to the rest of the world. All these conflicts are, as you point out, organizations using religion to control uneducated masses for their own benefit. If you can educate them then the religion loses its control and everyone starts worrying about other shit. At that point their economy becomes the #1 issue and if you can setup a stable economy it goes a real long way to establishing peaceful relations.

6/2/2010 12:37:27 PM

It's religious but extra-curricular to the Koran. They're being lied to.

6/2/2010 12:44:30 PM

The easiest way to combat this is prosperity and access to outside media. Imprisoning them creates model criminals.

6/2/2010 12:56:14 PM

Quote :

"All these conflicts are, as you point out, organizations using religion to control uneducated masses for their own benefit. If you can educate them then the religion loses its control and everyone starts worrying about other shit. At that point their economy becomes the #1 issue and if you can setup a stable economy it goes a real long way to establishing peaceful relations."

Hello? George Bush? Wow, it sure sounds like the neo-con rationalization for going to war with Iraq.

6/2/2010 1:09:50 PM

Quote :

"Hello? George Bush? Wow, it sure sounds like the neo-con rationalization for going to war with Iraq."

kus ima shelcha

Shitty troll, shittier human. Either dishonest and unfunny or honest and stupider than a fucking brick.

6/2/2010 1:11:57 PM

STUPIDER

6/2/2010 1:25:07 PM

Am I really being called out by a conservative for using American English?

6/2/2010 1:33:45 PM

Quote :

"It's religious but extra-curricular to the Koran. They're being lied to. "

yea thats how religion works. It doesn't even matter if they told them whats actually in the koran because that shit isn't true either. The only way to get them or us out of the cycle (religion is correct because religion said so) you need an alternate and more reasonable viewpoint which will only come through open communication which leads to economic prosperity.

In addition you need to also not attack their current traditions and instead provide examples of how doing things differently can have better results and let them pick. If you say "Hey, you're using the wrong koran™ you need to get correct koran™" they'll just ignore you. Instead you need to say "Hey check it out, you can provide better for your family by doing this thing"

Its a change of rhetoric but it makes it much easier to get your point across if you're offering alternatives instead of hating on their shit. Another example in the US, in the infinite stupidity of the global warming folks they come in and say "Hey oil is bad gas is bad you should stop that and do what I say. Also please ignore that what Im saying benefits me directly". Instead it should be "hey check it out if we build more nukes and provide individual tax credits for renewable energy not only will you personally save a shitload of money but it will make our country more secure"

6/2/2010 2:00:18 PM

Quote :

"If you say "Hey, you're using the wrong koran™ you need to get correct koran™" they'll just ignore you. Instead you need to say "Hey check it out, you can provide better for your family by doing this thing""

Except this isn't true, and moderate Islam is being successfully marketed in the West Bank by activists such as Muhammed Dajani.

6/2/2010 2:06:07 PM

yea but how do they do it? Do they come in and declare "You are wrong! This is correct!" or do they say "You can still be muslim, but if you make a few changes you can improve these things in your life" Im not arguing that you cant change their opinions, im saying the current way we in the US go about trying to change people's opinions most often results in more opposition and if we try that over in the middle east it wont work there either.

Gotta win dem hearts and minds.

6/2/2010 2:09:40 PM

From what I can tell, the second tactic is used (gentle education). They WANT to know about Islam.

6/2/2010 2:14:52 PM

more like gentile education, am i rite *adjusts necktie*

6/2/2010 3:15:22 PM

lol

6/2/2010 3:15:49 PM

Weapons found on board.

6/3/2010 1:20:22 AM

Don't forget they had some bullet-proof vests with the red crescent(cross) logo on them. Those are weapons too!

Next ship set to arrive tomorrow.



Three more ships coming from malaysia.

[Edited on June 3, 2010 at 1:39 AM. Reason : .]

6/3/2010 1:25:43 AM

I hope those motherfuckers catch a bad case of torpedo-itis right in their bow.

6/3/2010 7:24:16 AM

well my chair isnt weapon either until I pick it up and swing it at someone.

6/3/2010 8:33:46 AM