^aHAHAHAHAHA i needed that.

im of to take a test. wish me luck.







[Edited on February 4, 2011 at 7:35 AM. Reason : i'm also very proud of almost everyone in here.... 4 pages of civilaity . ]

2/4/2011 7:25:06 AM

Regarding epigenetics, this is why I said it's not necessarily your environment:

Quote :

"Epigenetic: the term that refers to any factor that can affect gene function without change in the genotype. Some examples include DNA methylation, chromatin structure, histone modifications, and transcription factor binding that change genome structure and affect gene expression without changing the primary DNA sequence."

Transcription factor binding happens a lot within the DNA sequence without the aid of your diet, lifestyle, etc... As does DNA methylation with certain disorders, aka genomic imprinting... The basic way to explain imprinting is that because the gene is methylated, it is silenced (some say turned off but it's not really turned off, just doesn't produce anything.. but can still be functional, if that makes sense). That imprinting happens when your genes are passed to you from your mother or father, and depending on the gene you will receive a functional copy from one parent and a silenced copy from another parent. Except, the methylation doesn't stay there.. When you reproduce, that methylation from whatever parent you had your gene methylated by will be erased and your body will methylate (or not) that gene. For example, Prader-Willi Syndrome and Angelman Syndrome are two distinctly different disorders depending on which copy of chromosome 15 is silenced. If the maternal copy is silenced, it causes Angelman... If the paternal copy is silenced, it causes PWS. That's obviously not a change from lifestyle or diet, and it's something no one can help.



I don't know why, but it's things like this that make me believe in God even more so. The amount of detail that goes into our bodies (and life in general), to me, doesn't seem like it could be strictly from chance.

2/4/2011 9:16:57 AM

Quote :

"I don't know why, but it's things like this that make me believe in God even more so. The amount of detail that goes into our bodies (and life in general), to me, doesn't seem like it could be strictly from chance. "

Just because something is complex doesn’t mean it’s magical.

3.5 Billion years is a LOOONNGGGG time, almost unfathomable.

2/4/2011 9:22:13 AM

Quote :

"When you have a DirecTV salesman come to your door to tell you why you should buy their product, do you go off and tell people DirecTV is "forcing" their products on you? I bet you don't."

Quote :

"yea, but i don't think the directv guy is telling you you're going to hell if you don't buy his product."

Just throwing this out there: if somebody is an atheist, then they don't believe in hell either, correct? So who cares if someone tells them they will go to hell? I find it odd that somebody can be offended by the threat of going to a place they think is imaginary.

2/4/2011 9:25:33 AM

I never said that just because it was complex, it was magical. It's not about the complexity, it's about how all these factors work in concert together that amaze me. You don't have to be so condescending.

2/4/2011 9:33:52 AM

Quote :

"doesn't seem like it could be strictly from chance."

it's not chance though. Traits weren't taken out of a grab bag and thrown together, it was a gradual process that perfected us into what we are today over however many generations and species. And there are plenty of things that don't make sense which an intelligent creator would have had no reason to include.

2/4/2011 9:37:04 AM

of course he does, this is the wolfweb.

2/4/2011 9:37:11 AM

^2 Obviously... I meant chance as in the big bang theory, just random burst of energy. Or life spontaneously coming together from random elements (thank you Smithsonian for showing dancing sodium..). And trust me, I totally get the traits thing (that's what I'll be working with over half the time) - even the way traits are conserved within a species or slightly change to spawn new species amazes me.

[Edited on February 4, 2011 at 9:46 AM. Reason : ^ true]

2/4/2011 9:40:31 AM

forgot who i was responding to , usually people tie that to evolution

the big bang isn't necessarily a random event either

I'm partial to the idea that the universe is cyclical - expanding out, contracting, exploding again

obviously we don't have a darwin for explaining the universe yet, but I don't see why we couldn't at some point figure it out


[Edited on February 4, 2011 at 9:52 AM. Reason : .]

2/4/2011 9:46:34 AM

No, I actually believe in evolution

[Edited on February 4, 2011 at 9:50 AM. Reason : but not in the sense of we came from dancing sodium particles]

2/4/2011 9:50:12 AM

So then why are there not tons of fossils of these intermediary "species" that we and other animals developed from?

2/4/2011 11:52:06 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_human_evolution_fossils

2/4/2011 12:09:47 PM

^ those don't count because Satan put them there to trick you!

2/4/2011 12:11:45 PM

merbig, i'm taking your OP to be an angry rant at the "inconvience" of being talked to by the evangelists. I get that and that's what the internet/TWW is for.
However, getting all bent out of shape because people on challenged your opinions and then stating

Quote :

"I don't go around pounding their beliefs to the ground. Honestly, religion is a topic I try my best to avoid"

Quote :

"Nobody in my family knows what my beliefs are. I think they may think I'm still Christian. If they ask me, I will probably lie to them, just to avoid the discussion."

follwed very soon by your response to/dissection ofsawahash's post (not to mention your continuing discussion of your/other peoples religious beliefs in every one of your posts ITT) seems to contradict itself. Also, you'd lie to the people who are closest to you but you have no issue talking with relative strangers about the same subject? If you're that concerned about evangelists coming to your house and pushing their beliefs on you, how can you justify challenging the beliefs of other users on here?

I went through the same sort of phases FeebleMinded, Joie and I'm sure a lot of others have in that I was raised in the church (Catholic in my case with some nondenominational Christian influences through high school) but opened my eyes to the limitations of my past once I hit college and had the freedom of exploration. A lot of what I learned jaded my views on organized religion and that feeling is still there. But since then I've spent time in India/Thailand and seen and felt the Hindu/Buddhist traditions in the people there and I've seen enough "miracles" in science and the human body to know that there is no chance that there isn't "something" out there. I don't believe in "God" or "Allah" or "Krishna" or any of that, but like a couple other users said I do believe there is some sort of energy or unrevealed omnipotent being(s) out there that connect us all in some way, even if it hasn't ever and will never be revealed to us. I don't know what's going to happen when I die and really, who cares? I'm living my life by a fairly strict moral code while still enjoying every second I have here. So if the world ends and I go to heaven, great. If I just disappear for all enternity, oh well, nothing lost but a hedonistic lifestyle I didn't want anyway.

My point is, take your own advice. Stop worrying when people tell you what they think. Stop telling other people what you think. Having your own beliefs and discussing it rationally with someone is one thing, breaking down someone else's beliefs to no beneficial end is something completely different.

2/4/2011 4:44:30 PM

Quote :

"So then why are there not tons of fossils of these intermediary "species" that we and other animals developed from?"

There's a better way to say what I was trying to say a minute ago (edit: changed this post). Anyway, the "gaps in the fossil record" argument is always going to play because your crowd has no idea what a reasonable gap should look like. What I mean to say is that you're making a conceptual error in how you're thinking of the relevant evidence. You could see two fossils, A and B, such that B evolved directly from A, and you could still say "where is the transitional form?"

[Edited on February 4, 2011 at 5:04 PM. Reason : .]

2/4/2011 4:56:16 PM

^ you are one of the few people who always seem to come up with things i havent thought about. well maybe ive thought about but not put into the context you did


^^ftw!

2/4/2011 5:06:48 PM

Quote :

"Just throwing this out there: if somebody is an atheist, then they don't believe in hell either, correct? So who cares if someone tells them they will go to hell? I find it odd that somebody can be offended by the threat of going to a place they think is "

Just throwing this out there: I never said I was offended because he brought up an imaginary threat. You conjured that interpretation all by yourself...

Quote :

"Follwed very soon by your response to/dissection ofsawahash's post (not to mention your continuing discussion of your/other peoples religious beliefs in every one of your posts ITT) seems to contradict itself."

You conveniently left out the "In real life" part of the sentence you quoted. Don't manipulate my statements and then accuse me of something that I'm not guilty of.

Here's the entire quote:

Quote :

"Yeah. Probably. In real life, I don't go around pounding their beliefs to the ground."

Part in bold is all you quoted. The part that is italicized is what you left off.

Seeing as how this is the Internet, and I'm discussing religion and questioning people, I don't see how I can be guilty of contradicting myself.

Quote :

"Also, you'd lie to the people who are closest to you but you have no issue talking with relative strangers about the same subject?"

I don't know you people and I don't care what you people think about me. You seriously can't be this oblivious...

Quote :

"If you're that concerned about evangelists coming to your house and pushing their beliefs on you, how can you justify challenging the beliefs of other users on here? "

Nobody is forced to click on a thread that was clearly labelled as being a religious discussion. sawahash clicked this thread, read what I wrote, and then chose to respond. I admit, I could have slammed the door in these people's faces, and had they formally introduced themselves before asking me questions as well before asking me if I had time to talk to them, I would have politely gotten them to go away.

I can justify challenging other people's beliefs because they are willingly posting their beliefs with the expectation of a discussion. Similarly, when Joie was asking me questions, it didn't bother me, as I willingly posted my beliefs with the expectation of people asking me questions. That's a key difference. I want to discuss this. I didn't want to discuss religion with some person in real life. The reason being is because many people get offended and confrontational if you state that you are Atheist in America.

Quote :

"But since then I've spent time in India/Thailand and seen and felt the Hindu/Buddhist traditions in the people there and I've seen enough "miracles" in science and the human body to know that there is no chance that there isn't "something" out there."

Just because we're unable to explain something now, doesn't mean that there is something out there. That conclusion is something I really don't understand. The thought of "I can't explain it, it must be a higher being" doesn't logically make sense to me. 200 years ago, people probably thought twins was a "miracle," and therefore proof of a higher being's existence. But we know now what causes it, and we're able to explain it reasonably well. It would no longer really be considered a "miracle" by many people.

I used that example not with the hope that Samwise16 will come in here and detail all of the aspects that we don't understand yet in how a twin is created. My point was that we are continuing to explore and understand our surroundings, and in doing so, we can explain what causes things that were previously explained. So, to me anyway, seeing something I can't understand, doesn't prove or verify the existence of a higher being.

It kind of reminds me of Star Trek where they go down to a civilization that lacks the same technology they have, and when someone witnesses it, they're almost worshipped as a God (or the people are scared and they want to kill them People react differently to the unexplained).

Quote :

"My point is, take your own advice. Stop worrying when people tell you what they think. Stop telling other people what you think."

That is what this thread is about (now). A discussion of our beliefs and what not. People came in here and expressed their beliefs. I did the same thing. If you can't comprehend what a discussion is, then don't go to forums. If you can't handle people questioning you, then don't post your beliefs up here.

Quote :

"Having your own beliefs and discussing it rationally with someone is one thing, breaking down someone else's beliefs to no beneficial end is something completely different."

Where was I not discussing my own beliefs rationally? I wasn't trashing sawahash. My questions were sincere. I really wanted to know. Keep in mind, had she never posted her beliefs, I would have never asked her the questions to begin with. Since she posted, I asked. I really am interested in knowing the cause of her beliefs and where they originate from, and whether she has ever sat down and critically thought about her beliefs. If she doesn't want to tell me, then I won't push her into telling me.

I then went into my own personal feelings about believing in God. I wasn't trying to put her beliefs down, saying it's wrong. I was just expressing my own experiences and how I felt. After all, that's what you do in a discussion. I never said that she was anything like the description in my own experiences.

I want you to also recognize that I never said, as a matter of fact, that there is no God. I said I don't believe in a God. I haven't seen proof of the existence of a God. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying I don't agree with you. In order for me to say you're wrong, I would need to offer up proof, and the lack of proof isn't proof in itself. To me, the lack of proof in the existence of a God(s) is enough to convince me. To me, God is like a theory, and to me, it's not a plausible one. Kind of similar to how the Big Bang Theory is a theory.

[Edited on February 4, 2011 at 6:50 PM. Reason : Fucking news]

2/4/2011 6:48:46 PM

^ i think you are being sincere

however .....the OP seems a little condescending and a lot of people won't read past the first few posts

(correct me if im wrong) but you vented, you were mad ,you got it out, and now you are talking rationally and honestly i think its turned into a pretty cool (and amazingly civil) conversation


and i would like apologize again for getting my panties in a wad earlier and getting offended
i know its probably not that big of a deal but it is to me.
i really make a super conscious efort to think about things before i genuinely get mad or offended
and this was a case when i just posted without thinking!






[Edited on February 4, 2011 at 7:09 PM. Reason : we are all in the same water with different boats!!!]

2/4/2011 7:05:43 PM