Paying other countries is a valid foreign policy strategy, and has a better cost/benefit than either an all out war, or letting them run amok against you.

2/13/2011 8:25:52 PM

Not when your own country is hopelessly in debt.

The only way to win the middle east is not to play.

2/13/2011 8:38:43 PM

We're not "hopelessly" in debt.

And we have to play, we need stability in the energy market, and we have obligations to our allies in the region. Not to mention that there are emerging markets there that we can't just cede to china.

It would be the great if the world were as simple as you seem to think it is, but sadly that's not the case.

2/13/2011 8:41:26 PM

The world, and your place in it, is as simple as you make it. I'm willing to sacrifice "energy stability" to put our own affairs in order. Call me simplistic if you will, but I'm the type that prefers real money in the bank to a high credit line. Desperate decisions can be more easily avoided with the former.

And yes, we are hopeless. The solutions being proposed by even the most radical tea baggers are mere drops in a flood. Austerity is inevitable.

[Edited on February 13, 2011 at 8:48 PM. Reason : .]

2/13/2011 8:45:42 PM

You're not simplistic, that would be generous. You're short-sighted.

Your strategy would lead to the ruination of the US.

Just like merely balancing your own personal checkbook doesn't guarantee your success, our gov. has to make the right moves on multiple fronts. And contrary to what some people like to think, the budget obviously isn't the most crucial of those fronts.

It doesn't make any sense to push budget issues to the detriment of all other issues, including the broader economy, our safety, scientific progress, maintaining our technological lead, social progress, and a host of other issues.

2/13/2011 8:52:43 PM

NOW we're getting somewhere! I won't stop until I squeeze the ad hominem out of you. You're so very close already.

In the last decade we spent 20 Trillion Dollars on war, and quite a bit less, insignificant really, on ... the broader economy(after-the-fact sky is falling bailouts don't count), our safety(as in my personal, walk to the store at midnight, safety), scientific progress, maintaining our hahahaha lead, social progress I'm sorry I can't keep typing this I'm laughing so hard.

[Edited on February 13, 2011 at 9:07 PM. Reason : .]

2/13/2011 8:59:18 PM

Ad hom? What ad hom?

2/13/2011 9:02:48 PM

Ah, see I've spoiled the mood. Drats. I was so close to climax, too. Please, continue.

I find it interesting that the police are now protesting, claiming mistreatment by their employer and the mobs, being named a scapegoat for the country's ills. "We were just following orders!" comes their desperate cry.

[Edited on February 13, 2011 at 9:16 PM. Reason : .]

2/13/2011 9:13:04 PM

^ All they have to do is balance their budget and tame their debt, and they'll be all peachy, right?

2/13/2011 9:23:26 PM

Quote :

"Paying other countries is a valid foreign policy strategy"

No, it's really not. Because at some point you have to stop paying them, and then it's over. Thus, you haven't really built any lasting relationship and you are back where you started. Even worse, you end up pissing people off in the process. How has propping up Mubarak worked out? How did it work out with the Shah in Iran? What about Saddam?

2/13/2011 9:28:54 PM

^umm... you realize we give money to LOTS of countries around the world? Did you not see any of the wikileaks memos regarding this? Mubarak actually worked out really well. We'll probably continue to pay the next guy too.

And you're suggesting there is some way to deal with a country to develop a "lasting relationship"? LOL. Is that like "true love" on the international politics stage? haha...

It doesn't make any sense for a country as big and powerful as the US NOT to pay other countries to be on our side. This is in the foreign policy 101 handbook, and has be SOP for at least 3000 years (they recently incorporated this mechanism into the most recent CIV game too, fyi).

[Edited on February 13, 2011 at 9:34 PM. Reason : ]

2/13/2011 9:33:18 PM

Quote :

"How has propping up Mubarak worked out?"

Except that we prop up the military and not necessarily the dictator. . .

2/13/2011 9:34:38 PM

actually, it does make sense not to. when you meddle in the affairs of other people, they come to hate you. That's simply how it is. Paying to have friends doesn't really give you friends. It just gives you people who want to suck at your teat.

2/13/2011 9:35:24 PM

Quote :

"actually, it does make sense not to. when you meddle in the affairs of other people, they come to hate you. That's simply how it is. Paying to have friends doesn't really give you friends. It just gives you people who want to suck at your teat."

Except we've been meddling. To draw out your analogy, if you meddle in someone's affairs, you can't say "oops, sorry!" and not expect retribution. Not to mention that if we have any interest in maintaining our level of relative luxury, we have to keep meddling. Otherwise things "equalizing" in the short term is actually bad for America. Our best course of action is to slowly bring other people up to our inflated level of posh, not let America get dragged down like Conservatives implicitly advocate for.

For a national government, the cost of dealing with the retribution is greater than the cost of buying friends. And who knows, eventually they might be "real" friends (which could happen if their new leadership is more secular).

2/13/2011 9:40:07 PM

Quote :

"Our best course of action is to slowly bring other people up to our inflated level of posh"

Sure, but that is NOT accomplished by simply paying people off.

Quote :

"To draw out your analogy, if you meddle in someone's affairs, you can't say "oops, sorry!" and not expect retribution."

Right, which is why you don't fucking start to begin with.

Quote :

"For a national government, the cost of dealing with the retribution is greater than the cost of buying friends."

That's like arguing that all a crack-head really needs is more crack.

2/13/2011 9:53:11 PM

Quote :

"Right, which is why you don't fucking start to begin with. "

LOL...

but that doesn't solve our current problems, and that clearly means that your solution is the wrong one. Don't you see this...?

Quote :

"That's like arguing that all a crack-head really needs is more crack."

It's more like a cigarette smoker using a nicotine patch.

[Edited on February 13, 2011 at 9:55 PM. Reason : ]

2/13/2011 9:54:14 PM

Quote :

"but that doesn't solve our current problems, and that clearly means that your solution is the wrong one. Don't you see this...?"

So, you advocate that we keep doing something that we know is bad for us and that we know will blow up in our face. Got it.

Quote :

"It's more like a cigarette smoker using a nicotine patch."

If only we were weaning ourselves off of the nicotine, then sure. But your suggestion sure offers no such weaning

2/13/2011 9:58:14 PM

Quote :

"So, you advocate that we keep doing something that we know is bad for us and that we know will blow up in our face. Got it. "

Where have I said it was bad for us? I've said repeatedly it's good for us, as the alternative is a more costly war.

Picking the wrong sides is what blows up in our face, not greasing our relations a bit.

[Edited on February 13, 2011 at 10:09 PM. Reason : ]

2/13/2011 10:09:30 PM

And you don't think that paying to keep a dictator in power is "picking sides"?

2/13/2011 10:10:05 PM

Are you talking about egypt? Because we weren't paying to keep him in power, we were paying for his cooperation (and probably also to let us torture people in egypt). We weren't paying Mubarak, we were paying Egypt.

2/13/2011 10:11:30 PM

and who do you think ended up getting all of that money? let me give you a hint: it wasn't the Egyptian people. And what do you think he ended up doing with that money? let me give you a hint: it probably helped him stay in power.

2/13/2011 10:12:22 PM

haha are you kidding? You realize Mubarak just stepped down...? He lost? And we really don't care? We are just hoping the next guy is on board with our plans, and we'll pay them too if we have to.

2/13/2011 10:14:44 PM

yeah. he stayed in power for 30 years. he really "lost." he has billions of our dollars in his bank account. he really "lost."

2/13/2011 10:15:16 PM

Yeah, he lost. And now it's on to the next guy.

2/13/2011 10:20:42 PM

yep. all that crack-head needs is another rock

2/13/2011 10:58:55 PM

Are suggesting the United States introduced crack to keep the (muslim) brothers down?

2/13/2011 11:05:20 PM

I think it'd be better for everyone involved if, instead of the United States borrowing money from China and then passing it out to various countries, China gave them that money directly. You eliminate the middle man, and everyone wins.

2/14/2011 2:02:21 AM

There was a small protest again in Iran today.

2/14/2011 9:27:09 AM

Anti-government demonstrations swell in Iran; clashes reported
http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/meast/02/14/iran.protests/index.html?hpt=T2

Quote :

"Over the weekend, Iranian authorities blocked the word "Bahman" -- the 11th month of the Persian calendar -- from internet searches within the country, according to an opposition website. The measure appeared to be an effort by Iranian authorities to obstruct access to several websites that are promoting the rally -- the 25th day of Bahman, Saham News reported Saturday."

2/14/2011 3:13:29 PM

Stay classy, Egypt.

http://www.wusa9.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=136238

CBS Correspondent Attacked, Sexually Assaulted

Quote :

"In the crush of the mob, she [Lara Logan] was separated from her crew. She was surrounded and suffered a brutal and sustained sexual assault and beating before being saved by a group of women and an estimated 20 Egyptian soldiers. She reconnected with the CBS team, returned to her hotel and returned to the United States on the first flight the next morning. She is currently in the hospital recovering."

[Edited on February 15, 2011 at 4:17 PM. Reason : .]

2/15/2011 4:16:25 PM

woah, some reports that Mubarak is dead

[Edited on February 15, 2011 at 5:09 PM. Reason : rumors itt]

2/15/2011 4:31:43 PM

yep. i wonder if she will be stoned to death for being raped...

2/15/2011 7:21:42 PM

Egyptian men in general are notorious for sexual harassment and assaults on women in public. There was a BBC article a couple of years ago which mentioned some horrible statistics on the percentage of women in Cairo who have been sexually harassed.

During the recent protests, one CNN commentator was talking about why there were no women in the streets (but there were in protests in Iran last year). He said during similar anti-government protests several years ago, women DID come out onto the streets as well, but they were groped and assaulted by the police and MUBARAK SUPPORTERS ---> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4600133.stm

Sad.

According to this video, 60% of all women face harassment DAILY in Cairo.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvNoOmSUHag

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7514567.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8314091.stm

Quote :

"Being an Egyptian woman is to accept sexual harassment as daily routine, according to a recent report from the Egyptian Center for Womens Rights (ECWR). The study outlines, 60 percent of Egyptian women and 98 percent of foreign women are harassed on a daily basis. This is not a new problem. In fact, the problem has been simmering silently since the fall of 2006, when dozens of men and boys attacked and assaulted women outside a downtown a Cairo cinema. In a mob style attack, the perpetrators attempted to grope and tear at any passing womans clothes in the October attack. "

Quote :

"SEXUAL HARASSMENT IN EGYPT Experienced by 98% of foreign women visitors Experienced by 83% of Egyptian women 62% of Egyptian men admitted harassing women 53% of Egyptian men blame women for 'bringing it on' Source: Egyptian Centre for Women's Rights"

These were the men the whole world was cheering for.

2/16/2011 5:36:20 AM

Looks like Libya is brewing:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110216/wl_nm/us_libya_rioting_benghazi

Quote :

"Hundreds of people clashed with police and government supporters overnight in the eastern Libyan city of Benghazi, a witness and local media said, in a rare show of unrest in the oil exporting country."

[Edited on February 16, 2011 at 9:50 AM. Reason : 1]

2/16/2011 9:48:32 AM

$70 billion?

Quote :

"Mubarak is out -- but he may take unimaginable wealth out with him. Estimates of his stolen fortune range as high as $70 billion, more than a third of the entire Egyptian economy. Time is running out for world governments to freeze Mubarak’s assets before they disappear into a maze of obscure bank accounts -- like so many other dictators' stolen fortunes. Switzerland has already frozen his finances, and some EU ministers have offered help -- but without an immediate global outcry, action may come too slowly to stop the Mubarak billions from vanishing. Let's call on leaders of all nations to ensure that Egypt's money is returned to the people. Our petition will be delivered, if we reach 500,000 signatures, to G20 finance ministers when they meet this Friday in Paris. Let's add our names now and spread the word! https://secure.avaaz.org/en/mubaraks_fortune_m/?vl Millions of Egyptians live on less than $2 per day -- yet experts say that corruption costs Egypt more than $6 billion in public money per year. The Mubaraks themselves have benefited massively from a web of business deals, crony-capitalist privatization schemes, and state-guaranteed investments throughout Mubarak's 30 years as president. Estimates of their wealth run from a "mere" $2-3 billion to the staggering $70 billion figure, which would make Hosni Mubarak the world's richest man. And 25 senior government officials are already under investigation for amassing fortunes above $1 billion while serving under him. But the days may finally be over when corrupt rulers can escape with their fortunes intact. The new United Nations Convention Against Corruption explicitly calls for the return of corruptly-gained assets to the countries of origin, and Egypt's military government has already asked European Union governments to freeze Mubarak's fortune. The key question now is whether action will come fast enough: all the laws in the world won't help if the Mubarak billions are shuffled out of sight before authorities can seize them."

2/16/2011 12:40:16 PM

I wonder why Lara Logan was targeted: http://www.zimbio.com/Lara+Logan

http://celebgalz.com/lara-logan-34d-swimsuits/

2/16/2011 3:28:59 PM

Arabs have been emboldened. Good for them. Perhaps they can get their rights which have been trampled upon by dictators and kings who have held back on giving them their rights by keeping them busy in rhetoric about Israel and Zionists for several decades.

Next in queue:

Bahrain
Libya
Yemen
Oman
Iran
Algeria
Mauritania

Anti-government protests are brewing in all those countries.

Eventually, hopefully, one day:

Saudi Arabia
UAE
Qatar
Kuwait
Syria
Jordan
Morocco

2/17/2011 4:12:54 PM

^^Surely it has nothing to do with religion.

2/17/2011 4:35:07 PM

^^^She was asking for it, right? I'm sure it has nothing to do with the culture or the fact that they were chanting "Jew! Jew!" and had accused her of being a spy previously.

2/17/2011 5:36:16 PM

The Common Citizen

Amazing how quickly a single desperate act of frustration by a common citizen can drastically and somewhat peacefully reshape the destiny of an entire region. Perhaps the entire world.

Today, I almost feel inspired as I imagine my parents did during the fall of the Berlin Wall. Today, there is hope for the Middle East. Tangible hope. And it's all because of a simple man's justifiable contempt for the inexcusable actions of his government.

Who would believe that the unforgiveable and illegal harassment by a Tunisian government official of Mohamed Bouazizi would lead to all this? That Tunisia's government would soon crumble under the weight of massive peaceful demonstrations sparked by his self-immolation?

Or that Bouazizi’s imitators in Egypt would lead to a popular uprising and today’s outcome only weeks later? Hundreds of thousands of Egyptians have overthrown a superpower and crucial US-ally eight times Tunisia’s size with an economy five times as large. It has taken weeks, but they have done it without ammunition. Without bombs. At times, without communication. Only an abundance of determination.

And hardly a shot was fired.

Why be inspired?

Because besides Pyramids, Egypt controls the Suez Canal. They border Israel. They’re infinitely valuable in Risk, but I digress a bit. For my entire lifetime they have been ruled by a US-supported dictator who has maintained stability in the region, but has filched BILLIONS from his people and institutionalized the practice of TORTURE. Torturing local dissidents, innocents, even the terrorists suspects we captured and extradited abroad to be “questioned.”

Despite former Head of State President Hosni Mubarak’s unquestionably brutal and greedy past, and his government’s attempts to incite the protestors to violence (a tactic used to make a hard-line government crackdown necessary), the old man did not order his police or army to fire indiscriminately on his rivals. Even as they angrily marched on his palace by the thousands. Perhaps these men DO respect the lives and wills of their people after all.

Though Vice President Biden declared scarcely a week ago that Mubarak was not a dictator, the Swiss have frozen his and his family’s accounts already. That's reason enough to be inspired, but it isn’t the day to celebrate his restraint or struggles at the ATM. No, Egypt’s people are rushing our reporters at Tahrir Square today with an incredible message.

They want us to know that they want what they have never had: a democracy. Freedom and self-determination. Jobs to match their educations. To live on more than $2 per day. Simple human dignity from their government.

The calls for our destruction or that of Israel are absent on the Arab Street. If you listen closely, you will hear that they have rebelled only to demand what most of us take for granted; a will of their own.

Who knows what the future holds for the emerging Egyptian republic now led by the head of the Supreme Council of the Armed Forces and head of the Supreme Court. Or what will become of the North African region at large. But what we do know sounds like a good start. And we know who started the historic pan-Arab movement, though he is not around to witness the fruits of his sacrifice.

Fate and chance remain ever alive as significant factors in our world's great history. That is the inspiring lesson from the accomplishments of this young, leadlerless, and largely peaceful movement. One common citizen's frustrated act of protest can still lead to historic and unprecedented change in a region's political order. Butterflies in Africa eat your hearts out.

Other Arab nations have made quick democratic reforms or even bribed their people with food and grants to prevent the same outcome as similar events continue to rock other nations on the Arabian Peninsula. Will Bouazizi’s Revolution spread to Bahrain or overtake Yemen? Will it continue to Iran?

The common citizens of the world wait with baited breath to find out.

tl;dr

Yo Tunisia, I'm really happy for you and I'mma let you finish, but Egypt had one of the best popular revolts of all time!

[Edited on February 17, 2011 at 10:16 PM. Reason : late to the party]

2/17/2011 10:16:09 PM

I appreciate the solidarity with the common man but it's a bit early for all that rainbows and happiness stuff.

Like you said, all we've got is a good start. There's a lot of room for a bad finish, and a lot of history to suggest it.

They have seen now what massive protests can accomplish even in the face of a strong-willed dictatorship. When one or two years down the line their economic situation is not remarkably better, will they show restraint in using the same methods to topple a democratic regime? Will the regime, thus threatened, abandon democracy in favor of harsher measures? Or, when elections occur, will groups now seemingly moderate or marginal come to the fore?

You say that calls for the destruction of the US and Israel are absent from the "Arab Street." I say you've got not good reason to think that they're absent from anything other than the news.

I'm hopeful. This could be the start of a beautiful thing that more or less peacefully brings freedom to a large swath of the world, and not just freedom but stability and prosperity. But I'm also wary. It could be the start of other things, less pleasant things. I'm glad Mubarak's gone but I'm not about to start ringing the bells yet.

2/17/2011 10:44:30 PM

Those are definitely some grab-able tits.

2/17/2011 11:18:11 PM

2/17/2011 11:47:49 PM

Bahrain and Libya beat and kill the shit out of protesters

Obama condemns the violence.

Protests in Bahrain were extremely peaceful. Still, the police and military descended upon the tents and beat them with truncheons and shot them with birsdshot. At least 4 dead and dozens injured. Oppressors.

As for Libya, I don't know how peaceful they were being, but several dozen are dead

2/19/2011 2:32:35 AM

Quote :

"yep. i wonder if she will be stoned to death for being raped..."

well, except for that LITTLE fact that she wasn't actually raped.

2/19/2011 5:16:37 AM

Quote :

""Libya is at a crossroads. If we do not agree today on reforms, we will not be mourning 84 people, but thousands of deaths, and rivers of blood will run through Libya," Kadhafi's son said in a speech that gave a lower death toll. But Saif al-Islam Kadhafi's threats betrayed a note of desperation, and he suggested that the eastern city of Benghazi, an epicentre of the unprecedented protests, was now out of government control. "At this moment there are tanks being driven by civilians in Benghazi," he said, dismissing the uprising as a foreign plot aimed at installing Islamist rule and insisting it would be ruthlessly crushed. "We will take up arms... we will fight to the last bullet," he said. "We will destroy seditious elements."

Tank on Tank violence.

This aint no Egypt shit.

2/20/2011 10:48:34 PM

^^ I seriously doubt that those fine Islamic courts would care about it either way.

she had some kind of sexual contact with someone other than her husband. stone that whore, right Trap?

[Edited on February 20, 2011 at 11:23 PM. Reason : ]

2/20/2011 11:15:49 PM

^ I strongly protest your insinuation that I would like her to be punished for what happened to her.

Perhaps you should read my post where I exposed (to TWW) and condemned the extremely widespread prevalence of sexual harassment in Egypt.

Don't you dare do that again.

2/21/2011 2:26:28 AM

I, however, would like those barbarians who sexually molested her to be punished by hundreds of lashings, as per Islamic law.

2/21/2011 6:48:04 AM

What do people mean when they keep talking about "sexual harassment"? The term is vague but it keeps getting used over and over again. I understand for the case of the journalist (due to privacy), but what form of sexual harassment is common in Egypt in general? Surely we should now more specifically than what the term indicates.

I mean, are rapes a problem? Is grabbing a problem? Are taunts and cat-calling a problems? I mean, is it like free grabs all over the place? Hands up the clothes? Really, there's some social connection that we are all missing by the S.H. term which doesn't tell us much.

2/21/2011 11:31:13 AM