If the Democrats want to win the WH, they are just going to have to bite the bullet and tone down the identity politics, because it just doesn’t land with a majority of Americans. You can call the entire country racist and bigoted, but that isn’t going to sway the majority of voters.

Also their ad money seemed way off point. I can’t tell you how many ads about Trump taking away abortive rights I saw. I’m a middle-aged male. Those ads aren’t all that relevant to me. So my take away there is they fell on the “Trump will kill reproductive rights” sword. Sure that wasn’t their only platform, but from the ads to which I was continuously exposed, that’s what it looked like.

[Edited on November 6, 2024 at 10:11 AM. Reason : Their not there]

11/6/2024 10:04:32 AM

Quote :

"I work in a manufacturing plant and Dem policies/actions just don't resonate with the floor workers at all. I don't know a single Liberal one. A SINGLE ONE. I'd say it's 90% focus on guns and illegal immigration. After that, continually (naturally?) rising costs and LGBTQIA+ stuff just puts Dems right into the gutter for them."

You don't have any African-American manufacturing employees at your manufacturing plant?

Otherwise, I can echo what you said.

11/6/2024 10:05:12 AM

Yeah, people seem to care way more about immigration and economy (which is a very broad and loose term that can be quantified in so many different ways) at the federal level. And polling shows they trust Republicans on those issues. Seems like they’re willing to vote for bluer policies (against abortion bans, for example) at the local level but that might not move the needle for them at the federal level as much.

Dems gotta figure out a way to move the needle on the economy and immigration. I don’t think it’s necessarily about being more or less progressive. I think it’s about messaging and narratives around those bigger issues that they just don’t resonate well enough on. I might really be wrong about this, this is just my initial hunch. But I think the identity politics stuff is more noise than anything. Yes, people get riled up about boys playing girls sports or whatever narratives Republicans throw out there. But that’s not what’s getting people to the polls. It seems like to me that Republicans do a far better job on scaring the shit out of their base and that fear gets them to the polls. Fear mongering about immigration and “communist” policies works.

[Edited on November 6, 2024 at 10:10 AM. Reason : H]

11/6/2024 10:05:47 AM

The economy is fine.

11/6/2024 10:07:20 AM

Quote :

" The economy iswas fine."

11/6/2024 10:10:15 AM

Quote :

"The economy is fine."

I’m not really arguing that the economy is currently bad. Just that republicans doing a far better job on that messaging.

11/6/2024 10:12:01 AM

^^I accept your revision. Thanks!

11/6/2024 10:20:16 AM

Quote :

"You don't have any African-American manufacturing employees at your manufacturing plant?"

They, especially the older ones, have the same worries non-black floor workers have, so I think most align with Repubs if they don't default to Dem "just because."

What do Dems vow to do for blacks? How have they fought for these platform ideals other than throw money into some nebulous "police force training" etc?
https://democrats.org/who-we-are/who-we-serve/african-americans/

Half of them see no need for those goals and the other half see that nothing real has been done.

[Edited on November 6, 2024 at 10:44 AM. Reason : presumptions, not from actual discourse]

11/6/2024 10:43:13 AM

That is basically exactly my experience of working in a shipyard as an engineer. “Don’t resonate” is an understatement. It’s more like “are anathema.”

Out of 5000-6000 people who worked there, I’m sure there was a Democrat in the mix, but I don’t recall ever encountering one. Like you, not ONE. Like your observation, they were pretty much concerned predominately with immigration, guns, and LGBT stuff (more trans stuff and gender identity stuff. They didn’t care as much if Bob was buttfucking Steve.) They mostly aren’t really aware of the mechanics of government, and they don’t really think about or care much about more esoteric things like the rule of law, preserving democratic norms, etc—they just see it as gun-grabbing, open-border tranny-lovers trying to find a way to get their guy.

So while those latter reasons were by far the most important reason to not elect Trump, those weren’t effective ways to campaign. The only people who understand and care have been against Trump for years already.

_____
*edit:

Oh, and racial stuff. They care about that, too. They aren’t racists in the sense that they dislike black people….but they fucking can’t stand the rhetoric on what the left would call “intrinsic racism.” It’s not that mostly don’t want the same things on that regard as the left, I think—they don’t want a shitty society for black people…but they do feel accused and sometimes maybe even impeded, when they don’t see themselves as racist at all (and they aren’t, by their definition.) The messaging in thr “intrinsic” part really needs to be approached in a different and constructive way. Saying essentially that America is a fundamentally racist society and white people have it easy and everydamnedthing is due to racism is a huge turn off and an incredibly poor way to present an issue that these people would otherwise be open to, maybe sometimes even sympathetic to sometimes, and in any case don’t need to be antagonized by.

[Edited on November 6, 2024 at 11:13 AM. Reason : ]

11/6/2024 11:01:24 AM

Quote :

"If the Democrats want to win the WH, they are just going to have to bite the bullet and tone down the identity politics, because it just doesn’t land with a majority of Americans. You can call the entire country racist and bigoted, but that isn’t going to sway the majority of voters."

This is delusional. Harris basically stfu about identity. Hillary kept talking about how SheD be the first woman, Harris didn’t go this route. Only brought up race when mostly republicans asked her about it

They ran Joe Biden in 2020…

Meanwhile trump constantly talking about transgender people, Mexicans, Congoese, Haitians, DEI, and his proxies straight up said white people are the most discriminated group

It hasn’t been democrats leaning on identity politics beyond just pushing back on the gops identity politics

11/6/2024 11:44:44 AM

Have you heard of Bayes' Theorem?

One formulation is: new belief = old belief * new evidence. It takes a lot of new evidence, repeatedly to update the belief. Just because Kamala didn't say shit once, doesn't mean it erases the last 8 years of BS. She had a lot of misses too (Not condemning trans prisoner surgeries for example) that didn't help correct the view.

[Edited on November 6, 2024 at 11:53 AM. Reason : a]

11/6/2024 11:47:56 AM

I’m choosing to believe the polling. The economy and immigration have generally been near the top of “most important issues to voters” polls. And voters seem to trust Republicans on those issues. I think it’s that simple. The trans stuff and the identity politics is just noise imo. I don’t think that’s what’s driving turnout for Trump.

[Edited on November 6, 2024 at 12:17 PM. Reason : Typo]

11/6/2024 12:01:29 PM

^^
That’s not a democrat policy. That’s a prison healthcare policy that none of us has the background to understand. That’s sort of a core problem with trumpism. They pick issues that seem controversial but actually have perfectly normal reasonable explanations (like the tampon thing). I can see why a campaign would do this— lying to people and whipping them into a frenzy is a good strategy. But in reality that’s actually a non issue. Smart people should not fall for transparently disingenuous propaganda

11/6/2024 12:32:16 PM

msnbc is saying... more people identify as republican now than democrat

wtf when is the last time that was true

11/6/2024 12:37:24 PM

MSNBC probably needs to be put on suicide watch at this point

11/6/2024 12:39:56 PM

no, they arent sad they are mad. They need to be red-flagged

11/6/2024 12:44:14 PM

Quote :

"I can see why a campaign would do this— lying to people and whipping them into a frenzy is a good strategy. But in reality that’s actually a non issue. Smart people should not fall for transparently disingenuous propaganda"

Who said these people were smart?

11/6/2024 12:45:59 PM

y'all....what did we think was going to happen here?

dems at the last minute introduced a "mostly" silent minority woman vp to win the hearts and minds of rural white america in an uphill battle going head-to-head against a recent former president with hella brand recognition and a cult following since the 80's and a perpetual campaign that hasn't ended since the last election???

the democratic party fucked this up from day one when waffling on biden. it would have taken a miracle to gain enough traction to move the needle. she's lucky it was as close as it was.

11/6/2024 12:48:40 PM

Quote :

"This is delusional. Harris basically stfu about identity"

I was explaining this part and how her not saying anything wouldn't have an effect or even negative effect. Whether or not it's a democratic policy doesn't matter. The only option to clean the perception of would be strong condemnation over and over.

Something between saying nothing and "if we find out a prisoner is trans they will be sent to the salt mine" would over time fix the perception.

11/6/2024 12:49:26 PM

polling as "a thing" needs to go away forever

anything beyond just asking a friend or coworker "so whatcha think about the election" or something

11/6/2024 1:00:16 PM

Moron, you had Barack Obama come out and try to shame black men into voting for Harris. That’s what I mean when I say identity politics. Not “I’m going to be the first black female president”.

Democrats have long since tried to convince the country that if Republicans run it, they’ll send every gay man and woman to conversion camps. Identity politics.

Sure, the Republicans do the same exact damn thing in the opposite direction with all the anti-woke BS. Probably even moreso, but they were louder on the economy and immigration.

How else do you explain what happened last night? It’s either that or her pick for VP. Or hell - she waited until the last minute to really start doing interviews. Trump was out there the entire time showing up on networks that he knew didn’t like him. She went on Fox News once when she knew there was no other choice.

11/6/2024 1:04:11 PM

Quote :

" Something between saying nothing and "if we find out a prisoner is trans they will be sent to the salt mine" would over time fix the perception."

That’s the morally and ethically wrong position. Politicians should not stoke people’s bigotry even if it might get votes, because political rhetoric doesn’t just stay as rhetoric, it shapes the character of the country. It’s one of the reasons crime actually got worse under trump, people see him getting away with crimes and they want to imitate.

11/6/2024 2:00:45 PM

Quote :

"That’s the morally and ethically wrong position."

It's a continuous line, not binary. I'm sure you'd find some position in between nothing and work camps that you would feel warm and fuzzy about.

11/6/2024 3:24:41 PM

we're in idiocracy...gotta give the people what they want and say what they wanna hear.

11/6/2024 3:29:21 PM

Quote :

"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard. -- H.L. Mencken"

11/6/2024 3:45:07 PM

^^^
Prisons should focus on rehabilitation so people aren’t a menace to society when they get out

Bootstrap every other prison policy from there. That might include sex change operations in some rare circumstances. Fine with me

Trump is a literal rapist and felon and lives a life of luxury, and is a huge menace to society. Some time in jail with a psychiatrist would help him

11/6/2024 4:07:31 PM

Quote :

"Trump was out there the entire time showing up on networks that he knew didn’t like him."

Assuming we we aren't counting the two debates, I must have missed this entirely.

11/6/2024 5:59:39 PM

I just can't believe I'm in the minority on this. More people voted for that guy. I figured after Jan 6 there was no way he'd ever win again

11/6/2024 6:49:31 PM

In retrospect, given what we now know about turnout, Harris should have gone on Rogan weeks ago. I think if she has more informal speaking opportunities and people saw more of the debate version of Harris she could have won

Trump was a coward to back out of the debates but it probably saved him

11/6/2024 6:52:02 PM

Joe rogan wouldn't have helped stop that level of support he got

11/6/2024 7:23:16 PM

She needed about 100k more votes in each of the swing states

I think a solid appearance could have made that

I had people sending me podcast appearances trump was that I didn’t see reported anywhere. I think he ended up roping in more smaller pockets by doing that

11/6/2024 7:35:52 PM

Certainly not by saying anything intelligent or substantive in those appearances.

11/6/2024 7:59:42 PM

I feel like i trust people less today than yesterday. Now that I know more people voted for him than Kamala, just makes me weary to think about speaking to anyone

11/6/2024 8:54:59 PM

Same. It's making me want to drop out of society.

11/7/2024 5:21:54 AM

Quote :

"figured after Jan 6 there was no way he'd ever win again"

And his complete fumbling of everything that happened in 2020. I certainly didn't expect or want him to win the nom. The boomer love is strong and suspect the Roe v Wade decision helped him with evangelicals.

11/7/2024 6:37:17 AM

Not really looking forward to being around some of my family and doing the holidays.... it's sad.

11/7/2024 9:22:16 AM

Thank you, President Trump, for being so polarizing as to break the bonds of family.

11/7/2024 9:24:41 AM

^^All you can do is be the bigger person and don’t bring up politics at all. And if they do, just let them say whatever they have to say and be done with it.

11/7/2024 10:19:52 AM

Yeah, that's what I have been trying to do for years.

I don't bring-up anything related to politics or religion, and most of the time I try my best to just ignore it, and when I'm directly confronted, I usually say "we shouldn't talk about that". But sometimes it's just too much.

It sucks, because I have to be try very hard to be the better person by being silent and walking on egg shells to avoid arguments.

[Edited on November 7, 2024 at 10:36 AM. Reason : ]

11/7/2024 10:34:29 AM

My brother and sister-in-law are on the complete side of the spectrum from me, and I really enjoy our political discussions. We never get angry with each other, and oftentimes end up finding common ground (mostly because I’m, believe it or not, pretty middle of the road. Even left of center on some issues).

11/7/2024 11:48:54 AM

That sounds nice. For some of my family, it's total irrationality. Reasonable discussions are impossible.

Rolling Stone:

Quote :

"“Donald Trump- the twice impeached former president, Jan. 6 coup leader, convicted felon, adjudicated sexual abuser, and man who mismanaged the 2020 economic implosion and coronavirus disaster that killed more than 1 million people in this country, has convinced American voters to give him another term in the White House. After a campaign marked by nativism, open bigotry, and aspiring authoritarianism, Trump triumphed over Vice President Kamala Harris, despite being denounced by several of those who worked most closely with him in his first term as a ‘fascist’. The 45th president will become the 47th in late January. Trump’s win demonstrates that the most powerful people in the country are indeed above the law. An elderly, foul-mouthed, racist game-show host can try, in broad daylight, while the TV cameras are fixed on him, to execute a coup d’état in our nation’s capital, people can die from it, and in a few shorts years be rewarded with the full-throated support of his political party, and now the keys to the White House. No matter what policies Trump does or doesn’t manage to shove through when he takes office in January, there is no doubt that he and his new Justice Department are going to shut down the federal cases against him. He will get away with it all, and his enemies will have to choke on that for the rest of their careers and lives. And that will just be the beginning.”"

11/7/2024 1:24:55 PM

Sad truth.

And you can expect and accept that Trump would be elated about that outcome, but that so many people endorsed his escape of all accountability is the more concerning element to me.

Many "good Christian" people, no less.

11/7/2024 2:52:22 PM

they're not good and they're not Christian

and, since these are now the rules of the game, anything you can get away with doing is fair play

they're gonna wish they'd thought this through because their adversaries are far fucking smarter than them

11/7/2024 4:46:45 PM

Well, yes. That's why I put it in quotes.

And smarter, yes, but perhaps also with more ethical boundaries.

11/7/2024 5:19:43 PM

i didnt vote for trump the first 2 times but decided to this time when i saw the dems waited 3 years to weaponize the justice system against him with criminal charges for election season.

11/8/2024 6:51:06 AM

He also declared his candidacy as early as possible so that the notoriously slow movement of the wheels of justice could be painted as political in nature. Then he used every tactic in the book to delay and deflect and escape accountability for his actions and inactions yet again. Good game, I guess.

11/8/2024 7:45:30 AM

Hmmm

I guess I don't really understand voting someone into office in order to help them escape some perceived wrong doing by the justice system or a political party.

It's not like the charges, the cases against Trump, or the investigation were "new"... They had all been cooking for quite some time. And instead of allowing the process to play out in court where evidence can be weighed and evaluated; you would rather hand Trump the ability to unilaterally end all federal investigations into his behavior?
Out of curiosity, did you believe the investigations into Hunter Biden were politically motivated? How would you have felt if President Biden unilaterally killed the investigation into his son? How would you feel if President Biden used his remaining days in office to pardon his son?


Don't cry over spilled milk, yada yada yada... It is baffling how one side is expected to have moral, religious, and lawful perfection and purity; while the other side can maneuver with absolute depravity and be rewarded for it.

[Edited on November 8, 2024 at 8:03 AM. Reason : h]

11/8/2024 8:01:48 AM

It would be more reasonable for someone to have voted for Trump the first time or two and voted against him this time following January 6 and his campaign rhetoric. beatsunc went the exact opposite direction.

11/8/2024 8:09:30 AM

^ The support across the population, even in minority groups, disagree with you. His campaign was flawless from about mid-summer on. Fascist Nazi attacks look pretty weak when Orthodox Jews are driving campaign buses around to support him. The Orange Cheeto/He's just a reality star attacks were smashed when he was shot at and took the baddest political photo of all time.

It was also clear the elite backing he didn't have shifted. Zuck refused to endorse anyone and he picked up the Silicon Valley crew and Elon, which used to lean in effect 100% Democrat.

[Edited on November 8, 2024 at 8:59 AM. Reason : a]

11/8/2024 8:55:15 AM

Quote :

"and, since these are now the rules of the game, anything you can get away with doing is fair play"

Kind of wondering why Crooked Joe hasn't ordered a drone strike on Mar-a-Lago yet. He knows he can get away with it, for fuck's sake. Just do it, and let us get straight to what's coming anyway

11/8/2024 9:03:43 AM