Quote :

"i guess asking for reasonable features at a reasonable price really IS asking too much "

yes, getting a top notch gaming console with free online gaming and built in media center features on top of a Blu-Ray player that upconverts DVDs is just not enough reasonable features for a $400 retail price.

Keep on with your stupid rhetoric about Sony screwing the consumer. The only thing you can find to bash them on is because they fail to put an outdated IR port on their console. I, for one, like having a remote that doesn't require a direct line of sight to the device I'm trying to use a remote on. I wish my TV and cable box had the same technology.

[Edited on February 19, 2008 at 12:29 PM. Reason : Maybe Sony will manage to manipulate the universal remote marketplace to start innovating again]

2/19/2008 12:26:44 PM

Quote :

"The console market is different from the stand-alone player market."

in this case, i disagree completely...the ps3 as a gaming console is secondary to its use as a blu-ray player (just look at the fantastic lack of games worth playing)...it's almost as if sony decided to push its next gen media format before it pushed its next gen gaming console

Quote :

"Now I'm not saying that any player is better than any other... but Sony DID play its cards right. They know what they're doing. They've learned a lot of lessons, and this time Toshiba made the same mistakes that Sony did with Beta."

well, i'm not entirely sure anyone can say one player is better than the other - the quality of the video image is equal in terms of both br/hd-dvd, and since all br/hd-dvd players had to conform to the initial specs, i think you could safely say that out of the box, all players for their respective formats are equal...i don't quite understand your point, though...you're saying toshiba undercut everyone else, and yet the best value blu-ray player is a sony gaming console? how did sony NOT undercut everyone else?

Quote :

"I bought my PS3 to play games. The fact that it's one of the highest quality + most customizable Blu-Ray player around is just icing on the cake."

i just don't see this...since its inception, the ps3 has had shit for games...what game(s) could possibly compel you to spend $400 on a console? it almost makes sense if you said you bought it to play blu-ray movies and that its functions as a gaming console were icing

Quote :

"Again, you're right. It would be nice if they had included a remote. But for something that is so easily remedied, I just think you're making too big of a deal out of it. The PS3 is a great value at it's current price point."

yes, but sony doesn't do "nice"...they push as far as they think they can get away with...if they can make you drop more money on accessories, huzzah for them...they know that the same kind of people who will drop $400+ to watch movies will happily drop more money on making it function like their competitors' hardware out of the box (because, i'm not entirely sure anyone in this thread will disagree that the average hd-dvd player is more functional and feature-packed than the average blu-ray player...the very fact that hd-dvd players were upgradeable should prove that)

look, i'm not arguing that blu-ray is the better technology, because it IS...i'm glad the superior format won out, but could it come from a worse company? i mean, really? is there any technology company in the world that is better at fucking consumer with their proprietary and over-priced (albeit superior) technology than sony? of course there isn't

Quote :

"yes, getting a top notch gaming console with free online gaming and built in media center features on top of a Blu-Ray player that upconverts DVDs is just not enough reasonable features for a $400 retail price. Keep on with your stupid rhetoric about Sony screwing the consumer. The only thing you can find to bash them on is because they fail to put an outdated IR port on their console. I, for one, like having a remote that doesn't require a direct line of sight to the device I'm trying to use a remote on. I wish my TV and cable box had the same technology."

unfortunately, as a gaming console, the ps3 sucks...there's hardly shit to play, but i suppose after a year or two it might get better...way to pay the premium in the hopes that there might be something worth doing on your gaming console

and yes, i agree that bluetooth is better than IR...i love using my wiimote to control my television...that said, no one had argued with me about the fact that sony isn't targeting the average consumer (or are you saying that the average consumer LIKES using a ps3 controller as a remote?)...instead, they tell the average consumer that if they want traditional and intuitive technology, they're going to have pay more for it

[Edited on February 19, 2008 at 12:36 PM. Reason : .]

2/19/2008 12:32:56 PM

yeah i think he's just bitching to bitch more than anything

Quote :

"the slim PS2s that they've been making for the last 3.5 years have had IR ports."

how long after the ps2 was out before they added that little feature? 5 years about?

Quote :

"sony is a shitty company in the way that they consistently and intentionally fuck the consumer,"

not saying they don't


by picture quality i mean, better than other blu-ray players, i could be wrong on this but i recall hearing it somewhere a bit ago.

Quote :

"hd-dvd players, though, were a lot lower than that pretty early on (obviously not at the get-go), and they were user-friendly, feature-packed, and upgradeable from day one"

obviously superior enough to defeat their rival in a free market environment... oh wait

Quote :

"how did sony NOT undercut everyone else?"

aren't most of them about the same price? or with 50 or so? under cutting via toshiba was more akin to a few 100...

[Edited on February 19, 2008 at 12:38 PM. Reason : s]

2/19/2008 12:36:12 PM

^^that's not fucking a consumer - that's making them pay for all the research and engineering that went into the product.

Quote :

"unfortunately, as a gaming console, the ps3 sucks...there's hardly shit to play, but i suppose after a year or two it might get better...way to pay the premium in the hopes that there might be something worth doing on your gaming console"

what games are they lacking when you don't play first person shooters? Madden and Tiger Woods seem to play just fine on my PS3, along with all my old PS2 games (with the exception of DDR). The only racing game to ever be worth my time is Gran Turismo, and good luck finding a copy of that for a 360. The GTA series is due to be released in April. How many games could you possibly need?

[Edited on February 19, 2008 at 12:42 PM. Reason : first person shooters are more appealing on PC anyway.]

2/19/2008 12:37:19 PM

Oh god, I can see where this going now. I advise all involved parties to just pull out now. Just let the kid have his meltdown and leave it alone.

2/19/2008 12:38:01 PM

meltdown? hardly...i don't have a next gen player of any kind because i'm not a consumer whore...i see no reason to pay a premium to watch television (you know, as opposed to doing something physical with my time instead of sitting on my ass all day watching a screen flicker)

2/19/2008 12:40:30 PM

yeah, i agree, this thread is over for all intents and purposes anyways, keeping the BR movies/player deals thread is the only one thats practical right now

i think he just hates sony, not that i love them but i don't hate them either...

^ and yet your posting on tww.........

[Edited on February 19, 2008 at 12:41 PM. Reason : s]

2/19/2008 12:40:54 PM

^^Dude, all you're doing is bringing back old arguments from months ago. None of that shit matters anymore. We get it, you hate Sony, you think the PS3 is garbage. That's fine, I'm sure many people share your feelings. Don't give them your money. You'll be able to buy players from other companies in due time. BD != Sony as many people seem to think.

2/19/2008 12:44:12 PM

Quote :

"and yet your posting on tww......... "

yes, well, i'm at work and (believe it or not), this is the only constructive thing i can think of at the moment, since i'm so far ahead in my queue that i'll have till the end of march to chat all day on tdub and not get behind

Quote :

"BD != Sony as many people seem to think."

ah, but that's the kicker...blu-ray DOES equal sony unless you want to pay even MORE out the ass for it...sure, there have been other manufacturers making bd players in recent months, but for the longest time that wasn't an option, and everyone knows that without the gaming console, blu-ray wouldn't have had a chance

2/19/2008 12:52:42 PM

HEY

IF YOU SIT IN A THREAD

AND POST A FIVE POINT ESSAY NERD RANT

THEN YOU CLEARLY HAVE NOTHING BETTER TO DO WITH YOUR TIME THEN WATCH MOVIES

SO SHUT THE FUCK UP AND BUY A PS3

YOU CRYING TOOL.

2/19/2008 1:03:42 PM

Hell yah, come on HD-DVD Firesales.


I want some cheap HD DVDs.

[Edited on February 19, 2008 at 1:05 PM. Reason : New movies will still be coming out till March *crosses fingers for Cloverfield ASAP*]

2/19/2008 1:04:40 PM

More like, come on Serenity and the Bourne Trilogy on Blu-ray!!

http://www.homemediamagazine.com/news/html/breaking_article.cfm?article_id=12118

Quote :

"At least one of the two studios exclusive to HD DVD is already gearing up to join the other team. "While Universal values the close partnership we have shared with Toshiba, it is time to turn our focus to releasing new and catalog titles on Blu-ray," said Craig Kornblau, president of Universal Studios Home Entertainment. "The path for widespread adoption of the next-generation platform has finally become clear. Universal will continue its aggressive efforts to broaden awareness for high-def’s unparalleled offerings in interactivity and connectivity, at an increasingly affordable price. The emergence of a single, high-definition format is cause for consumers, as well as the entire entertainment industry, to celebrate.""

2/19/2008 1:07:19 PM

lol, while I have a HD DVD player I'll be buying up cheap ass HD DVDs that adds to my collection.

Soon, they'll have cheap combo players and I'll just have a mix library. As long as my wallet is happy, I'll be happy

2/19/2008 1:09:55 PM

so how cheap are HD-DVD players and movies gonna get?

2/19/2008 1:10:26 PM

^^I think the current crop of combo players is as good as it's gonna get.

2/19/2008 1:13:33 PM

you don't think Toshiba will release a combo player???


I do.

2/19/2008 1:17:20 PM

Quote :

"so how cheap are HD-DVD players and movies gonna get?"

well, DeepDiscounts have HDDVDs for 12 dollars now. I'm waiting for 2/3 for 20 bucks

2/19/2008 1:18:49 PM

i think they said they are ceasing production of hardware, not just the discs...

2/19/2008 1:20:33 PM

Guess I'll just pick a cheap combo player up on ebay if that ever happens. Until then HD-A35 and a PS3 will do me.

2/19/2008 1:21:27 PM

Ha ha ha to those who bought HD-DVD players.

2/19/2008 1:24:09 PM

put them back in the box and sell them as vintage in 20 years.


ebay

2/19/2008 1:25:27 PM

Yah, sucks I paid 45 dollars for a player that does HD and I get cheap ass movies now.

I'm actually glad the war is over just for the 100 or so HDDVDs that I've been wanting.

2/19/2008 1:25:51 PM

true dat.

2/19/2008 1:26:39 PM

2/19/2008 1:37:42 PM

Paramount + Universal need to get to pumping out some of their HD-DVD exclusives on Blu-Ray. Specifically, Hot Fuzz and Shawn of the Dead.

2/19/2008 1:45:31 PM

Quote :

"yes, getting a top notch gaming console with free online gaming and built in media center features on top of a Blu-Ray player that upconverts DVDs is just not enough reasonable features for a $400 retail price. "

That's great, but at the end of the day it's a console. So if Sony is capable of making one of those for so cheap when you look at the bang for a buck, why can't/won't they produce a player without all that that great PS3 functionality for under the price of a PS3 that might not be outdated 6 months down the road?

The best thing about HD DVD, even in it's death knell, was that if I wanted to watch high definition DVDs and just high definition DVDs, I didn't have to spend $400 for shit I didn't want.

[Edited on February 19, 2008 at 2:56 PM. Reason : .]

2/19/2008 2:55:16 PM

^http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economies_of_scale

2/19/2008 3:07:32 PM

Quote :

"yes, getting a top notch gaming console with free online gaming and built in media center features on top of a Blu-Ray player that upconverts DVDs is just not enough reasonable features for a $400 retail price. "

free online gaming in this case is not something I would use in favor of the PS3. I would gladly pay $50/year to have online gaming that WORKS.

I think we found our new Fanatik replacement....eleusis. wow what a fucking sony tool bag.

[Edited on February 19, 2008 at 3:16 PM. Reason : .]

2/19/2008 3:11:10 PM

2/19/2008 4:02:58 PM

Quote :

"free online gaming in this case is not something I would use in favor of the PS3. I would gladly pay $50/year to have online gaming that WORKS."

You would gladly spend money for the sake of spending money. The only thing you're going to get for $50 a year on a 360 subscription is ten times as many foul mouthed teenagers talking shit to you while playing online.

2/19/2008 4:13:21 PM

Quote :

".eleusis. wow what a fucking sony tool bag."

2/19/2008 4:17:48 PM

Quote :

"I think we found our new Fanatik replacement....eleusis. wow what a fucking sony tool bag."

pathetic.

AND flattering.



[Edited on February 19, 2008 at 4:53 PM. Reason : gh]

2/19/2008 4:49:05 PM

Quote :

"You would gladly spend money for the sake of spending money. The only thing you're going to get for $50 a year on a 360 subscription is ten times as many foul mouthed teenagers talking shit to you while playing online."

^, ^^ my point is proven yet again.

2/19/2008 5:09:00 PM

LG not giving up on HD DVD

Quote :

""LG believes that at this present moment in time, it is necessary to provide a player which supports both formats and therefore create simplicity and convenience for the existing HD DVD consumer."

http://www.pocket-lint.co.uk/news/news.phtml/12929/13953/lg-back-hddvd-disc-players.phtml



maybe I can one day get a cheap combo player !

2/19/2008 6:42:04 PM

How did i miss page 41.

The ps3 with a stand alone blu ray player above it.

Priceless

2/19/2008 6:58:35 PM

why hd dvd failed to compete (aside from all the allegations of bribery and corruption): http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080219-3things-hd-dvd-coulda-shoulda-done-to-be-a-contenda.html

2/20/2008 8:02:44 AM

Quote :

"yes, well, i'm at work and (believe it or not), this is the only constructive thing i can think of at the moment, since i'm so far ahead in my queue that i'll have till the end of march to chat all day on tdub and not get behind"

join the club

Quote :

"i think they said they are ceasing production of hardware, not just the discs..."

yeah, b/c you can get those BETA tapes so easily now...

[Edited on February 20, 2008 at 8:56 AM. Reason : s]

2/20/2008 8:54:45 AM

Quote :

"yeah, b/c you can get those BETA tapes so easily now..."

In fairness, (per Wikipedia) though Sony conceded Beta's defeat in 1988, they still produced it in some form until 2002.

2/20/2008 9:34:00 AM

^^^well from reading the first 2 points in that article it translates to...HD DVD was more consumer friendly and therefore failed.

2/20/2008 11:52:27 AM

^ actually, i think that's a fair assessment...i guess the problem is that, in an issue of technology like BR vs HD-DVD, it's not the consumer that matters, it's the studio support

they made good points - sure, HD-DVD was more consumer friendly, but that was just on paper...if it wasn't implemented (and it wasn't), then it makes little difference...all that was on the studio side

the DRM issue is meh...the average consumer doesn't care about DRM because i would think that in terms of things like blu-ray and hd-dvd, the early adopters are playing by the legal rules...so of course the studios jumped on the "this will stop those evil hackers!" bandwagon

and, really, had xbox and hd-dvd had a successful union, it might have played out differently...heaven knows, the ONLY reason blu-ray lasted as long as it did (and then eventually took over) was because of the ps3...without that, yet another superior technology would have failed due to its few (and yet major) drawbacks

2/20/2008 12:02:23 PM

while i do sympathize with people who invested in HD-DVD at this point, I can' t help but laugh at some of the ridiculous reactions by HD-DVD supporters in the various forums.

"Hi-Def Downloads will stop Blu-Ray from ever being adopted!!!!!"
"Did you see how Toshiba mentioned Flash memory in their press release? Movie Cards are the future!!!"

It's amazing how deeply people get invested (not just financially) in this type of bullshit.

2/20/2008 12:12:52 PM

the problem imho, was that studios interpreted PS3 owners who bought Blu-ray as ALL DVD consumers which isn't fair to judge all 240 million Americans who own DVD players based on 3 million Americans who own PS3's on what the next movie format should be.

but as someone said earlier i guess it came down to sales are sales and with retail stores pushing Blu-ray players because of it's higher profit margin... and studios falling in line because they "think" it's the consumer demanding Blu-ray, well in turn it ends the war before it even got started... which again maybe unfair to the consumer in giving them a choice, but great for studios who have BILLIONS to make by choosing the format for us, thus reducing manufacturing costs and making it easier for consumers to buy into one format sooner, rather than waiting for the format war to end.... the benefits? well hopefully we'll see blu-ray players come down in price now that they'll start mass producing it, and Blu-ray discs come down in price because of wide-spread demand... and the fact that there's only one choice for us now, making it easier to invest in the next hi-def dvd format.



[Edited on February 20, 2008 at 12:16 PM. Reason : .]

2/20/2008 12:13:01 PM

or, you know... maybe they looked at the sales of DISCS. In which Blu-Ray was obliterating the competition.

or maybe what you said.

edit: this was never about how many standalone units were sold. That was just a figure that Toshiba could throw out because it was the only battle they were winning.

[Edited on February 20, 2008 at 12:15 PM. Reason : d]

2/20/2008 12:14:15 PM

^that's what i was saying with my first sentence, the fact that 3 million PS3 owners were buying Blu-ray discs helped the disc sales for Blu-ray

2/20/2008 12:16:58 PM

What would the best blu-ray player be right now for under $600? A friend of mine was thinking of getting this Sony Bravia from CostCo for $400, but I have always associated Sony with being overpriced. He is dead set on getting something this month (something about spending a certain amount on his masterard for a special cashback reward). I have always had a PS3 so I never followed the blu-ray hardware news.

2/20/2008 12:35:19 PM

i'd say the Samsung BDP1400
http://www.samsung.com/my/products/dvdplayer/blu_rayplayer/bdp1400.asp

2/20/2008 12:40:36 PM

Wow. Thanks again Prospero.

2/20/2008 12:48:34 PM

this may be a good read for your friend, and may want to consider just buying a PS3
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080118-new-nlu-ray-2-0-spec-makes-ps3-the-most-future-proof-player.html

2/20/2008 12:54:45 PM

Quote :

"the problem imho, was that studios interpreted PS3 owners who bought Blu-ray as ALL DVD consumers which isn't fair to judge all 240 million Americans who own DVD players based on 3 million Americans who own PS3's on what the next movie format should be."

Is this even a valid argument anymore? By Toshiba's own data, stand-alone Blu-ray player sales caught up to HD DVD player sales by the end of 2007. The PS3 helped a lot as a marketing vehicle and getting Blu-ray into the mainstream, but PS3 owners were hardly the only people buying the discs.

Quote :

"well in turn it ends the war before it even got started... "

Let's get one thing straight here, there never even should have been a war. This whole mess got started when Toshiba walked away from the negotiating table because Blu-ray wasn't going to be using the disc structure Toshiba patented for DVD. Hell, they originally wanted to use the same old red laser too, but realized it wouldn't give them enough storage. So, they decided to go up against Sony, Philips, Matsushita, and the rest of the CE industry with only half-assed backing by Microsoft and meager studio support.

They essentially took the same route Sony did with Betamax, but this time it wasn't for a superior technology, it was just so they could keep collecting patent royalties. This outcome was pretty much inevitable from day one.

2/20/2008 1:12:24 PM

^^He is a senior citizen. I don't think he would go for a ps3. I was avoiding the ps3. Mainly looking towards the ease of use. He has a dvd player, so something that looks the same and works the same would be best.

Thanks though.

2/20/2008 1:12:56 PM