Quote :

"You could do a lot with dumbbells, compound movements are great."

Man makers + pull-ups and don't bother with anything else.

11/30/2012 11:38:05 AM

Quote :

"Feels like I'm up to 230lbs now. Sigh. It's going to be a long winter."

If there's a good time to be fat, it's winter. Being cold all the time sucks.

11/30/2012 11:44:09 AM

true, just a matter of being able to trim it down by summer

11/30/2012 11:44:51 AM

I've just opted to stay away from the bulking and cutting cycles. When it comes around to spring and summer, I'd rather be 10 or 15 lbs from ripped instead of like...40. Yeah, it means that the gains won't come as fast, but it also means less time on a hard deficit.

11/30/2012 12:01:01 PM

I can agree with that one.

I will probably be in the 20-25 over range myself

11/30/2012 4:31:11 PM

your body will reach a point very quickly where it's impossible to make size gains without cutting and bulking.

11/30/2012 6:07:57 PM

I can't disagree with that. I guess I'm thinking of more extreme cycles where guys eat whatever they want for a few months and then try to cut. I'd like to see a calculated increase in calorie intake to facilitate growth or the opposite if necessary. At some point, you aren't fueling gains anymore, you're just getting fat.

[Edited on December 1, 2012 at 2:42 AM. Reason : ]

12/1/2012 2:41:37 AM

From what I've gathered, you can make the most gains in strength and muscle mass with body fat in the range of 15-20% (This may be a little off). I don't think there's any hard scientific research behind that, just anecdotal reports. But it seems to make sense.

[Edited on December 1, 2012 at 7:59 AM. Reason : #s]

12/1/2012 7:56:53 AM

What's your preferred method of measuring body fat that you can do at home?

I mean, I know how to google, but I'm asking you guys opinion

12/1/2012 9:48:32 AM

the eyeball caliper is my preferred method.

12/1/2012 5:40:00 PM

Woke up this morning below 170. Decided this year I'm doing no fucking bulking because every year I never get my body fat low enough for the summer.

December is the best month to lose weight, because there's nothing to fucking do anyway!

If you're worried about holiday parties here is how you avoid gaining weight.

Fast all day until an hour or so before the party. This will assure that you don't have a 4,000-5,000 calorie type day. An hour or so before the party Eat a HIGH protein meal before you go with basically zero carbs or fat. (Think chicken breast with two scoops of whey protein and maybe some broccoli). Then when you get to the party eat what you want within reason but avoid the ridiculous stuff like chocolate cake. By eating a large amount of protein prior to the party you will be pretty satiated and not feel the need to fill your mouth with sausage balls.

You can eat fat/carbs here because you haven't had any all day prior to. The worst thing you can do is starve yourself before the party, because you will break down and eat a bunch of bullshit after you get drunk.

12/2/2012 12:33:23 PM

That's the intelligent way of doing it. I try to work out the morning of events that will involve eating so I don't feel bad about "facilitating recovery". My rule of thumb is that for every 1 day of buffet-style eating, you need about a week of controlled eating, but obviously that depends on how overboard you go with it.

It should be about having a flexible lifestyle. I don't want to be old and thinking back to my 20s when I had shredded abs but I was at home eating grilled chicken and broccoli while my friends were living it up. You can be in excellent shape without becoming a slave to vanity.

12/2/2012 2:52:00 PM

^^ Good lord, is there actually any benefit from downing 70-100 grams of protein in one sitting?

12/2/2012 3:03:19 PM

It will keep you full for 4-6hours. The more whole-food it is, the better the satiety.

[Edited on December 2, 2012 at 6:34 PM. Reason : #s]

12/2/2012 6:23:12 PM

you will shit a ton of bricks too


i do the easy and dumb way I guess....I take hyper shred. does nothing for my energy and workouts but man...will it curb appetite big time.

12/2/2012 10:39:08 PM

It's not uncommon for me to eat anywhere between 80g and 150g protein in about 2 hours time. It takes quite a while to digest that much protein. On the "satiety" scale, lean meat is way up there.

Some Australian scientists conducted a study and created "the satiety index". I haven't really looked in detail at their methodology, but most of what they found matches up with my personal experiences:

http://www.mendosa.com/satiety.htm

More here: http://nutritiondata.self.com/topics/fullness-factor

Apparently boiled potatoes are god tier when it comes to satiety.

12/2/2012 11:12:21 PM

Can you have too much protein? If so what happens to your body?

12/2/2012 11:36:30 PM

If your kidneys and liver are functioning properly, you will get too full from eating protein before it becomes hazardous.

Although, that's just wild speculation on my part.

12/3/2012 6:09:32 AM

^^There are some studies that say a really high protein intake may lead to excessive calcium excretion, but if you're strength training then your bones should be fine. And I think some of those studies have been debunked anyway.

^Agreed. Your body will be fine as long as you don't have preexisting liver/kidney issues.

And if you're really that concerned with gaining weight, make sure you're staying around your calorie requirements for they day and not slacking with the exercise. BUT... if you are going to stuff your face, the high protein approach may be the most beneficial because you're less likely to store those extra calories as fat thanks to the increased thermogenesis and satiety from protein. Water-rich and fiber-rich foods will also help keep you satiated. Here's a chart:

12/3/2012 10:06:50 AM

If you're taking in large amounts of protein, make sure you're drinking plenty of water and peeing ~ every 2-3 hours

12/3/2012 3:19:55 PM

Quote :

"Good lord, is there actually any benefit from downing 70-100 grams of protein in one sitting?"

I do this virtually everyday when I come home from work if I don't go directly to the bar. And I literally weigh 170 lbs.

Then again, I don't usually eat anything all day prior to coming home from work. If I was eating a 2,000 calorie lunch at Red Robin I probably wouldn't do this.

12/3/2012 7:28:11 PM

^Do you do IF?

12/4/2012 8:17:58 AM

Yes and I love it, very effective with much less hunger than typical diets so its easier to adhere to. Probably about 3x a week my first food of the day is 6pm. I get free lunches ~2x a week so I don't pass those up but even still that's approximately a 12-14 hour fast depending on when I ate the previous night.


I do take a caffeine pill usually around 10 am or so that helps mitigate any food cravings, but it can be done without it. If you assume my metabolism is already getting a large boost from not eating though the caffeine only aids that.

I'm going to experiment next week with the longest fast I've ever tried. I think I can do 48 hours from Sunday night to Tuesday evening. Won't be doing much differently except my final meal will contain slow digesting proteins like eggs and a lot of leafy vegetables. Considering I will be burning a ton of fat and shedding an immense amount of water weight I'd expect 7-10 lb loss of weight in those 48 hours. At the end of the fast I will lift weights on bcaa + yohimbine hcl for extreme fat burning.

My goal is to train myself down to ~6-7% body fat ultimately. I'm not sure what I'm at now but I'd guess double that.

12/4/2012 8:47:33 AM

I LOOOOOOOOOOOVE IF.

I've been doing it on and off for two years, but for the past several months I've been more serious about it and have made great progress (weight, bf%, strength). I hate trying to explain it to other people though. Do you get a lot of questions? How do you respond without getting in to an hour-long discussion?

12/4/2012 10:15:11 AM

Quote :

"If you assume my metabolism is already getting a large boost from not eating"

That doesn't make sense. Your metabolism is not boosted, it's breaking things down to create energy. Keep this up for too long and your metabolism will slow down.

Quote :

" I think I can do 48 hours from Sunday night to Tuesday evening. Won't be doing much differently except my final meal will contain slow digesting proteins like eggs and a lot of leafy vegetables. Considering I will be burning a ton of fat and shedding an immense amount of water weight I'd expect 7-10 lb loss of weight in those 48 hours. At the end of the fast I will lift weights on bcaa + yohimbine hcl for extreme fat burning. "

I don't think this is a great strategy. What's the point of a 48hour fast? Your body is going to significantly start tapping in to protein stores after around the 18hour mark.

Trying to lift after your liver glycogen is depleted and body is stressed after 48hours of starvation is going to suck, and probably be a shitty training session.

I do not recommend your strategy.

12/4/2012 10:44:05 AM

Quote :

"m going to experiment next week with the longest fast I've ever tried. I think I can do 48 hours from Sunday night to Tuesday evening. Won't be doing much differently except my final meal will contain slow digesting proteins like eggs and a lot of leafy vegetables. Considering I will be burning a ton of fat and shedding an immense amount of water weight I'd expect 7-10 lb loss of weight in those 48 hours. At the end of the fast I will lift weights on bcaa + yohimbine hcl for extreme fat burning. My goal is to train myself down to ~6-7% body fat ultimately. I'm not sure what I'm at now but I'd guess double that."

I routinely fast for 18-22 hours, but I think the extreme fasts of 36 hours carry some risk. Yes, of course you're going to lose weight, but the longer you're going without food, the more likely your body is to start tapping into intramuscular sources for energy. Larger deficits generally yield more fat loss, but it's a double edged sword. Hormones take a hit with rapid fat loss. It's a little ironic when these guys at 6% BF have the libido of a 90 year old man. Great, you look like a greek god, but you're getting shafted by your own endocrine system after extreme dieting.

Fat loss is easy. Gaining muscle is hard. There's no reason to sacrifice any muscle at all on a diet.

Quote :

"Do you get a lot of questions? How do you respond without getting in to an hour-long discussion?"

People at work somehow found out/noticed that I don't eat during the day and they thought it was really weird. Most of them told me about how it wasn't healthy and emphasized the importance of breakfast. I was thinking, "How's that working out for you?" I actually just said something like, "Well, works for me!" I'm not an evangelist about it these days. If someone is genuinely interested we can talk about it, but I'm not going to argue with anyone or "defend" IF.

12/4/2012 11:29:06 AM

Quote :

"I LOOOOOOOOOOOVE IF. I've been doing it on and off for two years, but for the past several months I've been more serious about it and have made great progress (weight, bf%, strength). I hate trying to explain it to other people though. Do you get a lot of questions? How do you respond without getting in to an hour-long discussion?"

yooooo frand would you be willing to outline what you do from a female's perspective in terms of IF? everything i see online is mostly men doing IF - i would be interested in seeing how a normal female IFer eats throughout the day.

12/4/2012 1:15:58 PM

^me too. I hate breakfast anyway.

12/4/2012 1:28:16 PM

Fast 16 hours - Eat 8 hours.

High protein/Moderate Fat/Low or no carb in the morning.

High Protein/Moderate Carb in the evening.

12 x Body Weight to set total daily calories in a deficit if you want to lose weight. Subtract 10% if weight loss isn't occurring.

12/4/2012 1:57:43 PM

what hours do you fast?

when do you work out?

12/4/2012 2:01:54 PM

I've read women should only need to fast around 14 hours unlike men.

It doesn't matter when you fast technically, but its easiest to eat a big dinner and then fast the next 12-18 hours. Work up to it, don't try 18 hours the first day. Eat some slow digesting proteins before bed and take a caffeine pill the next morning and drink water and you won't even notice you skipped lunch .


It's best if you can train fasted but consume bcaa before you lift, then eat a huge meal after the workout.

But its ok if you've eaten a medium meal first, just try to give it a few hours before you lift if possible.


The key to fasting and losing fat is your RQ - Respiratory quotient. Everytime you eat your insulin spikes and your RQ goes to 1,(or close to it) and at 1 you are only burning carbs not fat.

While fasting your RQ drops steadily until it reaches 0.7 where you are burning pure fat and not carbs. The more time you can spend (within reason) at .7 RQ the more fat you will lose.

[Edited on December 4, 2012 at 2:53 PM. Reason : a]

12/4/2012 2:51:29 PM

Quote :

"would you be willing to outline what you do from a female's perspective in terms of IF?"

12/4/2012 2:52:28 PM

I did. But reading leangains.com is a good start for both men and women.

12/4/2012 3:01:53 PM

I generally fast from ~9pm-2pm. Not really a strict fasting protocol, it just happens due to my work schedule and it allows me to junk food and still look good.

I'll get to work around 5:30am, drink coffee or a calorie free energy drink, do work until 10:30am.

Train from 11-12/1:30p. Preworkout: 15grams of BCAA + Creatine. Periworkout: 15grams of BCAA. Post Workout 30grams of whey + 16oz of skim milk.

Lunch around 2p. Something substantial here. ~800-1,000calories.

Maybe another whey shake with milk.

Dinner around 8:30pm. Again, something big. ~800-1,000calories.

[Edited on December 4, 2012 at 3:17 PM. Reason : ;]

12/4/2012 3:02:20 PM

Quote :

"12 x Body Weight to set total daily calories in a deficit if you want to lose weight. Subtract 10% if weight loss isn't occurring."

Essh, I'd have to drop ~20% off that...minimum

^ Any suggestions on where to get BCAA's cheap? Stuff is sky high everywhere I've looked.

[Edited on December 4, 2012 at 5:50 PM. Reason : ]

12/4/2012 5:49:22 PM

face last time I checked you weren't a girl.

12/4/2012 6:01:45 PM

You shouldn't if you have any modicum of physical activity.

I get my BCAAs from truenutrition.com

The grape tastes just like dimatap

12/4/2012 6:01:45 PM

Yea, Other than working out, I'm at a desk or in my car 12 hours a day

12/4/2012 7:07:27 PM

Quote :

"Your metabolism is not boosted, it's breaking things down to create energy. Keep this up for too long and your metabolism will slow down."

Matt, you definitely know your stuff but this refutes what you've said.

Quote :

" Efficient adaptation to famine was important for survival during rough times in our evolution. Lowering metabolic rate during starvation allowed us to live longer, increasing the possibility that we might come across something to eat. Starvation literally means starvation. It doesn't mean skipping a meal not eating for 24 hours. Or not eating for three days even. The belief that meal skipping or short-term fasting causes "starvation mode" is so completely ridiculous and absurd that it makes me want to jump out the window. Looking at the numerous studies I've read, the earliest evidence for lowered metabolic rate in response to fasting occurred after 60 hours (-8% in resting metabolic rate). Other studies show metabolic rate is not impacted until 72-96 hours have passed (George Cahill has contributed a lot on this topic). Seemingly paradoxical, metabolic rate is actually increased in short-term fasting. For some concrete numbers, studies have shown an increase of 3.6% - 10% after 36-48 hours (Mansell PI, et al, and Zauner C, et al). This makes sense from an evolutionary perspective. Epinephrine and norepinephrine (adrenaline/noradrenaline) sharpens the mind and makes us want to move around. Desirable traits that encouraged us to seek for food, or for the hunter to kill his prey, increasing survival. At some point, after several days of no eating, this benefit would confer no benefit to survival and probably would have done more harm than good; instead, an adaptation that favored conservation of energy turned out to be advantageous. Thus metabolic rate is increased in short-term fasting (up to 60 hours). Again, I have choosen extreme examples to show how absurd the myth of "starvation mode" is - especially when you consider that the exact opposite is true in the context of how the term is thrown around."

As far as not being able to train after a mere 48 hours of not eating, this also refutes it as long as i take my BCAA prior to the workout.

Quote :

" A large body of research on sports performance during Ramadan concludes that aerobic activities, such as 60 minutes of running, has a small yet significant negative impact on performance. A very large confounder here is dehydration, as Ramadan fasting involves fluid restriction. That said, anaerobic performance, such as weight training, is much less impacted. However, more relevant and telling studies, which don't involve fluid restriction, show that strength and lower intensity endurance training is unaffected - even after 3.5 days of fasting. New research on fasted training supports this. If you read my review of that study, you'll see that the only parameter the fed group did better on was improvements in V02max, which is likely explained by the fact that the carbs allowed them to train at a higher intensity. However, note the other interesting results obtained in the fasted group. Also note that a review I did of another fasted endurance training study showed no negative effect of fasting on endurance or VO2max (quite the contary in fact). This can be explained by the lower intensity. In conclusion, training in the fasted state does not affect your performance during weight training, which is what most people reading this are interested in. However, training in a completely fasted state is still not something I recommend for optimal progress. Research is quite clear on the benefits of pre-workout and post-workout protein intake for maximizing protein synthesis. For this reason, I suggest supplementing with 10 g BCAA prior to fasted training."

[Edited on December 4, 2012 at 8:01 PM. Reason : a]

12/4/2012 7:58:16 PM

^ yeah they covered that in this BBC doc. Did anyone else finish it? It was fascinating.

http://www.brentroad.com/message_topic.aspx?topic=630072

12/4/2012 8:23:39 PM

Quote :

"Matt, you definitely know your stuff but this refutes what you've said."

Show me your results in 6months to 1 year and I'll eat my words.*

Trust me. Your strategy is not feasible. You may have some science backing the idea, but using 48hour fasts and enormous calorie deficits for anything longer than a 3-4 week period is going to be VERY hard to adhere to, and there are more optimal methods.

I've done something similar, in 2011 I dropped 25lbs in 10weeks to get around 7-9% body fat. Going 48hours with out eating in that period would have been hell.

*For the sake of discussion, clarify goals would be useful. I personally train for strength and then aesthetics. I want to compete in power lifting after my leg is fully rehab'd and looking good naked is better than not.

Why strength before looks? Because being strong, IMO, is way more useful and healthy (when body composition is good). Aesthetics are important, and my vanity (and marketing needs) requires me to turn be visually pleasing when I take my shirt off.

Getting strong, then lean, will transform your physique. Not doing so will cause you to spin your wheels.

Like I said, good luck getting strong or significant muscular development with your strategy.




[Edited on December 5, 2012 at 5:55 AM. Reason : moar words]

12/5/2012 5:46:07 AM

Trying to lose that 5/6 lbs that always comes up around the holidays and I always seem to gravitate towards eggs as part of my diet. I cut out the carbs that I normally eat for breakfast (toast/bagel/cereal) and replace it with 2/3 eggs and a slice of reduced fat swiss cheese. Then I'll have a protein smoothie for lunch (as opposed to a sandwich and chips).

Are the eggs that good of a substitute? My layman's understanding is that I'm getting a little bit of protein and keeping out a decent amount of carbs (not sure of the caloric comparison). It also seems like a lighter meal while still filling me up.

12/5/2012 9:36:43 AM

I wasn't trying to be a dick, that was a compliment.

My goal is to be under 10% bodyfat as quickly as possible without losing lean muscle mass.

I agree that in the long term I'd be better off focusing on strength and then leaning out, but I've tried that several times and I can tell you what's happened the last ten times.

I get injured, stop going to the gym for several weeks/months and I end up fat.

I used to be ripped at age 22. Not a huge guy, but almost no body fat and aesthetically pleasing. Since suffering nerve damage in my shoulder I've steadily gotten fatter and fatter. Now I'm nearly 20 lbs off my high thanks to fasting and eating clean. I still drink a ton, but I try to drink clean too
. For the most part I drink straight liquor or light beers so its just empty calories which aren't a big concern as long as I keep my macros in line.

A typical day diet for me would be 2 chicken breasts or 1 lb steak/ground beef, 3 scoops of whey, a package of broccoli, 20 oz whole milk, a cup of peanut butter, half a pack of spinach, 2 string cheeses, and 10-12 shots of whiskey. All of the food consumed between 6-9 pm usually with the whiskey stretching a few more hours.

As far as supplements I use creatine, multivitamin, vitamin d, calcium, fish oil, flaxseed oil, caffeine, bcaa (purple wraath, there's some other stuff in here). I also take yohimbine hcl sporadically before I go for 3-9 mile walks which I don't do often in the winter.

As long as my face gets back to being angular and I can rock a six pack I'm happy. I don't need to bench press 200lbs, squat anything, or deadlift. If I get in the gym twice a week and hit the cables, dumb bells, and pullup bar ill look good enough. That will also hopefully keep me out of surgery, doctors offices, and off heating/ice packs. It's hard to fuck with a slipped disc or torn labrum.

That clarifies my goals.

[Edited on December 5, 2012 at 9:45 AM. Reason : a]

12/5/2012 9:36:48 AM

the cup of peanut butter and 12 shots of whiskey is what, 2,000 calories?

your body doesn't have available protein during the daytime for protein synthesis due to your fasting, and protein synthesis shuts down when you consume alcohol. You're going to lose muscle like crazy on that diet.

12/5/2012 9:53:10 AM

Cass - here's my typical adapted-IF weekday:

wake up 7-8am: coffee

work until ~3pm

home (~4pm): fruit+peanut butter or fruit juice (depends on workout and time of workout)

workout

post workout meal (eaten as soon as possible after workout): high protein, moderate fat, moderate-low carb (depends on workout)

a few hours later I may have snack (depending on size and time of previous meal): high protein, moderate fat, low carb; nothing after 11-12pm

Three-ish days before through the first two days of my period I'll eat earlier (~2pm) and not as strict (more carbs, add dessert).

Saturdays vary but are similar to a weekday, I try to have my first meal around 2pm (I teach a fitness class at noon)

Sundays I stuff my face. OK not really, but I do use these as "re-feed" days. I usually have a "normal" breakfast-lunch-dinner and am not as strict with regard to calories/macronutrients. Bojangles is Sunday staple.

12/5/2012 10:42:12 AM

Whoops sorry a "cup" of peanut butter was a terrible description. I didn't think about how much that truly would be. Basically I stick a fork in and grab a slab.

I have plenty of protein available when I'm fasting because I eat about 150-200g of it when I eat so it should be releasing aminos practically the entire next day.

You have a point about the alcohol timing, its certainly not ideal, but I try to give a few hours after food consumption before I begin drinking. Perhaps I should drink whey at work and break my fast a few hours earlier to ensure I don't lose muscle? I can't drink in the morning or afternoon instead because I work during those hours.

Any suggestions?

12/5/2012 10:58:25 AM

don't drink? switch to GHB?

12/5/2012 11:15:36 AM

Anyone lacking in self control enough to drink half a bottle of liquor every night can't reasonably expect to have the self control necessary to develop and maintain a good physique. Its not that complicated. Switch to weed or amphetamine salts for your daily vice.

12/5/2012 11:22:37 AM

Hey, GHB is great for increasing HGH, so great idea

12/5/2012 11:28:31 AM

Quote :

"You have a point about the alcohol timing, its certainly not ideal, but I try to give a few hours after food consumption before I begin drinking. Perhaps I should drink whey at work and break my fast a few hours earlier to ensure I don't lose muscle? I can't drink in the morning or afternoon instead because I work during those hours. Any suggestions?"

You're treating drinking as a priority, so obviously that's going to interfere with your goals. 6 months down the line when you're on the beach looking flabby, you're not going to care that you were able to drink during the winter. You can use some discipline in the coming months and get to where you want to be, but not without sacrificing some of your wants in the present.

The problem with fat loss is that, in the moment, we like to believe that we can be ultra disciplined robots that eat at a deficit and train hard for as long as it takes to lean out. When you're on a sustained extreme diet, your body is screaming "fuck vanity, feed me" and will pull out all the stops to hold onto that last bit of fat. Fat loss is stressful, so when you're dialed in (macronutrients good, micronutrients good, getting quality sleep) it's a lot easier. Alcohol, having calories, zero nutritional content, and augmenting the shit out of your sleep cycle, isn't productive. Even the oft cited LG article on alcohol makes it pretty damn clear that if you want to drink it's not going to ruin your progress, but you have to do it intelligently. He certainly wasn't advocating heavy drinking 3-4 nights a week.

[Edited on December 5, 2012 at 1:01 PM. Reason : ]

12/5/2012 1:00:12 PM