^^
I'm not the one claiming that people I disagree with are all Russian agents, sympathizers, or Sputnik News readers.

^
You consistently belittle people who question the official US story, even though there is immense historical evidence of the US making shit up to go to war. There's plenty of truth to Russian disinformation campaigns, but the fact is, we lie too, and we could be lying in this case. Whatever happened, we 100% used it as propaganda for a war we never intended to leave.

You don't support imperialism, but you also don't question the propaganda behind it.

[Edited on April 19, 2018 at 1:10 PM. Reason : .]

4/19/2018 1:09:14 PM

Quote :

"I'm not the one claiming that people I disagree with are all Russian agents, sympathizers, or Sputnik News readers."

no, just the guy willing to overlook the shortcomings of a narrative then dishonestly re-frame other people's arguments when they highlight some of those shortcomings

in other words, a stooge

4/19/2018 1:14:38 PM

Quote :

"Is Robert Fisk a Russian plant now? "

I actually read (somewhere, I’ll look for it) a discussion that suggested Fisk had built up significant biases against Sunni Muslims after living in Beirut for the past decade. It’s somewhat understandable given ISIS’s atrocities in nearby regions. You can see this in the link several posts above where Fisk accuses Obama of “fighting with ISIS” because the US was arming more moderate Sunni groups. I think he’s fallen into the good vs bad/Sunni vs Shia narrative that really both sides of that conflict are playing up. So he probably just views the genocide of Sunni civilians as fighting those slippery ISIS insurgents. Assuming that all Sunnis in Syria are future ISIS fighters is the same mindset that lets Israel dismiss all Palestinian protestors as future or current Hamas terrorists. The world is hella more complicated and messy than that.

4/19/2018 1:19:21 PM

^^
What shortcomings? That dust can't suffocate people? Because I linked a past event in Syria where it did. I also showed that thermobaric weapons (which are specifically designed to suffocate people in bunkers) are used in Syria by multiple actors, which you laughed off.

I also said it could have been Assad.

^
That's one hell of an assumption against his character.

[Edited on April 19, 2018 at 1:23 PM. Reason : .]

4/19/2018 1:22:31 PM

Quote :

"You consistently belittle people who question the official US story"

Just Earl really and it’s because he been a troll for a decade on here and recently said that the only reliable media sources are Russian and Venezuelan.

As far as Assad and the DNC hack (which I assume is one thing you were referring to) I didn’t automatically believe either but I looked at evidence from multiple parties, even the Seth Rich stuff, and made my own mind up.

4/19/2018 1:23:57 PM

Quote :

"That's one hell of an assumption against his character. "

I don’t view it that way. If you modify Sunni to be more specifically salafism and Wahhabism (spelling?, I dunno), in some ways he is right. Recent history suggests folks in this realm of sunniism preach some pretty shitty things. But that doesn’t automatically make Shi’as the good guys either.


http://www.kulturverk.com/interview-with-robert-fisk20170422/
Read that interview and take note who he shits on the most and who he can’t generate a single bad word about. There’s the token shitting on of the US and Israel/Jews, but really note how he repeatedly claims “Syrians” (ie Shia people) are bravely fighting for their country while Sunnis:

Quote :

"if you are a Wahhabi – which is Qatar and Saudi-Arabia only – then your vision is very clear-cut. Shiism is their apostate enemy. And it does not matter how many times you reopen the embassy in Teheran, for an example. Shiism is the enemy that they will try to destroy in any form. And when you get desperate, when you think the Americans are leaving you (which I think they are), when you see that your murderous friends are not winning in Syria or in Iraq, you panic. You start lashing out. The Saudi power resides in a thousand princes or two thousand, depending on your point of view. These people do not have a sophisticated view of the world. They joy the world. They go on holiday to Cannes, they go to nightclubs in London or a Playboy club, whatever. But their view is quite clear-cut when they get home. I have a good friend that is a Saudi journalist. When he came to Egypt with his family, his wife was sitting at the table. When I went to his home in Riyadh, his wife was kept in the background. I never saw her. He is a nice guy. So is his family, by the way. I am not bringing him into the story. But I am just saying that you have this: once a Saudi is at home he is not the guy you meet in Washington."

4/19/2018 1:58:02 PM

Wahabbis are not Sunnis. They are a separate ultra-conservative branch of Islamism and there's no reason to defend them. I didn't see anything wrong with that interview. He didn't say "bravely fighting", that was an interesting spin you put on it. He said they are fighting for their country, which they are (or believe they are, similar to US soldiers). He later said the Syrian government was brutal and savage.

Quote :

"I think the Russians have an admiration for the Syrians because they do not give in. Not because they are brutal, which of course they are. Or savage in their attacks, which of course they are, as are the attacks on them. But [the Russians admire them] because they see the Syrian Army as being a wall against the dangerous perversion of religion, which ISIS represents."

[Edited on April 19, 2018 at 2:24 PM. Reason : .]

4/19/2018 2:21:01 PM

Quote :

"Wahabbis are not Sunnis."

I know what you're saying, but

Quote :

"Today Ibn Abd Al-Wahhab's teachings are the official, state-sponsored form of Sunni Islam[3][20] in Saudi Arabia.[21] With the help of funding from Saudi petroleum exports[22] (and other factors[23]), the movement underwent "explosive growth" beginning in the 1970s and now has worldwide influence.[3] The US State Department has estimated that over the past four decades the capital Riyadh has invested more than $10bn (£6bn) into charitable foundations in an attempt to replace mainstream Sunni Islam with the harsher, intolerant Wahhabism."

-wiki

4/19/2018 2:26:46 PM

Yes, because Saudi leaders want to spread Wahhabism. Even still, only a minority of Sunni's in Saudi Arabia are Wahhabis.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Saudi_Arabia

4/19/2018 2:34:13 PM

Terd, I just think it's weird that there are all these anti-imperialist journalists you once respected...Greenwald, Taibbi, Fisk, etc, saying things you don't agree with, and your response is always to dig into their past and figure out where they went wrong. Imo you should dig into your own as well.

Sidenote on MSM reporting on Syria:

https://fair.org/home/out-of-20-major-editorials-on-trumps-syria-strikes-zero-opposed/

[Edited on April 19, 2018 at 2:51 PM. Reason : .]

4/19/2018 2:49:47 PM

Greenwald, much like all of us on here, actually said he was against the strikes (duh) but admitted Assad is an issue. His tweet read:

Quote :

"He & his father have ruled Syria for 46 years. They have murdered dissidents. They worked with Bush and Cheney to torture people as part of the "War on Terror." Pretending Syria is some sort of free democracy is grotesque. Assad is a dictator. Intervention is still unjustified"

4/19/2018 3:44:29 PM

he’d be less of an issue if we weren’t arming and fighting alongside the opposition

there are dozens of countries with far worse issues running them

[Edited on April 19, 2018 at 3:47 PM. Reason : .]

4/19/2018 3:46:13 PM

Quote :

"Imo you should dig into your own as well. "

Easy. I stopped letting my disdain for America’s foreign policy (current and past) blind me to the fact that there are other bad actors around the world. I also developed some nuance on trying to judge America’s foreign policy in the context of this extremely shitty world where sometimes a “best decision/policy” just plainly doesn’t exist. Finally, I recognized that America should still be allowed to participate in geopolitics and should be allowed to defend herself even though we’ve done shitty things in our past.

4/19/2018 5:42:21 PM

How do our actions abroad in the past few decades amount to defending ourselves?

Unless you mean defending our access to cheap oil.

[Edited on April 19, 2018 at 6:18 PM. Reason : .]

4/19/2018 6:16:42 PM

the "shitty" aspects of the world are almost solely a result of uk/us/french involvement. doubling down on western intervention isnt going to solve any of the problems the west has created.

4/19/2018 6:24:27 PM

I think our initial foray into Afghanistan post-9/11 was justified. When I typed that I was specifically thinking of a balanced response to Russian aggression.

4/19/2018 6:27:44 PM

So you agree with one brief part of one of our extended war campaigns...

Still really confused. Which Russian aggression deserves/deserved a military offense?

1/4 of our military budget per year would be enough to end world poverty. so what the fuck are we doing? nothing, because we profit from poverty and war.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-global-military-goals/just-10-percent-of-world-military-spending-could-knock-off-poverty-think-tank-idUSKCN0X12EQ

[Edited on April 19, 2018 at 6:49 PM. Reason : .]

4/19/2018 6:31:47 PM

Well, when they attacked us in Syria in February, I think our response was appropriate. If they continue cyber attacks on us, if they were outrageously debilitating to the country, I’d consider a military response. I’ve already laid out my plan for an economic/sanction response, which would be my preference.

Russia is clearly trying to provoke America. It’s why I also suggested pulling troops in Syria back to the Iraq border.

But you are getting really hung up on the one sentence where I suggest America should be allowed to respond to hostile actions. The other gist of that entire post is that I recognize America’s shitty foreign policy, I want to do better, but foreign policy is always gonna be messy and America is far from the only bad actor. I’m hoping America’s foreign policy will improve as blood-thirsty baby boomers start to recede as a voting block.

And yeah, I want to cut military spending too and spend it more wisely. That doesn’t mean I want to have 0 military.

4/19/2018 7:08:12 PM

Quote :

"when they attacked us in Syria in February"

Which, I'm sure you would agree, could have been avoided had we not been there in the first place.

Quote :

"America is far from the only bad actor."

Nope, but we are by far the biggest and most threatening.

[Edited on April 19, 2018 at 7:13 PM. Reason : .]

4/19/2018 7:12:25 PM

Alternatively, Russia could have stuck to the deconfliction protocols they originally agreed to.

4/19/2018 7:31:40 PM

That alternative accepts that it is valid for us to be there in the first place. Do you believe that?

4/19/2018 7:44:42 PM

We have just as much right as Russia to be there.




Edit:

I think given the number of IsIS fighters that were pouring over the border into Iraq, we had an interest in the failed state of Syria. The original sin here was Iraq and the unfortunate anchor it’s become around our necks.

[Edited on April 19, 2018 at 8:10 PM. Reason : Esit]

4/19/2018 8:01:58 PM

Oh come on, that's disingenuous as hell and you know it.

You know we were in Syria way before Russia, right? And they at least have the excuse of supporting a nearby ally.

Quote :

"I think given the number of IsIS fighters that were pouring over the border into Iraq, we had an interest in the failed state of Syria. The original sin here was Iraq and the unfortunate anchor it’s become around our necks."

You're kidding me with this. You said before that you didn't support our military operations, apart from the early stages of Afghanistan. Now you're saying the War on Terror (post-Iraq) including in Syria, is justified?

All I'm seeing here is you stumbling over yourself to defend US imperialism.

AND FYI, it wasn't a failed state until we got involved, as usual.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/earth-insight/2013/aug/30/syria-chemical-attack-war-intervention-oil-gas-energy-pipelines

[Edited on April 19, 2018 at 8:23 PM. Reason : .]

4/19/2018 8:07:59 PM

No, it was a failed state when the Syrian military started gunning protestors down in the streets which eventually led to mass defections in the military. This led to parts of Syria becoming terrorist training grounds, and militants poured into Iraq. I’m not gonna suggest that I support the Iraq War or the War on Terror because both were insanely poorly executed and involved insanely stupid justifications for many of the targets.

However, I do think that, given our unfortunate obligations in Iraq, the US had/has an interest in beating back ISIS in the failed state of Syria.

4/19/2018 8:34:57 PM

It was never about protecting civilians, I don't know why you keep falling back on that. We were funding anti-government factions years before the protests even started.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/us-secretly-backed-syrian-opposition-groups-cables-released-by-wikileaks-show/2011/04/14/AF1p9hwD_story.html

[Edited on April 19, 2018 at 8:56 PM. Reason : .]

4/19/2018 8:54:33 PM

Is that why its okay tok use chemical weapons?

[Edited on April 19, 2018 at 9:03 PM. Reason : I'm sorry, I mean "dust storms"]

4/19/2018 9:03:20 PM

^^so now the Arab spring is America’s fault too? You don’t think there were political problems in a majority Sunni country being run by an Alawite dictator?

4/19/2018 9:10:30 PM

Seriously lmao at two supposed leftists supporting CIA regime change so Dick fucking Cheney can drill for oil in Western Syria.

The protests were legitimate and started with non-violence. You can blame the US for escalating it to the point of massive civil war.

Quote :

"Is that why its okay tok use chemical weapons?"

I know you're not dumb enough to misrepresent me this bad, so I'll assume you're trolling.

[Edited on April 19, 2018 at 9:21 PM. Reason : .]

4/19/2018 9:16:50 PM

This is exactly my point though. I see a messy sectarian war that the US and allies stupidly got swept into (yes with a million mistakes along the way), you see a CIA orchestrated regime change against the saintly Assad. It’s where we disagree.

4/19/2018 10:01:54 PM

we didn't get swept into it. we started it.

Quote :

"saintly Assad"

lol fuck off

4/19/2018 10:40:12 PM

He never implied assad was saintly. The primary argument is that the existence of a bad actor does not excuse the US to make bad shit worse by intervening.

4/19/2018 10:40:39 PM

https://www.bellingcat.com/news/mena/2018/04/11/open-source-survey-alleged-chemical-attacks-douma-7th-april-2018/

This is a pretty convincing analysis of available videos taken from the chemical attack site.

4/20/2018 10:15:29 AM

Speaking of assad being a saint...

-drives himself
-no convoy
-no armour
-no closed roads
-obeys traffic rules
-stops at lights

Other leaders can't do this without dying and they aren't in a civil war for 7 years.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0OeM0tFmFs

4/20/2018 11:16:13 PM

I saw DeBlasio going for a run with his wife in park slope the other day.

4/20/2018 11:18:19 PM

you didn't see trump

4/20/2018 11:25:37 PM

Anyone interested in killing Assad, that actually used to live in Damascus proper, is probably lying in the bottom of a mass grave outside Sednaya Prison by now.

But by all means, please keep sucking a genocidal dictators dick.

4/21/2018 7:24:47 AM

Ok I watched the video. All I can say is LOL.

4/21/2018 9:02:51 AM

Lol at Earl trolling you by saying he falls for propoganda videos.

4/21/2018 10:45:18 AM

[Edited on April 21, 2018 at 11:46 AM. Reason : nvm]

4/21/2018 11:44:39 AM

I don't want to believe in the horseshoe theory but it's hard to ignore when the far left goes full moron on Assad

4/21/2018 1:03:07 PM

Quote :

"Anyone interested in killing Assad, that actually used to live in Damascus proper, is probably lying in the bottom of a mass grave outside Sednaya Prison by now. But by all means, please keep sucking a genocidal dictators dick."

It sounds like you're implying only a small % of the country actually hated him since the number of opposition + civilians deaths is a maximum of 250k in a country of 17 million.

You can't use the word genocide so loosely. It has a specific meaning. I'm a pacifist and don't think any war is acceptable so I clearly don't "suck his dick" and think he's awful but I don't see how anything he has done is different from what most other leaders would do. At worst, Assad is somewhere between Gadhafi and Saddam. He didn't create the situation and is doing his best to end it.

The US has killed more people in its war on terror with no real existential threat and who knows what would happen if they were actually being threatened by ISIS taking over huge portions of the country and foreign fighters flooding in to take over the country. The echoed double standard in the media and the brainwashed population is appalling.

Twice as many people died in the war you carried out in iraq. Let me ask, do you consider yourself genocidal?

4/22/2018 12:15:02 AM

Is W or Donald Rumsfield using an alias in here? Who is “you.”

4/22/2018 7:58:08 AM

^^you’re missing the 6 million people that have been internally displaced or have fled the country. Now maybe killing and torturing a group of people until they leave doesn’t fit into your strict definition of genocide, but the UN, Amnesty International, etc all viewers it as basic ethnic cleansing.

I’ve already said Iraq was a stupid idea that turned into a horror. That doesn’t mean I’m gonna go around regurgitating RUssia TV talking points that gobble Assad’s cock.

4/22/2018 9:27:31 AM

6 million displaced due to a civil war that only happened because we (and our allies) massively armed the opposition. You’re almost getting it.

4/22/2018 10:25:50 AM

This is what’s funny.

Earlier ITT, this is how your thinking went:

The anti-Assad protests were nonviolent and legitimate
.......
Then the US started arming the opposition and started a civil war........


What are you missing in that inbetween stage? Assad troops murdering hundreds of non-violent protestors. After the crackdown literally thousands of people “disappeared” into torture prisons. Mass defections occurred out of Assad’s military (already armed) because they got tired of being ordered to kill their fellow Sunnis. The civil war started right then and there.

How low of an opinion of the Syrian people do you need to sum the entirety of their grievances into just blaming the USA.

4/22/2018 10:49:49 AM

I don’t even understand why this is difficult. The US and it’s allies shouldn’t engage in imperialism and a lot of the worst ills in the world are directly or indirectly related to centuries of that. Also, you shouldn’t crackdown violently on non-violent protesters and use chemical weapons on civilians.

How are these mutually exclusive to some people?

(I’m beginning to think some of these people probably heard Trump say “Saddam did the gas and everyone went crazy” and reflexively started defending Saddam as some beacon of light).

[Edited on April 22, 2018 at 11:16 AM. Reason : X]

4/22/2018 11:15:51 AM

Quote :

"Is W or Donald Rumsfield using an alias in here? Who is “you.”"

The american taxpayer who has allowed this to go on for 16 years and 5 presidential terms. Its not just Iraq. "You" is also anyone who voted for any of these people or still verbally supports these actions. If we have a democracy, the atrocities of our nation fall on all of the people and most of these people in the "you" group think we have a democracy.

Quote :

"you’re missing the 6 million people that have been internally displaced or have fled the country. Now maybe killing and torturing a group of people until they leave doesn’t fit into your strict definition of genocide, but the UN, Amnesty International, etc all viewers it as basic ethnic cleansing."

Its not that simple. ISIS also took over Sunni Syria and other SUNNI extremist groups and alqaeda took over much of the rest of Sunni Syria. Many left because of that but the fight that ensued made many leave as well.

Quote :

"I’ve already said Iraq was a stupid idea that turned into a horror. That doesn’t mean I’m gonna go around regurgitating RUssia TV talking points that gobble Assad’s cock."

Knowing that they show a lot of angles I aggree with, I've always made an effort to avoid Russian TV. I never go there and only read it if its the only thing that comes up in a search. It all started with furguson which was the first time i noticed a lot of the important details in black police shootings are only emphasized by russian tv.

Quote :

"After the crackdown literally thousands of people “disappeared” into torture prisons."

This is exactly what the US and Saudi Arabia do. Its really strange that Americans dwell on some leader on the other side of the world doing some of the things thier own government always does.

Quote :

"The civil war started right then and there."

It actually was primed when white people with no knowledge of sunni or shia sects drew maps that put them all in the same country. You can't really have an unnatural country remain stable without fierce rule and order. This was the reason for the balkanization of Yugoslavia and that region. Assad is bad. Saddam was bad. The USA "fixing" these countries is much much worse.

Quote :

"How low of an opinion of the Syrian people do you need to sum the entirety of their grievances into just blaming the USA."

I don't think anyone is doing that. I think we are alll just saying the US has made matters worse. Authoritarian countries have violent crackdowns all the time and they usually squash the resistance quickly to restore order. I'm not saying I support it or that its right but we can all agree it is better than what has happened in Syria. The US has a long history of massacres and the state still kills unarmed people on a regular basis. Its a good thing no one was able to arm the resistance during Tiananmen square or millions of people could have died and China might not have become the great country it is today.

Quote :

"I don’t even understand why this is difficult. The US and it’s allies shouldn’t engage in imperialism and a lot of the worst ills in the world are directly or indirectly related to centuries of that. Also, you shouldn’t crackdown violently on non-violent protesters and use chemical weapons on civilians. How are these mutually exclusive to some people?"

Who said they were. They are certainly both true. What we are saying is that the occurance of 1 doesn't excuse 2.

I'm mainly arguing against this notion:

"There were violent crackdowns on non-violent protesters and chemical weapons were used on civilians, therefore, the US and its allies should engage in imperialism. "

It may sound absurd but its real.

Quote :

""We will have to build the new Syria afterwards and that's why I think the U.S. role is very important," Macron said during an interview with "Fox News Sunday.""

This is why investment bankers shouldn't lead imperialist nations.

4/22/2018 12:34:08 PM

Quote :

"How low of an opinion of the Syrian people do you need to sum the entirety of their grievances into just blaming the USA."

I'm not. You literally quoted me saying the protests were legitimate.

If you read the timeline of the protests, you'll see that it started out as non-violent, and weapons shipments began in the middle of the protests, at least as early as March 11. Obviously it was a terrible suppressive regime, but it wasn't completely one-sided. 400-500 government forces were killed along with the 2000 protestors.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Syrian_Civil_War_(January%E2%80%93April_2011)

Quote :

"I don’t even understand why this is difficult. The US and it’s allies shouldn’t engage in imperialism and a lot of the worst ills in the world are directly or indirectly related to centuries of that. Also, you shouldn’t crackdown violently on non-violent protesters and use chemical weapons on civilians."

No one is saying the crackdown on protestors was okay, nor the use of chemical weapons. The problem is people like TerdFerguson calling Assad "genocidal" because of what resulted from the US's actions. This type of language is what allows our continued military interventions to happen. History will look back and say Syria was justified because Assad was crazed and genocidal. We need level-headed criticism to produce level-headed actions.

[Edited on April 23, 2018 at 11:10 AM. Reason : .]

4/23/2018 11:04:22 AM

Just so we’re clear: you are claiming that me calling Assad genocidal should be considered outside the norms of level-headed criticisms but you claiming a dust storm caused foaming at the mouth, uncontrolled convulsing, and burnt corneas is just raising legitimate questions and well within level-headed discussions of Syria?

4/23/2018 2:07:38 PM

https://www.livestrong.com/article/277976-signs-of-asphyxiation/

I also offered the option of thermobaric weapons, or yeah, chemical weapons. I was only trying to illustrate that our response was blatant propaganda, given that we had no tangible proof.

Especially you consider that we had already dropped tens of thousands of bombs in the past year, and we were already building more military bases in Syria.

Why are you eating this up? Why do you think we are actually in Syria?

[Edited on April 23, 2018 at 2:27 PM. Reason : .]

4/23/2018 2:25:12 PM