Quote :

"We elect these people and they don't do fuck-all when it counts. See failure of Bailout yesterday."

This wasn't "not doing fuck-all", it was refusing to buy into panic, fearmongering, bullshit, and just plain bad ideas. The down-vote of the bailout has restored my faith in the US government to a marginal degree.

10/1/2008 1:53:46 AM

carzak, but still better than Obama.

Hey! This is exactly what I needed!!!

I'm starting to feel energized again. I mean, McCain may not be everything I hoped he would be, but he is certainly better than Obama. And that's the only choice we have left.

In the debates last week, neither McCain or Obama showed a passion for big-question political disucssion. Fine. But McCain beat Obama handidly on almost every topic, oddly enough especially on the economy where McCain essentially led the entire conversation.

Thanks guys. I guess it took the self-righteous attitude of a couple of the Obamatose to remind what's at stake at this election.

[Edited on October 1, 2008 at 1:59 AM. Reason : ``]

10/1/2008 1:56:27 AM

Quote :

"Hey! This is exactly what I needed!!!"

What a huge surprise -- another minute-to-minute 180 in opinion from Socks. The only thing constant day to day is that Obama sucks! Nevermind his near-congruency to Clinton, someone who you supported wholeheartedly.

Quote :

"I mean, McCain may not be everything I hoped he would be, but he is certainly better than Obama."

Since your ideal candidate was Clinton I'd love hearing how the hell you rationalize this.

Quote :

"I guess it took the self-righteous attitude of a couple of the Obamatose to remind what's at stake at this election."

Your vote, individually, will decide nothing. Whatever's at stake here, it's not your dignity since you threw that out of the window a long time ago.

You're the only "Democrat" I've ever seen more pathetic than Alan Colmes. I can just see you standing amongst a bunch of Neo-Conservatives chuckling softly and shrugging, saying "I guess I'm one of the good ones, eh guys? HEH."

10/1/2008 2:00:41 AM

^ hhahaha who are you? and what makes you think you know anything about who my ideal candidate is? You will actually never once find me saying I supported Hillary, only that from a progressive perspective she was better than Obama on the issues--do a search and you will see.

Wait. Don't answer. Because I really don't care either way. You already said you didn't want to discuss the issues, you just wanted to insult me. And your ol' lady talks dirty enough to me as it is. zing!!

Have a good night, whoever-you-are.

[Edited on October 1, 2008 at 2:10 AM. Reason : ``]

10/1/2008 2:04:48 AM

Quote :

"And House Democrats failed the American people when they couldn't even muster the votes to pass this bail out, dspite the fact they are in the majority (40% of Democrats voted NO!? Wtf?)."

yeah, and "despite the fact" that the public is strongly against it.
Democrat listened to their constituents then voted accordingly - OMG THEY FAILED THEM!

10/1/2008 7:09:37 AM

^ Wow. So your argument is that 40% of Dems did what was popular in their districts, NOT what they thought they was best for the country??? And that that's a good thing!? Yikes.

I guess that means the invasion of Iraq was a good thing too. After all, 70+% of Americans supported it at the time. Why question the soverign will of the "people", right? But something tells me you'll say that's different.

partisan bullshit.

10/1/2008 7:40:48 AM

Quote :

"yeah, and "despite the fact" that the public is strongly against it. Democrat listened to their constituents then voted accordingly - OMG THEY FAILED THEM!"

This is correct, Democrats voted against the bill for the right reasons and the House Republicans voted against it because of their egos and because they're crybabies. I learned that from somebody on here the other day.

10/1/2008 7:41:45 AM

Quote :

"Look at you. You supported Edwards. Then you supported Clinton. Now you support McCain. Other than white > white > white, I can't think of a larger maximally consistent set between the three. Oh wait, yes I can. Fail > fail > fail. It's hilarious how you're always picking the loser, even when you swap parties to avoid picking a black. I mean damn."

Hahaha

10/1/2008 8:41:31 AM

^

10/1/2008 8:46:06 AM

I honestly had a hard time choosing which line was best.

I like where he reminded Socks that he made faustian deal out of spite, and received only fail in return.

"Pulling a Lieberman," if you will.



Oh, and *toot* *toot* here comes the fail train!

Quote :

"Florida: Obama 51%, McCain 43% Ohio: Obama 50%, McCain 42% Pennsylvania: Obama 54%, McCain 39%"

http://www.quinnipiac.edu/x1284.xml?ReleaseID=1218&What=&strArea=;&strTime=0


[Edited on October 1, 2008 at 9:12 AM. Reason : ]

10/1/2008 8:59:56 AM

Haha, that poll is awesome but I'm sure it's far from accurate. If Obama was really leading that big in Ohio and Florida, McCain would just concede. Obama doesn't even need them to win, all he needs his Colorado + New Mexico + Iowa + all the 04' Kerry states. That's been his campaign strategy from day one.

10/1/2008 9:15:47 AM

How original. If you don't support Obama you're either a spiteful Puma or a closet racist. Is it a wonder I'm getting tired with this election?

But the truth is that I didn't leave the Democrats so much as the Democrats have left me. On all fronts, Democratic policy proposals have shifted to providing red-meat to its progressive base, just like the Republicans did in 2000.

This is not what Democrats were about 10 years ago. Bill Clinton cared about making good policy. And that meant occasionally embracing ideas that were contrary to Democratic orthodoxy (NAFTA, Welfare Reform, Deficit Reduction, etc). He showed that you can still want to use the government to help the under-prevliedged while still appreciating that the market system is the best way for raising overall living standards.

Obama has never once shown this quality. He changes his mind constantly on major issues and the only way to explain those changes is by looking at the polls (just ask Boone, he's still looking for a reasonable excuse for Obama's 6 positions on the war in Iraq). That is NOT change I can believe in.

So say what you want. If you're accusing me of caring about policy more than about the letter that comes after someone's name, then I can only say I'm guilty. See yah!

[Edited on October 1, 2008 at 9:31 AM. Reason : ``]

10/1/2008 9:29:55 AM

Hey, they don't call it the white house because of the paint job , eh Socks`` ?

10/1/2008 9:33:09 AM

PS*

Before anyone brings up Edwards again, let me remind you that my softening support of Edward's health care plan, which I thought was his most attractive policy proposal, has hardly been a secret (see below). But in truth, I did like the fact that he was a detailed policy wonk and that made me trust his decision making more--even when I disagreed with him. Obama, on the other hand, surrounds himself with smart economists and then apparently doesn't listen to them. Sound like anyone else you know?? *cough* GW Bush *cough*

Quote :

"Here is an article that I think all Democrats should see. The kicker quote: “It’s a nice thing to think, and it seems like it should be true, but I don’t know of any evidence that preventive care actually saves money,” said Jonathan Gruber, an M.I.T. economist who helped design the universal-coverage plan in Massachusetts. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/08/business/08leonhardt.html?_r=1&oref=slogin The reason all Democrats should see this is because they all seem to over estimate the cost-savings of preventive medicine. I sure did. Up until earlier this year, I used to be solidly behind some form of universal (or near universal) health care coverage (ala the Edwards/Clinton plan). I thought it would help improve access to health care services among the poor and that it would help address the problem of rising health care costs that plauge the middle class that already have insurance and pay taxes. Articles like this seem to indicate there really are almost no cost-savings to preventive care. So while the Edwards plan would certainly improve access for the millions of people that can't afford insurance at some point in their lives, it will not help rising costs, which is the true problem for the middle class."

http://thewolfweb.com/message_topic.aspx?topic=539098&page=2

[Edited on October 1, 2008 at 9:38 AM. Reason : ``]

10/1/2008 9:35:37 AM

Quote :

"Look at you. You supported Edwards. Then you supported Clinton. Now you support McCain. Other than white > white > white, I can't think of a larger maximally consistent set between the three. Oh wait, yes I can. Fail > fail > fail. It's hilarious how you're always picking the loser, even when you swap parties to avoid picking a black. I mean damn"

ftw

10/1/2008 9:37:35 AM

^ partisan hackary makes me lose sleep at night.

[Edited on October 1, 2008 at 9:44 AM. Reason : ``]

10/1/2008 9:39:25 AM

Quote :

"Report: 60 Million People You'd Never Talk To Voting For Other Guy BOSTON—According to an eye-opening report released Tuesday, 60 million people whom you would never talk to, would never be in a position to talk to, and wouldn't even be able to talk to if you tried will be voting for the other candidate in this year's presidential election, and there is nothing you can do about it. The 110-page document reveals that these strangers share a fundamental vision of our nation's future, a vision that shockingly runs completely counter to your own and is furthermore embodied by the candidate whom you could not in a million years fathom being the leader of the free world. Even more frightening, the report says, is that their votes count just as much as yours. Enlarge Image Barack and McCain "While you are 100 percent certain that your preferred candidate's stance on issues such as foreign policy and the economy would appeal to any human being with half a brain, there is, in this very same country, an equally large voting bloc which believes that you and your candidate of choice are absolutely insane," the report's co-author Dr. Mark Grier said during a press conference. "Every single thing you love about your candidate's personality, vice presidential pick, and family, 60 million other registered voters absolutely deplore." "

Quote :

" "I'm voting for [the other guy] all the way," Ohio resident Ethan Washburn said in a statement Monday. "I think that when it comes to foreign and domestic issues, he is best suited for the job. And anyone who thinks otherwise is an idiot." "I'm voting for [the candidate opposite of Washburn] all the way," Florida resident Tom Redman said in a statement Monday. "I think that when it comes to foreign and domestic issues, he is best suited for the job. And anyone who thinks otherwise is an idiot." Remarkably, the one thing you do have in common with these 60 million other people is that you both know several assholes who are actually planning to vote for a third-party candidate, if you can believe that shit. "

http://www.theonion.com/content/news/report_60_million_people_youd

10/1/2008 10:00:18 AM

Quote :

"He showed that you can still want to use the government to help the under-prevliedged while still appreciating that the market system is the best way for raising overall living standards. Obama Edwards has never once shown this quality. He changes his mind constantly on major issues and the only way to explain those changes is by looking at the polls"

fixed it for you.

I mean really. Mr. Populist himself.

10/1/2008 10:05:22 AM

gg, b (the "b" stands for "balls")

Not only does he blame Obama in one sentence and say it's not the time to place blame in the next, but he lies about it the very next day just for funsies.

10/1/2008 10:23:56 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxgSubmiGt8

discuss?

10/1/2008 10:45:54 AM

The battle ground polls appear to be shifting for Obama currently. How in the world these voters think that the economy will be improved by putting a capitalism-hating marxist in charge is amazing.

Pelosi + Reid + Obama = 2 years of disaster and then the end of the democratic party?

10/1/2008 10:50:59 AM

Personally, I'm looking forward to the Obama administration that seems so inevitable now. I mean, look how great having one party control congress and the white house went during the first Bush term???? Man those were great time.

Of course, I'm it's just because Republicans are fundamentally evil and not because of the incentives one-party control creates (conformity as opposed to bipartisanship). I mean, Democrats have a strong desire to govern well, right? They're a better breed of politican that would never allow electorial politics drive the most important decisions of our time.....

o wait.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/09/30/2377516.htm

None of it fucking matters anymore.

[Edited on October 1, 2008 at 10:56 AM. Reason : ``]

10/1/2008 10:53:17 AM

Quote :

"Pelosi + Reid + Obama = 2 years of disaster and then the end of the democratic party? "

Do you really think the dems are going to retake congress?

10/1/2008 10:58:30 AM

I agree earthdogg. Hopefully people will wise up a bit. Still some time

10/1/2008 10:59:48 AM

socks do the thread a favor. stop floundering.

if the only thing that emboldens you in this election is the irritation at the zeal obama fans feel about their candidate, then you live a sad truth.

10/1/2008 11:07:39 AM

^ How many people voted for Kerry because he filled them with hope of change? I thought so. Kerry was the best alternative to Bush, even if he was not ideal. Likewise, McCain is not ideal, but he is the best alternative to Obama. That actually is a sad truth and it is depressing me lately. But I won't appologize for it. I will only hope I feel better after the next debate.

10/1/2008 11:15:03 AM

I think the majority of people voting for Kerry did it because they felt they had no other alternative. I voted for him having no confidence that he would accomplish anything in the White House aside from ceasing to damage the world as actively as George Bush had.

And as for congress, the democratic congress was fucking WORTHLESS. They totally squandered the opportunity they had to undo the damage caused by the Bush administration and allowed themselves to be held hostage by a Republican minority.

Me, I'm voting for the chick who thinks a 15 year old girl raped and impregnated by her father needs to "choose life". That's my main issue. That and shooting wolves from airplanes.

10/1/2008 11:22:38 AM

Quote :

"McCain is not ideal, but he is the best alternative to Obama. That actually is a sad truth and it is depressing me lately. But I won't appologize for it."

No no no, that's not it. I applaud your sincerity there and am taking no issue with it. I'm referring to the hard time you give Obama supporters in particular....never mind the man himself

10/1/2008 11:25:20 AM

Why aren't more people talking about supreme court picks? Over the next 4 years, we'll very likely see 3 liberal justices either die or retire.

If they get replaced by conservatives, we'll go from a 4-1-4 to a 7-1-1. McCain getting elected means you can kiss Roe v. Wade, Griswold v. Connecticut, and all the other decisions conservatives don't like goodbye.

With that in mind, even if I didn't feel Obama was a great candidate, I'd still vote for him to keep that from happening.

10/1/2008 11:31:49 AM

Quote :

"No no no, that's not it. I applaud your sincerity there and am taking no issue with it. I'm referring to the hard time you give Obama supporters in particular....never mind the man himself"

oh haha. Many (not all) Obama supporters frustrate me because they never seem to voice any doubts they have about Obama's abilities or disagreements with his policies, which I think makes them intellectually shallow and that alone irks me. For the rare breed of excited Obama supporters that actually do think through the issues carefully, I still bust their balls because I am slightly jealous that they have a candidate they believe in strongly.

Really, I give most people a hard time that are not me. I'm a bit of a dick that way.

10/1/2008 11:47:07 AM

Quote :

"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxgSubmiGt8 discuss?"

This video, linking Obama to Freddie/Fannie is total and complete bullshit.

One of the candidates received OVER TEN TIMES the amount of donations as the other from Freddie/Fannie.

Want to guess who?



Hmm?

10/1/2008 11:59:24 AM

Best Case Scenario: Obama/Biden & the GOP retakes congress.

We do not have to worry about some reactionary bible thumpers entering the SCOTUS, NO SARAH PALIN, and the GOP can stop (besides to their favorite lobbyists) frivolous spending especially that requested by a liberal executive.

People like [user]eyebrb[/user] complain about Obama's socialist policies and taxes; this issue is mitigated by giving the GOP congress.

10/1/2008 12:26:40 PM

McCain gets snippy during an interview with a Des Moines newspaper


here's the whole thing

"Georgetown cocktail party"

[Edited on October 1, 2008 at 12:35 PM. Reason : .]

10/1/2008 12:34:41 PM

Quote :

"How in the world these voters think that the economy will be improved by putting a capitalism-hating marxist in charge is amazing."

Define Marxism.

10/1/2008 12:36:18 PM

Good lord, Clinton is killing it in Orlando, FL right now. Simultaneously explaining the need for the bailout for all you "informed Americans" and giving Obama a huge show of support.



[Edited on October 1, 2008 at 12:40 PM. Reason : :]

10/1/2008 12:36:43 PM

Quote :

"oh haha. Many (not all) Obama supporters frustrate me because they never seem to voice any doubts they have about Obama's abilities or disagreements with his policies, which I think makes them intellectually shallow and that alone irks me. For the rare breed of excited Obama supporters that actually do think through the issues carefully, I still bust their balls because I am slightly jealous that they have a candidate they believe in strongly. Really, I give most people a hard time that are not me. I'm a bit of a dick that way."

I understand.

I for the record have problems with Obama but still feel strongly he's the best guy for the job of the field that started this last year. He's not without fault, hell, far from it though. In particular, his energy policies are so vague it's troubling. He tends to play party line mixed with political convenience on any detail with his energy ideas...it's not that they've shifted wholesale, he just conveniently chooses times to highlight certain areas or retract from others depending on his political needs. Not a deal breaker but a disappointment. I've voiced this before in where I think he's crazy for not supporting more nuclear technology...I digress though.

For all his faults though I support him with enthusiasm because I've figured out that honestly the guy is very very intelligent and shrewd, he's very calculating under all that cool demeanor. To your point, If you measure that from the perspective of him trying to win the presidency given his obstacles (and you are not on his side), I can see how that would burn anyone up.

However i don't think that is the case if he is our president. I sincerely think he he's self aware enough that he'll seek others professional opinions about decisions and he'll think them through very carefully and rationally. That's a quality I put at the utmost top of my consideration list for a president, particularly because of the past many years. The gap between that and McCain's behavior is just too overwhelming, even if I did side on more issues with McCain (which I don't, just saying).

I can't help but play armchair psychologist here...

10/1/2008 1:26:13 PM

Palin supports strong abdominals:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081001/ap_on_el_pr/palin_joe_six_pack

10/1/2008 2:39:21 PM

^ that made me laff

10/1/2008 2:43:20 PM

Quote :

"The battle ground polls appear to be shifting for Obama currently. How in the world these voters think that the economy will be improved by putting a capitalism-hating marxist in charge is amazing."

give it a rest, dude. Your hyperbole is ridiculous. I seem to recall that you were reasonably balanced at some point in the past, but you've just gone off the deep-end recently.

Even with Obama and a Democratic House, the chances of large programs like Universal Healthcare getting implemented are still slim-to-none. I really don't see how much worse Obama could be, spending-wise, than Bush or McCain anyway

10/1/2008 2:55:25 PM

I hope you are right agent, but I take him at his word when he says he wants 270B in additional spending. (I really think that is a lowball too, kinda like how cheap this war was going to cost)

10/1/2008 4:25:19 PM

holy crap! new polls released a half hour ago in battleground states. Extremely big obama gains, strength over 50 on many, McCain will practically have to play defense everywhere.

I mean Missouri and Nevada? Virginia by 9?


From latest TIME/CNN state polls:

FLORIDA: Obama 51, McCain 47
MINNESOTA: Obama 54, McCain 43
MISSOURI: Obama 49, McCain 48
NEVADA: Obama 51, McCain 47
VIRGINIA: Obama 53, McCain 44

[Edited on October 1, 2008 at 4:46 PM. Reason : Sorry, I was in a rush. ]

10/1/2008 4:27:47 PM

Quote :

"270B in additional spending"

Even if this happens in light of the 700B bailout, I fail to see how this would be any different from Bush. Let's not forget we chose to invade Iraq.

10/1/2008 4:35:14 PM

already 400B in a deficit, whats an additional 270B right.. right. gtfo

^^check your math.

10/1/2008 4:42:34 PM

You missed my point.

I'm saying... even if the 270B gets through-- how would this spending be a departure from the last 8 years?

10/1/2008 4:46:04 PM

bc we are still spending money on the war, which is ending. Also, bc we are both are out of the 5th grade, so we can stop using the arguement that if someone else did it, its ok to continue it.

The fact is we have to CUT spending, not drastically increase it. Do you disagree?

[Edited on October 1, 2008 at 4:55 PM. Reason : .]

10/1/2008 4:50:13 PM

Quote :

"The fact is we have to CUT spending, not drastically increase it. Do you disagree?"

So are you going to write in "tooth fairy" on Nov. 4?

10/1/2008 4:55:56 PM

no, ill vote for the lesser of two evils. Whats your excuse? werent you for vouchers?

10/1/2008 4:57:40 PM

I wonder how much McCain's drop in popularity can be attributed to Palin.

Supposedly she identifies with "Joe Six Pack" since the rough economic times has caused her husband's 401k portfolio dropped $20,000.
Who are you kidding Sarah; most working class americans don't save for retirement and plan to live off of social security!

[Edited on October 1, 2008 at 5:33 PM. Reason : l]

10/1/2008 5:31:23 PM

Both his convention-bump and subsequent fall almost certainly are mostly to do with Palin. He, personally, gave no compelling reason for people to jump on board with him during the RNC. The bump is because of all the knee-jerk Palin supporters. And now that the Palin euphoria has worn off, those same people are leaving him again

10/1/2008 5:33:55 PM

concerning the Joe Six Pack remarks.....

1) Even though she's made >$100k for at least two years (and probably significantly less than than previously), and her husband makes close to $100k, let's not pretend that the Palins are anywhere near the same class as the other candidates. At ~$200k for the last 2 years, and <$150k previously (unless there are any other surprise sources of income when they release their tax returns), plus having 5 kids, plus living in a high-cost state, the are clearly in the upper middle-class. i.e. they're not struggling to pay the rent, but they are far removed from the McCains, Bushes, Edwards and Obamas of the world.
Of course, what doesn't get much/any play, is that Biden may be the poorest of them all, if his wiki page is to be believed:
"With a net worth between $59,000 and $366,000, and almost no outside income or investment income, he is consistently ranked as one of the least wealthy members of the Senate.[60][61][62] Biden states that he has been listed as the second poorest member in Congress, a distinction that he is not proud of, but attributes it to being elected early in his career.[63]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_biden

2) Can you imagine the shit-storm if Barack Obama or Biden, or any Democrat, or even most Republicans called the middle-class "Joe Six Pack"? Holy shit... they would be eviscerated for being so aloof and (OMG) elitist

10/1/2008 5:41:50 PM