you still are not showing me any law that says his employer can't fire him. gov't or not... Freedom of speech does not extend to your employment. sorry.

9/18/2010 8:26:48 PM

Freedom of speech does extend to his employment, to an extent (and it does to this extent).

His employer is discriminating on the basis of his lawful, religious expression outside of the workplace and out of uniform.

*If the ban on discrimination based on religion in employment doesn't apply here, when in the world would it apply?* If it doesn't apply in this case, then it can't really apply......ever. This was not at work. Not representing his employer. Used no unlawful activity. Good gracious, if that's not protected, nothing is.

(By the way, I disagree with the law as is, and think employers should be able to discriminate against employees and customers in any way they wish)

9/18/2010 9:08:02 PM

Quote :

"His employer is discriminating on the basis of his lawful, religious expression outside of the workplace and out of uniform. "

but there is no law protecting him from having a private party use his speech against him. Freedom of speech applies to the government restricting someone's ability to speak. He was in no way prevented from making his statement. He is not in jail. He is not being sued. The legislature also didn't pass a law mandating he be fired. His employer exercised what was most likely a stipulation in his employment contract: that he can be fired at any time for any reason.


now, it may have been an expression based on religious belief, but unless he can show specifically that his religion advocates burning Quran's in front of mosques, then he will have a hard time winning his case. Moreover, his employer can say that they didn't fire him for his religious expression, but rather for him engaging in a provocative act that endangered their company/firm (in this case a gov't office).

9/18/2010 9:39:11 PM

His employer was a state government, and yes, for any level of government to decide which extra-curricular religious practices (especially when they are legal) are acceptable in their employees is unconstitutional.

The State of New Jersey is directly saying "We cannot and will not hire or keep any employee who has X religious belief. Period."

The State of New Jersey is not allowed to do that.

He does not have to have any religious justification for burning the Qu'ran. All he has to say is "Doing so is an expression of my religion." Courts frown on any State attempts to judge the legitimacy, sincerity, or reasonableness of religious practices that do not break the law.

If it were anything but the Qu'ran, this thing would be a slam dunk. He would still win if he sued. It just might be tougher given prevailing opinion.

[Edited on September 18, 2010 at 9:48 PM. Reason : a]

9/18/2010 9:46:58 PM

Quote :

"The State of New Jersey is directly saying "We cannot and will not hire or keep any employee who has X religious belief. Period." "

Not at all. They are saying we will fire those who put our employees in danger.

Quote :

"He does not have to have any religious justification for burning the Qu'ran."

In order to claim that it is an expression of religion he must. I can't just wake up tomorrow and say "my religion says that get to miss every second tuesday, mmkay?" and then have to accept it. There must be some support for it.

9/18/2010 9:49:59 PM

Quote :

"Not at all. They are saying we will fire those who put our employees in danger"

Where did they say this? All I saw was "You do this, and you're fired." The angle was much more one of religious intolerance by NJ than even some pretended effort at protection.

They say he "violated their code of ethics." That's even worse. There is no way that means he endangered his co-workers. It's probably as unconstitutional and stifling as the campus speech codes of the past decade.

But, if it's done even with the idea of helping some poor, persecuted minority, any ridiculous government suppression of speech may be held up.

Whereas, I work with two black guys who have genuinely and earnestly expressed a desire to kill white people for being white, wear "kill whitey" shirts outside of work, and give the black power salute to each other on the clock....and there ain't no way in hell any court would respect an employer's right to fire them.

Quote :

"In order to claim that it is an expression of religion he must. I can't just wake up tomorrow and say "my religion says that get to miss every second tuesday, mmkay?" and then have to accept it. There must be some support for it."

You're changing the case. Christians who refuse to work Sunday cannot sue when they refuse to show up for a scheduled Sunday shift and get fired. Their religious belief prevents them from doing the job. That is not true in this case. There is nothing about burning a Qu'ran that keeps him from being a conductor.

[Edited on September 18, 2010 at 10:01 PM. Reason : f]

9/18/2010 9:56:09 PM

Quote :

"Where did they say this?"

employers know better than to comment on personnel matters. you know this.

Quote :

"There is nothing about burning a Qu'ran that keeps him from being a conductor."

I can see plenty of problems with it. Not the actual burning of the Koran, but the act of doing something incredibly inflammatory.

Quote :

"You're changing the case."

OK, then, let's change it to "my religion says that on tuesday I am to smear myself in feces and walk around naked, even at work. make accommodations for me, ok?" They are gonna demand to see proof of my religion. And when I can't show it, they are gonna tell me to fuck off.

9/18/2010 10:03:34 PM

If there were a protection issue, they would have directly mentioned a protection issue. Publicly, that's as airtight as it gets, as far as public opinion anyway.

So, if Christians were violent about, oh, I don't know, people desecrating Sunday by going out to eat, then NJ could fire anyone who went out to eat on a Sunday....because the action provoked the Christians and insulted their day?

I'll repeat - I think any employer should be able to fire anyone for any reason, at any time, unless they contractually agreed otherwise.

But this is asinine double-speak at its worst. The State of NJ is not tolerant and open-minded toward religion. This was not done for harmony, or a peaceful work environment, or for protection. They fired this guy because they don't like his religious views. Period. And that's fine in my mind, if they were a private employer. But it's not legal, and they are openly stating the people with certain religious convictions are not welcome as state employees. That's a problem, legally.

Quote :

"OK, then, let's change it to "my religion says that on tuesday I am to smear myself in feces and walk around naked, even at work. make accommodations for me, ok?" They are gonna demand to see proof of my religion. And when I can't show it, they are gonna tell me to fuck off."

Nope, they are not going to demand proof of your religion. They are going to call you a health hazard and fire you. And it will stand.

If, however, your religion required you to wear pink socks and a beanie cap, with a nose-ring from the Church of Body Modification.....you would stand a very reasonable shot at winning any lawsuit if you got fired. Or if you didn't get fired, but you weren't allowed to wear your pink socks, beanie and nose ring. You could win that.

[Edited on September 18, 2010 at 10:16 PM. Reason : a]

9/18/2010 10:14:26 PM

my religion requires me to yell "NIGGER NIGGER NIGGER" at the top of my lungs at 8am, 12noon, and 3pm" every day. make accommodations.

9/18/2010 10:20:49 PM

That's right, if we get rid of the fact that this was off employer property, off employer time, and didn't have any co-workers anywhere nearby or associated with it, then yes, and that only reports of the burner's non-arrest made it a public thing......it's analogous.

You don't have a right to much of any speech, political or religious, on your employer's clock.

So yes, if that were your religion, you could be hired for 2nd and 3rd shift here, and no, you could not be fired for yelling that off the clock, assuming it did not bring you legal trouble on its own.

[Edited on September 18, 2010 at 10:42 PM. Reason : a]

9/18/2010 10:41:55 PM

but I have kids and I need to be home for them during 2nd and 3rd shift and am a single parent.

9/18/2010 10:45:11 PM

Well, the argument is still possible, honestly. You would definitely win any case brought to you about 2nd/3rd shift.....and that is what this case is about. He's yelling "NIGGER NIGGER NIGGER" in his off time.

Nobody really has any free speech rights at their work anyway. There may be some developments here as Muslims have probably sued recently to get the freedom to pray at their preferred intervals. If it proved to be a reasonable accomodation to let NIGGER NIGGER NIGGER guy go into his office at those times, then he might win too.

9/18/2010 10:53:00 PM

Interesting update!

A NJ car dealer had offered the pastor a $14,000 Hyundai Accent if he didn't go ahead with the burning. And since he didn't, he will get the car.

The pastor will donate it to an organization that helps abused Muslim women!!!

Quote :

"US pastor wins car for canceling Qur’an burning By BETH DEFALCO | AP Published: Oct 15, 2010 22:53 Updated: Oct 15, 2010 22:53 SOUTH BRUNSWICK, New Jersey: An American pastor who drew international criticism by threatening to burn a copy of the Qur’an has ended up with an unlikely reward — a free car. At the height of the controversy, New Jersey car dealer Brad Benson offered Florida pastor Terry Jones a 2011 Hyundai Accent worth $14,200, if he would not fulfill his promise to burn copies of the Muslim holy book on the anniversary of the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks. In the end, Jones didn’t proceed with his promise — which probably would have outraged Muslims around the world. But he told The Associated Press on Thursday that the offer Benson had made in one of his dealership’s quirky radio ads was not the reason. Jones said he only heard about it a few weeks after Sept. 11. However, that delay hasn’t stopped the pastor from Gainesville, Florida, from wanting to collect the prize. Benson said he was surprised when a representative for Jones called to collect the car. “They said unless I was doing false advertising, they would like to arrange to pick up the car,” Benson recalled. At first he thought it was a hoax, so Benson asked Jones to send in a copy of his driver’s license. He did. Jones said he plans to donate the car to an organization that helps abused Muslim women. “We are not trying to profit from this. We are not keeping the car for ourselves,” Jones said by telephone from California, where he was taping television appearances. The pastor will have to pick up the car at Brad Benson Mitsubishi Hyundai in South Brunswick, New Jersey, so he can fill out paperwork. No date has been set for the handover. When Jones threatened to burn copies of the Qur’an — which many Muslims would view as sacrilege — his plan drew opposition across the world. President Barack Obama appealed to him on television, and Defense Secretary Robert Gates called him personally. Gen. David Petraeus, head of the US mission in Afghanistan, said carrying out the plan would have endangered American troops. Benson, a former center for the New York Giants football team, said he originally offered Jones use of a car for a year if he refused to go ahead with his plan. “I just didn’t think that was a good thing for our country right now,” Benson said. He’s now giving Jones the car outright because he doesn’t want to be connected to whatever the Florida pastor does with it. “I don’t want to be involved in the politics of that,” Benson said. Before he made his decision, Benson asked listeners to weigh in on whether he should honor his promise. More than 2,600 people responded by phone and e-mail, and the vast majority, Benson said, urged him to keep his word. One caller suggested painting sayings from various religious books — the Qur’an, the Talmud, the King James Bible — on the car. “What you didn’t say was what the car was going to look like when you gave it to him,” the caller said. Another caller told Benson to “be a man” and keep his promise. And some encouraged Benson to pick his own charity to get a car. In 2003, Benson offered another newsmaker — Saddam Hussein — a new car if he fled Iraq. That commercial wasn’t as successful, and Benson pulled the ad after two days, replacing it with one apologizing for any offense that was taken. The commercial was part of a regular “idiot award” segment Benson has singled out others for, including actress Lindsey Lohan, actor Mel Gibson and baseball star Roger Clemens. “We don’t have your typical car commercial,” Benson said. But they are memorable — and effective. Three years ago, he was selling 60 cars a month, he said. Today, that number is between 500 and 600 — making him one of the state’s most successful dealers."

[Edited on October 16, 2010 at 6:50 AM. Reason : ]

10/16/2010 6:48:25 AM

A good ending of sorts!

10/18/2010 4:17:42 PM