Hey, the SandMan showed me that you could intimidate whole groups of people with random poisons But, to be serious, the kinds of things you are talking about won't be solved by any of the proposals made so far, and wouldn't be stopped by anything short of wholesale gun confiscations. And even then, it wouldn't fix it. Passing background checks to stop gangbangers from buying guns out of the back of a van doesn't seem like it would be a very fruitful endeavor

10/5/2015 12:37:17 AM

Quote :

"A nation plagued by gun violence? That just so happens to be decreasing, and has been decreasing since the 1990s? A plague of less than 1% of 1% of gun owners?"

Yes. We have a HUGE gun violence problem in the US, compared to other developed nations where it just doesn't happen. It may be decreasing, but crime has been trending downwards overall, and it's impossible to only isolate gun violence in that discussion.

The reason the media keeps fixating on mass shootings is, well, because they're pretty fucking horrific, given the fact that we don't have the social ills of war-torn countries. Ignoring mass shootings isn't going to stop them from happening, so I don't thinking blaming the media is the answer.

[Edited on October 5, 2015 at 12:38 AM. Reason : .]

10/5/2015 12:38:08 AM

Quote :

" Is it horrific to kill someone with a gun but OK to stab him, poison him, or strangle him? Is a guy any less dead if I run him down in my car or beat him to death with a baseball bat?"

Burro's strawman game is weak as fuck.

It's an incredibly stupid argument to begin with, but you make it even weaker when you contort it into a ridiculous strawman like this.

10/5/2015 12:39:30 AM

Doesn't Switzerland have like a half gun per capita and almost no shootings? What can we do to be more like them

10/5/2015 12:41:06 AM

Quote :

" Passing legislation that doesn't even come close to addressing the issue just for the sake of passing something and then expected it to help is laughable. "

You're against passing legislation that would actually do something about the issue, and gun control advocates have internalized this, so they've already conceded this loss, and target reforms that people already agree on (fixing the "private sales" loophole), and you people still oppose this when it comes up for vote.

So you can't attack the proposals for not doing anything, while also being against the proposals that WOULD do something, and simultaneously not offering other viable solutions. The subtext of the NRA et al's positions are that we should do nothing about this clear problem unique to our society, and this "do nothing" solution is what gun extremists are most comfortable with-- and they've been winning this fight handily.

It does seem though people are getting fed up with these mass shootings, and they're getting sick of gun extremists advocacy of the "do nothing" strategy, so maybe things might change. But it'll probably take another mass shooting or 2.

10/5/2015 12:41:59 AM

^^ tightly control ammo, making it only available in highly control situations.

10/5/2015 12:42:27 AM

Quote :

"Doesn't Switzerland have like a half gun per capita and almost no shootings? What can we do to be more like them "

Actually, I think the US has about 4x more shootings as Switzerland.

http://www.vox.com/2015/10/3/9444417/gun-violence-united-states-america

10/5/2015 12:44:10 AM

^^How do you feasibly do that though? Not only is ammo a lot cheaper than firearms, but it's a helluva lot easier to reload some ammo than it is to print gun parts from an expensive 3-d printer.

^we'll it'd be a step in the right direction

[Edited on October 5, 2015 at 12:46 AM. Reason : .]

10/5/2015 12:45:43 AM

Actually, blaming the media regarding mass shootings is a very valid thing to do. There is copious evidence that the media played a large role in promoting suicide clusters, and there's strong evidence that the way we glorify the shooters in the immediate days after a shooting is a contributing factor.

Saying ad nauseum that we have a "HUGE" gun violence problem doesn't make it actually so. And, again, comparing gun numbers in the US, where guns are legal, to numbers elsewhere where they aren't is the height of dishonesty.

^^^^ Ummm, my argument is that all the legislation passed so far would do absolutely nothing to address anything that is happening. Anything short of banning every single gun ever in existence isn't going to stop guns from being used to hurt people. The Assault Weapons Ban was as laughable as it could get at actually affecting anything.

People should be fed up with mass shootings. But basing large-scale legislative efforts that would do absolutely nothing to stem the problem in order to stop an incredibly small number of crimes is, again, absolutely absurd. Please, let's do a bunch of background checks and hope that a guy who is hell-bent on murdering dozens of people before killing himself will be kind enough to go to WalMart to get his guns! It's gonna work, I swear!

[Edited on October 5, 2015 at 12:54 AM. Reason : ]

10/5/2015 12:50:20 AM

Don't you think it's more than that?

As a culture, we have a pretty strong hardon for guns and celebrate them nonstop. TV, video games, movies, the internet, etc. As a culture, Americans LOVE firearms and don't seem to see them as one of the many symptoms of a violent culture.

Other countries glorify other forms of violence too, so it's not just an American thing. But maybe we should take a step back and think about why we are so in love with guns in the first place.

10/5/2015 12:55:17 AM

Maybe they are a symbol of our (the US's) freedom

Also, it's probably not helping when anti gun nut liberal Hollywood actors do blockbuster movies glorifying killing people with guns

10/5/2015 12:57:51 AM

Oh they are unquestionably a symbol of American freedom. No sense in denying that. I just wonder at what point are people going to finally get sick of mass shootings and drive-bys. Is it just something we hold our nose and tolerate or do people actually want them to stop?

[Edited on October 5, 2015 at 1:02 AM. Reason : .]

10/5/2015 1:01:55 AM

Maybe we could reduce the need for criminals to use guns by legalizing drugs.

That should solve the problem well enough.

Also, can we bring back Cowboys & Indians? The kids are getting kinda tubby without actual mock warfare. The virtual stuff isn't cutting it.

10/5/2015 1:05:53 AM

I think it would be great if all drugs were legal. As crazy as that may sound, I'd bet that it would happen 10x sooner in America than amending the Second Amendment.

10/5/2015 1:09:15 AM

I wonder if there are any accurate statistics on the number of people who get in a near death experience with a gun (ie almost get shot in a seedy neighborhood) and turn their lives around, versus people who get hooked on heroin and then turn their lives around.

10/5/2015 1:14:44 AM

Aren't they in the seedy neighborhood to buy heroin?

10/5/2015 1:17:07 AM

maybe but if you're a dope fiend, you're probably not gonna just get shot at assuming you are coming correct with the cash flow when you cop your smack. whereas there are a multitude of reasons and shit you might get into, that don't involve getting hooked on heroin, that could get you in some violent shit, in any neighborhood.

10/5/2015 1:25:06 AM

let's look on the bright side at least, yes we kill each other with guns many times the rate of other countries but at least we'd be better set in a walking dead/alien invasion/doomsday scenario

(in reality though I am kind of liberal on gun control, moreso when I was in college but I kind of understand the conservative argument as in how do we get guns away from the criminals at this point instead of generally law abiding folks)

10/5/2015 1:46:08 PM

Quote :

"Maybe we could reduce the need for criminals to use guns by legalizing drugs."

seriously. there is no room in the prisons for violent people because we filled them with drug addicts.

10/5/2015 8:11:12 PM

Quote :

"there is no room in the prisons for violent people because we filled them with drug addicts dealers who took to violence."

we make room in prison for violent offenders. no one is going to prison over minor drug offenses.

10/5/2015 8:30:27 PM

Quote :

"we make room in prison for violent offenders. no one white person is going to prison over minor drug offenses."

FTFY

10/5/2015 8:42:06 PM

I still haven't heard anything definitive about Cowboys/Indians.

Where are we at on this issue, guys?

10/5/2015 8:51:01 PM

are they playing football or baseball?

10/5/2015 9:01:23 PM

I think "agricultural laborers" and "indigenous Americans" are the PC terms used today, but I could be wrong.

10/5/2015 9:37:59 PM

those terms are both gay and retarded

10/5/2015 9:52:16 PM

^^^^ woah, take it to The Soap Box, plz. This is chit chat, meant for more lighthearted conversations.

10/5/2015 9:55:08 PM

Quote :

"no one wealthy person is going to prison over minor drug offenses."

FIFY

[Edited on October 5, 2015 at 10:13 PM. Reason : of course people are in prison over minor drug offenses]

10/5/2015 10:01:10 PM

what do you consider to be a minor drug offense? and a night in county isn't prison, obviously

10/5/2015 10:10:56 PM

there are a ton of people behind bars for simply not being able to make bail, let alone pay the fine/pay for a public defender

10/5/2015 10:17:30 PM

you know the difference in jail and prison, right?

and still not sure what your definition of minor drug offense is

getting 3-9 for P/W/I/S/D of a relatively small amount of cocaine is pretty weak shit. but that's the "dealing" part that was mentioned earlier

you make it sound like somebody can't pay the court cost for an ounce of weed and goes to federal prison

[Edited on October 5, 2015 at 10:25 PM. Reason : .]

10/5/2015 10:21:15 PM

In New York, if your ass can't make bail, you will eventually be sent to a prison to await your trial.

10/5/2015 10:28:19 PM

for what charge though?

also NY laws are fucked

10/5/2015 10:29:26 PM

Quote :

"you make it sound like somebody can't pay the court cost for an ounce of weed and goes to federal prison"

uh, yeah

it happens with all forms of crime

there just happens to have been a War On Drugs that has caused the prison population to explode over the last 35 years

10/5/2015 10:31:22 PM

since you're all about sources, please provide an example of someone charged with possession of an ounce of weed whose been sent to federal prison

i'm not trying to be confrontational either. i know there are people locked up for minor shit. but minor shit to me is "only" a half ounce of coke in 16 individual bags. wheres you seem to be implying people get sent to prison for much less

[Edited on October 5, 2015 at 10:34 PM. Reason : .]

[Edited on October 5, 2015 at 10:36 PM. Reason : 14 bags? whatever]

10/5/2015 10:32:58 PM

it doesn't matter what the charge is for if you can't afford bail

simple possession just happens to be one of the easiest, most common tickets/arrests a cop can give/make

if they bring you in and you're poor, you're fucked

10/5/2015 10:37:07 PM

pretty sure the charge does matter, since that's been the premise of the last 10-20 posts in this thread

i'm no expert, but i know some people who have been arrested for various things, and it sounds to me like you're not being very accurate

[Edited on October 5, 2015 at 10:39 PM. Reason : .]

10/5/2015 10:38:16 PM

I'm guessing as you google for evidence, the main thing you're coming across is the mandatory sentence for 5 or more grams of crack cocaine. Doesn't really coincide with the "doesn't matter the charge, if you can't pay bail you end up in prison" talking point that you're parroting, does it.

[Edited on October 5, 2015 at 11:02 PM. Reason : simple possession of 5 grams of crack. "i was gonna smoke it all, officer"]

10/5/2015 11:02:22 PM

Is 5 grams of crack a lot? Serious question.

10/6/2015 12:12:16 AM

I'd say it's a good indication of the intent to sell, ie you're dealing and not using for personal use.

That's not to say that there aren't people who can't get "real" jobs and turn to hustling to buy diapers and stuff. But I definitely wouldn't put that in the "guy gets arrested for weed and goes to prison" bullshit that has been implied

the War on Drugs is about mandatory sentences for non-violent criminals. That is a valid concern, and a valid reason why prisons are overcrowded. And much of it is effectively racist, whether intentional or not. People selling drugs and not necessarily participating in violence to secure their turf, etc are being incarcerated. While (some of the same) people are only getting on probation for armed robbery and actual violent stuff, partially because of the fucked up legal process as well as limited housing in prisons.

When you read about somebody with a rap sheet of dozens of violent crimes still being out on the street, and finally being locked up because they murder someone, it's a problem.

But it's not some fucking "guy gets busted with weed, can't pay bail, goes to prison" situation which is being retardedly insinuated here

[Edited on October 6, 2015 at 12:22 AM. Reason : .]

10/6/2015 12:13:34 AM

I Googled the average weight of a crack rock. TIL

I don't think anyone is suggesting that getting locked up in prison for a single weed possession charge is common, but depending on the jurisdiction and personal circumstances, it does happen. I think some of us have a problem with locking up low level to mid level dealers. I won't speak for everyone, but I don't think people should do hard time for minor drug dealing, regardless of the substance. Some might argue that NOBODY should be locked up in the first place, since all drugs should be regulated/taxed/legalized, but that's a different thread

10/6/2015 12:34:26 AM

I'm still waiting on a source for someone being locked up for a single weed possession. Not being in county jail for the night, but being locked up in prison. And not for 500 pounds of weed, but a possession that an average person would have. Otherwise I don't believe that happens, based on my own acquaintances experiences.

As for the other point, I'm forced to ask your definition of "mid-level dealers". Saying a low to mid level dealer should be locked up could imply that someone selling pounds of cocaine every week is just a mid-level dealer, and shouldn't go to jail? Not sure I'm buying that one.

10/6/2015 12:48:59 AM

I mean a pound of cocaine is kind of a lot. People usually buy grams of the stuff, so I wouldn't consider anyone moving that amount a low-level dealer. Anecdotally, I knew someone that got busted for about 8 ounces of weed, in NC no less. He took a plea deal to avoid prison time (wealthy white guy), but he was also charged with conspiracy to distribute and a bunch of other charges since he had bongs and digi scales. Nobody I have ever met in California has done any jail time for any amount of weed, and I've met people busted by the feds for grow ops. I think you're painting a broad brush by saying nobody has ever done time for simple possession. I don't have any proof to back up my claims though.

[Edited on October 6, 2015 at 12:54 AM. Reason : .]

10/6/2015 12:51:05 AM

Well at the same time, marijuana laws are very different in CA and NC

But the "War on Drugs" isn't based on modern legal-weed states and subsequent incarcerations, it's based on crack cocaine giving mandatory sentences for possession, even if the person with 5+ grams of crack wasn't a violent criminal.

I have a shitload of sympathy for some guy on the corner who is selling crack to fiends who would buy it elsewhere if they couldn't get it there, for the purpose of putting food on the table, getting locked up in prison for 5 years minimum just because of a Nancy Reagan law. THAT is the argument, and a valid one, for the overcrowding of prisons based on non-violent criminals.

Not the total weed/court cost bullshit that TGL is echoing like an ignoramus.

the same guy who trolls me for weeks because he doesn't believe Ronde Barber, but can't provide a shred of evidence of his retarded claims that he read on TheDailyDemocrat or whatever other left or right wing sites he uses to form his patently false opinions

btw, 8 ounces of weed is a half pound. your acquaintance was most likely selling, which again isn't some poor guy with a smoke bag who got put in pound-me-in-the-ass prison because of the corrupt system. he probably got caught slippin

[Edited on October 6, 2015 at 1:03 AM. Reason : .]

10/6/2015 1:00:01 AM

Quote :

"we make room in prison for violent offenders. no one is going to prison over minor drug offenses."

this was the claim. if it had said few or not many, maybe we wouldn't be having this semantic pissing contest.

10/6/2015 1:03:27 AM

he also crossed out users and specified dealers

I don't think a weed dealer is necessarily violent, if they sell an eighth or 100 pounds. but there's obviously a difference

bottom line is, prisons aren't overcrowded with kids (black or white or whatever) who get busted with 7 grams of green.

[Edited on October 6, 2015 at 1:07 AM. Reason : .]

10/6/2015 1:04:35 AM

http://www.forbes.com/sites/janetstemwedel/2015/10/01/congress-still-bans-cdc-scientists-from-studying-gun-violence/

10/6/2015 10:39:00 PM

Coloin Noir, pointing out how contradicting gun control advocates are

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6W4JNAQaKw

10/7/2015 1:37:25 AM

Quote :

"-- More Americans have died from guns in the United States since 1968 than on battlefields of all the wars in American history. -- For 2008 - 2013: Cops killed by guns: 268 ..... 0-4 year olds killed by guns: 505 -- Nearly 100 people die daily from guns in the US."

[Edited on October 7, 2015 at 8:20 AM. Reason : ]

10/7/2015 8:08:29 AM

"This just in, people die in more car accidents today than by horse and buggy 150yrs ago."

10/7/2015 9:37:18 AM

Quote :

"Nearly 100 people die daily from guns in the US."

Nothing like including suicide statistics to try and exaggerate gun violence.

Well technically since "guns kill people" it isn't a suicide when you shoot yourself - it's you being murdered by an assault-pistol.

10/7/2015 10:10:00 AM