Quote :

"It's forcing a woman to be a babymaking slave for 9 months"

vs. forcing a man to provide for a child for 18 years

Quote :

"similarly, I don't think there's a problem with having a man agree to sign his rights away as a dad after it was born if she wanted to keep it"

this doesn't remove all of the complications

see:

Quote :

"You're forever altering another person's life, and your family's life, and introducing a kid into a potentially shitty situation, because you want something that can be gotten elsewhere, from a willing donor."

and

Quote :

"Then you're raising a kid who is going to wonder why his/her dad didn't want her. I'd still feel guilty, personally. If the woman made the stupid decision to keep it, I'd be as good a damn father as I could be."

[Edited on October 30, 2013 at 10:26 AM. Reason : .]

10/30/2013 10:24:57 AM

Quote :

"vs. forcing a man to provide for a child for 18 years"

you missed the part where I said it was fine for him to sign away his rights

aside from which, again, we're assuming that the man in this position makes more than the woman

because when I said "rights" I meant not just his paternal rights, but those that would indebt him to the woman monetarily

I doubt you'd find many likeminded women, however

Quote :

"this doesn't remove all of the complications"

I never said it would

but if she makes the decision to keep it, you should get over whatever personal beef you may have about the situation and try to make the best of it

because it's still her decision

[Edited on October 30, 2013 at 10:34 AM. Reason : doesn't mean it's perfect, but it is what it is]

10/30/2013 10:33:44 AM

Great thread jaZon

10/30/2013 10:33:54 AM

Quote :

"but if she makes the decision to keep it, you should get over whatever personal beef you may have about the situation and try to make the best of it"

that's what i said

10/30/2013 10:35:23 AM

Quote :

"she wouldn't be sleeping with you"

How's that? Rich broads always do income verifications before proceeding with the dongage?

Quote :

"again, we're assuming that the man in this position makes more than the woman"

It seems like everyone is discussing the child support issue with this assumption in mind, which I suppose is partially why I asked the question I did.

Quote :

"forcing a man to provide for a child for 18 years"

So you're saying you earn more money than every woman you sleep with?

10/30/2013 10:44:46 AM

Quote :

"So you're saying you earn more money than every woman you sleep with?"

man you are just itching to disagree with me!

i was under the impression that even if you make less money, you still have to pay something. am i wrong there?

and also, like i said, anyone who isn't an asshole would feel guilty if they didn't participate in raising the kid


[Edited on October 30, 2013 at 10:54 AM. Reason : actually, though, it's been true so far]

10/30/2013 10:50:21 AM

I think it's funny that the same women who go "ITS MY BODY, ITS RUDE TO SUGGEST CERTAIN OPTIONS" wouldn't think twice about suggesting a vasectomy to their husband/boyfriend/whatever when they were done reproducing.

I think vasectomies are a great option, when that stage comes, but its my body. Don't you dare ever suggest it to me. Its rude. Ok.

[Edited on October 30, 2013 at 11:47 AM. Reason : again this was never about who has final say. its about who should have input]

10/30/2013 11:41:51 AM

Being approached by someone to help them make a decision is a different situation than bringing it up unprovoked. Would it be fucked up to suggest a boob job to a wife, or a mole removal? What about a lumpectomy versus aspiration biopsy versus radical mastectomy? People who aren't doctors probably shouldn't be suggesting medical procedures at all. I encourage people I'm concerned about to visit the doctor or get a second opinion, and leave it at that.


The female version of a vasectomy isn't an abortion, it's a tubal ligation. A routine procedure which medical staff frequently ask women if they'd like when they're cleaning up down there after childbirth, and women who are 'done reproducing' before they get started can also pursue, albeit with some level of recalcitrance from the medical establishment, since women's reproductive decisions are apparently so labile (see lewoods).

I'm not sure why you assume otherwise, but I would pursue that and discuss that with my partner, rather than asking someone else to surgically alter their own body. The reason being that I'm responsible for my own birth control and making decisions for my body, not for others.

10/30/2013 12:22:44 PM

Quote :

"I think vasectomies are a great option, when that stage comes, but its my body. Don't you dare ever suggest it to me. Its rude. Ok. again this was never about who has final say. its about who should have input"

as much as either group may complain about it, it really is about who has the final say about their own body

also worth pointing out that tubal ligations are more expensive and more of a medical procedure than vasectomies

so, I'd guess a lot of couples just wanted to save some money that way

10/30/2013 12:59:50 PM

Quote :

" it really is about who has the final say about their own body"

everyone agrees with this.

however, you still have the right to tell that person they're making a selfish dumb choice.

10/30/2013 1:04:37 PM

How is giving birth and raising a kid a selfish choice? Have you ever taken care of a kid?

10/30/2013 1:06:48 PM

we're not just talking about having a child. we're talking about the specific situation where one of the parents doesn't want one

Quote :

"You're forever altering another person's life, and your family's life, and introducing a kid into a potentially shitty situation, because you want something that can be gotten elsewhere, from a willing donor. "

if we operate from the assumption that abortion is not wrong, it's way selfish

but you're pro life so it's all a moot point anyways. still interested to hear your answer to my earlier question.

[Edited on October 30, 2013 at 1:15 PM. Reason : .]

10/30/2013 1:14:35 PM

*WOOOOOOOOOOSH*

10/30/2013 1:14:58 PM

Quote :

"How is giving birth and raising a kid a selfish choice?"

Yeah I don't get it either.

10/30/2013 1:21:18 PM

what don't you get? i just explained it 2 posts up

10/30/2013 1:23:42 PM

i see his point. it's somewhat selfish because they'll knowingly be bringing a kid into the world whose father isn't prepared or doesn't want a kid. instead of going out and finding a man that wants a kid and will be a good father to the kid. it's selfish in that they're giving the man a life-long commitment that they don't want, and selfish because the kid you'll be bringing into the world won't have the best father he could have.

10/30/2013 1:25:05 PM

right, when $200 and an uncomfortable dr. visit can make the whole thing disappear

and then you can visit the sperm store and get a baby of your own.

[Edited on October 30, 2013 at 1:32 PM. Reason : .]

10/30/2013 1:31:43 PM

That's where you're like waaaay too advanced. You've suggested that twice, and society is not on the same page as you. Virtually nobody is gonna abort a perfectly fine pregnancy just so they can go to a sperm bank and try to get pregnant with an anonymous one. That's some seriously futuristic stuff if the future is run by idiots.

And you guys realize that a huge portion of pregnancies are unplanned, and it's been this way since the beginning of time.

I mean, y'all are advocating a set of norms that would result in women going childless or having a bunch of sperm bank babies and raising them on their own. You really would wait until your 40s or 50s to continue your genetic line--hopefully, you'd have a boy, and he, too, could enjoy a stress-free life of sweet hobbies and "casual" sex with his girlfriend of a decade.

10/30/2013 1:46:23 PM

Quote :

"And you guys realize that a huge portion of pregnancies are unplanned, and it's been this way since the beginning of time."

you realize a huge portion of babies grow-up into deadbeats, assholes, psychopaths, jerks, scumbags, moron,and idiots, and some of that has to do with the type of environment they're raised in, and it's been that way since the beginning of time.

i understand and even agree with a lot of your points, but you're being pretty black and white about the issue too.

10/30/2013 1:51:00 PM

Quote :

" why? i don't understand this stance. if abortion is murder, it's wrong in all situations except when the mother's life is in danger. "

This is very personal, but I've talked about it on TWW in the past. I was entirely against abortion until I actually had children of my own. Both of my children have DiGeorge Syndrome and are what most would consider special needs. My eldest child is severely affected and it took a great deal just ensure his survival in those first two years. I did not know with certainty that it was inherited and not a random mutation until after I got pregnant with my second child. Early on in pregnancy, I was advised to terminate due to an ultrasound finding that typically results in fetal death due to hydrops. Instead, I chose to have further testing and wait. Fortunately, my daughter defied the odds, but she was still born with DiGeorge Syndrome. The experience of raising children who are special needs and going through the decision making process when termination is advised had me rethinking my position. Raising children with complex medical needs is not for everyone. I still don't know how I did it or how I continue to do it at times. I also understand that the parents who decide to terminate a pregnancy due to congenital or genetic defects go through a very emotional and soul searching process to come to their decision. I understand why they may chose to end the pregnancy and know that it isn't done lightly or in order to take care of an oops that could have quite easily been avoided with due diligence.

So, yes. That's why I no longer see it as simply "abortion is murder. period." There are gray areas and it isn't a black and white issue. But I definitely do not believe that it is morally acceptable to use abortion as back up birth control.

10/30/2013 1:56:31 PM

^^^

Quote :

"That's where you're like waaaay too advanced. You've suggested that twice, and society is not on the same page as you. Virtually nobody is gonna abort a perfectly fine pregnancy just so they can go to a sperm bank and try to get pregnant with an anonymous one. That's some seriously futuristic stuff if the future is run by idiots."

yeah, a lot of my points rely on people not being selfish assholes. that is clearly too much to ask. i'm glad we're on the same page though.

Quote :

"I mean, y'all are advocating a set of norms that would result in women going childless or having a bunch of sperm bank babies and raising them on their own."

right. those are your choices. or find a willing father.

you seem to be implying that it's okay for women to steal sperm.

[Edited on October 30, 2013 at 1:58 PM. Reason : .]

10/30/2013 1:58:03 PM

I still say that the whole situation could be avoided in the first place by keeping your sperm to yourself. Thread over.

10/30/2013 2:00:14 PM

so you believe in abstinence-only education and no premarital sex? sorry, that's just not realistic.

[Edited on October 30, 2013 at 2:04 PM. Reason : ]

10/30/2013 2:02:26 PM

yeah i do appreciate the nice answer and i admire your commitment to your kids, but i still don't agree.

10/30/2013 2:03:46 PM

Hell no. I use to teach comprehensive sex education.

I think that you shouldn't go around willy nilly slinging your dick at anything that will spread her legs. That you know the person you're having sex with and discuss things like birth control before hand. That you're using condoms properly, that you're using spermicide, that she's taking responsibility of her own reproductive health, that you communicate your desire not to have an unwanted pregnancy and that she's on the same page so that if something does happen you can go get the morning after pill. Basically, just take responsibility for your shit instead of drunk fucking some random potentially crazy sperm stealing broad.

10/30/2013 2:06:58 PM

Without falling into a debate about when life starts for our unwanted bastard child.... How many of you view the morning after pill in the same light as having an abortion?

10/30/2013 2:07:22 PM

Obviously. I do not believe that the morning after pill is the same thing as an abortion pill.

10/30/2013 2:09:14 PM

not everyone succeeds in having another pregnancy, especially after terminating. It may be a woman's only chance to reproduce. maybe she'll still choose that experience, even with sperm she didn't consciously choose that doesn't come with a man attached. It's her right, once you've given her sperm.


Bullet fingering single mothers with uninvolved fathers for this 'huge portion' of undesirable adults? Nice try, but the overwhelming majority of single parents had their children while in a relationship.

I think these statistics gathered by the U.S. Census bureau may surprise you.

Quote :

"According to Custodial Mothers and Fathers and Their Child Support: 2007, released by the U.S. Census Bureau in November, 2009, there are approximately 13.7 million single parents in the United States today, and those parents are responsible for raising 21.8 million children (approximately 26% of children under 21 in the U.S. today). However, the majority of individuals raising children alone started out in committed relationships and never expected to be single parents. According to the U.S. Census Bureau... The Typical Single Parent is a Mother: Approximately 84% of custodial parents are mothers, and 16% of custodial parents are fathers She is Divorced or Separated: Of the mothers who are custodial parents: 45% are currently divorced or separated 34.2% have never been married (that means less than 9% of all children born in the US) 19% are married (In most cases, these numbers represent women who have remarried.) 1.7% were widowed Of the fathers who are custodial parents: 57.8% are divorced or separated 20.9% have never married 20% are currently married (In most cases, these numbers represent men who have remarried.) Fewer than 1% were widowed She is Employed: 79.5% of custodial single mothers are gainfully employed 49.8% work full time, year round 29.7% work part-time or part-year 90% of custodial single fathers are gainfully employed 71.7% work full time, year round 18.4% work part-time or part-year She and Her Children Do Not Live in Poverty: 27% of custodial single mothers and their children live in poverty 12.9% of custodial single fathers and their children live in poverty She Does Not Receive Public Assistance: Among custodial single mothers: 22% receive Medicaid 23.5% receive food stamps 12% receive some form of public housing or rent subsidy 5% receive receive TANF (Temporary Assistance for Needy Families) She is 40 Years Old or Older: 39.1% of custodial single mothers are 40 years old or older She is Raising One Child: 54% of custodial mothers are raising one child from the absent parent 46% have two or more children living with them"

[Edited on October 30, 2013 at 2:15 PM. Reason : ]

10/30/2013 2:14:10 PM

Quote :

" I think that you shouldn't go around willy nilly slinging your dick at anything that will spread her legs. That you know the person you're having sex with and discuss things like birth control before hand. That you're using condoms properly, that you're using spermicide, that she's taking responsibility of her own reproductive health, that you communicate your desire not to have an unwanted pregnancy and that she's on the same page so that if something does happen you can go get the morning after pill. Basically, just take responsibility for your shit instead of drunk fucking some random potentially crazy sperm stealing broad."

maybe that's why there is so much disagreement in this thread. people are arguing different things. the few comments i've made, i'm in no way condoning daily drunk unprotected sex with multiple partners, nor am i promoting going raw dog. but accidents happen, and sometimes having a thoughtful discussion about pregnancy beforehand really isn't realistic.

10/30/2013 2:15:52 PM

this thread is painful to read

10/30/2013 2:16:56 PM

^^it's only unrealistic to you because you're unwilling to utter the words. it takes literally 10 seconds to say 'you don't want a baby right now, right?' and hear the response.

[Edited on October 30, 2013 at 2:19 PM. Reason : ]

10/30/2013 2:19:39 PM

Quote :

"Bullet fingering single mothers with uninvolved fathers for this 'huge portion' of undesirable adults?"

i wasn't talking about single mothers, i was talking about unplanned pregnancies.

10/30/2013 2:19:43 PM

Either you support this child, or you walk out the door right now. What's your decision?

10/30/2013 2:20:17 PM

Quote :

"not everyone succeeds in having another pregnancy, especially after terminating. It may be a woman's only chance to reproduce. maybe she'll still choose that experience, even with sperm she didn't consciously choose that doesn't come with a man attached. It's her right, once you've given her sperm. "

yep certainly everyone has the right to be an asshole.

10/30/2013 2:20:27 PM

It seems like bottombaby is drawing upon a hyperbolic strawman to illustrate her point about protected sex.

10/30/2013 2:21:02 PM

Quote :

"adultswim: right. those are your choices. or find a willing father. you seem to be implying that it's okay for women to steal sperm."

It's common practice and has been since forever--it's a natural outcome of our biology. The vast majority of childbirths that I've gotten to celebrate have been "surprises." Every third sibling I know has been a "surprise."

Of course, it's dishonest, and it annoys the hell out of me. And, unlike some other people in this thread, I'm not on board with having a whole bunch of bastard babies running around.

But, if you guys got to choose, you really would put off having children until very late in life or not at all. And, under your version of morality, women would have to have lots of abortions so they don't get charged with stealing your precious sperm. To me, that seems way more fucked up (and harmful to society) than some dumb woman jumping the gun on her husband.

10/30/2013 2:21:05 PM

Quote :

"And, under your version of morality, women would have to have lots of abortions so they don't get charged with stealing your precious sperm. "

No, just be careful (i'm talking to you guys, wear a rubber unless you're in a committed relationship with a girl who you're certain is clean and taking birth control), and it rarely if ever would come to that. But accidents happen.

10/30/2013 2:26:23 PM

Quote :

"It's common practice and has been since forever--it's a natural outcome of our biology."

so is rape

10/30/2013 2:27:31 PM

Quote :

"But, if you guys got to choose, you really would put off having children until very late in life or not at all. And, under your version of morality, women would have to have lots of abortions so they don't get charged with stealing your precious sperm. To me, that seems way more fucked up (and harmful to society) than some dumb woman jumping the gun on her husband."

Is this also an argument for women intentionally not using BC and lying about it, so as to get pregnant?

10/30/2013 2:29:50 PM

Ok. I gotta give points to Bridgetspk and adultswim for pulling out cultural anthro on us.

[Edited on October 30, 2013 at 2:31 PM. Reason : .]

10/30/2013 2:30:47 PM

know what would solve this conundrum? mass suicide.

10/30/2013 2:36:19 PM

Quote :

"^^With all of that shit your baby momma put you through, did you ever want her to get an abortion or regret not getting one? Did ya'll talk about it at the time? Are you glad now in retrospect that you did not? We had a kid pretty young due to failed BC, but I can't say that we ever discussed abortion or ever regretted now going down that road and almost eleven years later we are still happily married. I know Duke wasn't as young as I, but I know his situation was really unplanned as well, hence why I ask"

I "rudely" suggested an abortion several times early on, and I "rudely" made the case that it makes little to no sense to be ok with an IUD or BC but not a vey-early pill-abortion. Obviously she refused (in hindsight, I don't think it was an accident to begin with).

I don't regret asking her to have an abortion, and I don't regret her refusing and making me a father. If it happened again, I'd argue again for an abortion, and if the girl refused again, I'd be the best father I could be again.

10/30/2013 3:01:11 PM

Quote :

"Bullet: No, just be careful (i'm talking to you guys, wear a rubber unless you're in a committed relationship with a girl who you're certain is clean and taking birth control), and it rarely if ever would come to that. But accidents happen."

If anybody is going to do this to you, it will more than likely be your committed girlfriend.

SURPRISE! IT WAS AN ACCIDENT, I SWEAR!

Quote :

"adultswim: so is rape"

"Unplanned" pregnancies result in babies being born, kids having siblings, and even people getting married. That's probably why we're a little more tolerant of them than rape.

Quote :

"EMCE: Is this also an argument for women intentionally not using BC and lying about it, so as to get pregnant?"

I genuinely think it's a little more complicated than that in many cases.



I sincerely hope you guys understand that we're not going to live in a society where you get to have committed girlfriends who support you through life and do everything that a wife would do except have your children. And, once she's past child-bearing age, you decide it's time and get with a much younger woman who is going to raise your children (and care for you in your advanced age that's just around the corner).

If you want a bang maid, you're gonna have to knock her up. You can also kidnap your mother and move to Italy where the women are much better about family planning; your mom will do the maid stuff while you find women to bang--keep in mind that their population is aging rapidly since they're not reproducing...so your options among the younger set will be limited.

10/30/2013 3:33:22 PM

dawg you are creating some fucked up straw man scenarios

but for one:

Quote :

"Unplanned" pregnancies result in babies being born, kids having siblings, and even people getting married. That's probably why we're a little more tolerant of them than rape."

rape does all of those as well. even the married part in many cultures!

[Edited on October 30, 2013 at 3:41 PM. Reason : .]

10/30/2013 3:38:45 PM

^^Wait, are you seriously making the case that it's OK or even reasonable for women to deliberately, surreptitiously get pregnant?

[Edited on October 30, 2013 at 3:42 PM. Reason : ]

10/30/2013 3:41:24 PM

it's best for society, duke. we need more babies.

let's bring rape to the US

10/30/2013 3:43:13 PM

I'm not saying it's okay. I'm saying it's how the world works and has always worked. And you're all incredibly naive for not understanding that, and you're even more naive for believing that birth control/abortion would change anything about your options. Did y'all think 20 year-olds signed up for fatherhood back in the day? I mean, a lot of you are like 35, apparently paranoid about the extremely rare broken condom pregnancy, and you honestly believe women should feel obliged to abort because it would be soooo fucked up of her to bring a baby into this world when you don't want it. It would make her an "asshole," and she'd be contributing to the decline of society and blah, blah, blah. Do you realize how ridiculous this shit is?

Quit whining and handle your business.

10/30/2013 4:29:31 PM

i'm really confused about these "arguments". i think there's some miscommunication going on here.

10/30/2013 4:35:55 PM

^^
are you playing devil's advocate

10/30/2013 4:43:06 PM

Every other post for the last 3 pages seems like a new argument

10/30/2013 4:43:49 PM