the number one thing that bothers me is the lack of fire i see in this team when we played ECU and Clemson

it reminds me of the mccauley/costner/grant/hickson days in bball

somebody is fucking everyone's girlfriend out there ... probably nate

11/7/2010 1:28:23 AM

I know I am glad we started Greene over Haynes...that worked out so much better.

11/7/2010 1:30:21 AM

^Haynes didnt play b/c of concussion

11/7/2010 5:52:19 AM

yup. Haynes would've definitely gotten more yards on all those runs up the middle.

11/7/2010 9:38:09 AM

dang packboozie i thought you were smarter than that man

11/7/2010 9:56:43 AM

so that loss might have sucked and all... but everybody lost... so we're right back where we started before the game.

11/7/2010 10:39:23 AM

Quote :

"still a shitty call imo. ...."

Yeah, I agree it was a shitty call, I wasn't trying to defend the punt. Just putting it into perspective about what would've happened if the punt went well and we got the 3 and out.

Regardless, with FSU's loss to UNC, I'm feeling a little better with our chances to get into the ACCCG (if we deserve it or not). Even if we win out and FSU wins out, we have the tie breaker, right?

11/7/2010 10:39:45 AM

^ it still remains we should have the ACC by the balls after yesterday.

11/7/2010 10:40:01 AM

Quote :

"yup. Haynes would've definitely gotten more yards on all those runs up the middle."

i know you're being sarcastic, but that is very much the case. haynes gets 3 yards on runs where greene would get stopped for nothing. different styles of running. we really missed having haynes yesterday.

11/7/2010 11:24:48 AM

M. Greene 114 521 4.6 4
D. Haynes 80 312 3.9 3



^ you were saying ?

11/7/2010 11:39:30 AM

Pretty sure the reason we couldn't run is becuase our offensive line got manhandled by the best DLine in the ACC and one of the best in the nation...not becuase Moose is a poor RB and no way Haynes would have done any better.

11/7/2010 11:44:53 AM

^^ I think he's referring to the up the middle runs...Haynes = 2-3 yards....Greene = -1 yard.

Do you people even watch the games or just throw stats you find after the fact? If you take away 3 or 4 plays this year their averages are pretty much the same. Greene has been able to punish teams for not playing tight run defense. Haynes doesn't have that break away speed but he can pound out a couple of yards, which is all we really needed.

11/7/2010 11:53:21 AM

^ unfortunately, you are incorrect. Haynes would have fared no better

11/7/2010 11:56:32 AM

Against Clemson? Maybe so. But he's shown it against other teams this year.

11/7/2010 11:58:56 AM

^^^that's a pile of horse shit. The threat of explosive plays from the run game loosens up defenses for the passing game. Andrew Luck is doing well because stanford has one of the best rush offenses.

I can't believe someone would say they are fine with eschewing explosive play for someone who can get 3-4 yards. It's not like a single explosive play can change the tide of the game, right?

[Edited on November 7, 2010 at 11:59 AM. Reason : .]

11/7/2010 11:59:27 AM

Quote :

"Haynes doesn't have that break away speed but he can pound out a couple of yards, which is all we really needed. "

I'm not a big fan of Haynes, but if you want to talk about pounding the ball, Moose is by far the more physical back. Haynes is a step quicker, but Moose's balance, vision, and power make him the elite back in every aspect other than blocking.

Haynes honestly reminds me of Greg Golden trying to play RB until TA McLendon unseated him. A quick guy that looks like a CB playing RB, that fumbles on heavy contact, and that does not have the natural instincts and vision to play RB at this level. Haynes isn't nearly as bad as Greg Golden was, but I think he has a low ceiling when it comes to talent at the RB position. IMO, Moose will be one of the best in the league when all is said and done

[Edited on November 7, 2010 at 12:04 PM. Reason : ]

11/7/2010 12:01:59 PM

^^ I didn't mean say we don't want explosive plays. I was pointing out we NEED Dean Haynes b/c Greene, while able to explode when he gets a good crease, isn't able to pound out yards.


BTW, take away the 21 yarder against UCF, the 31 yarder against Cinci, and the 49 yarder against VT. Greene's average drops to 3.78 per.


[Edited on November 7, 2010 at 12:06 PM. Reason : Really we need both of these guys.]

11/7/2010 12:03:54 PM

I think the benefit of an offseason college weight training program will do moose wonders. I'm betting that next season you'll see that this won't even be arguable. Remember, the kid is straight out of high school

11/7/2010 12:09:37 PM

I do not feel like scanning through the past pages, however, TOB is 100% wrong in the decision to not go for the 4th and 1 (or was it 2) with 3 minutes to go, down by 1 point, and no time outs. Poor VERY POOR decision by the coach.

11/7/2010 1:24:09 PM

Punting was the single worst decision I have ever seen made in a football game hands down.

11/7/2010 1:30:07 PM

He had TOs but i agree it was a shitty call

11/7/2010 1:38:25 PM

Right. Go for it. If you don't make it then use your time outs. You were going to have to get a stop either way.

11/7/2010 1:46:57 PM

The punting decision wasn't half as terrible as people make it out to be.

Statistically, it was probably the slightly better call with 3 TOs, 3 minutes left, the way Clemson had been dominating our running game, and the way we'd been able to stop them on D. And if you recall it worked exactly like TOB needed it to...we got the ball back with enough time.

The problem was that the punt only went 4 yards. That was the real problem. You guys should be mad at the punter for completely choking.

[Edited on November 7, 2010 at 1:51 PM. Reason : or was it 2 TOs? Whatever, it wasn't *that* bad. I will admit I was yelling go for it tho ]

11/7/2010 1:50:18 PM

Quote :

"Right. Go for it. If you don't make it then use your time outs. You were going to have to get a stop either way."

Under normal circumstances, you're looking at a 20+ yard difference in field position: kick it and drop them inside the 20, or go fail on fourth and give it to them at the 40. (And if you stop them after the punt, you'll get the ball back near midfield) TOB made the right decision and the defense did their part, it was the punt that fucked things. I would have like to see him go for it, but I'm totally cool with kicking there.

11/7/2010 1:55:21 PM

haynes is our second best RB. we missed him because james washington had 8 carries for 8 yards

Quote :

"BTW, take away the 21 yarder against UCF, the 31 yarder against Cinci, and the 49 yarder against VT. Greene's average drops to 3.78 per."

everyone who has ever made this argument is retarded. so we take away all his best plays and he's still dean haynes?

11/7/2010 2:07:53 PM

Whether we go for it and turnover on downs, punt it 4 yards or to the 20 likely wouldn't have mattered since we only managed to get 11 yards and 1 first down on the final drive. Either way, it's a retarded call to punt when you finally have a little moment and are driving on the opponents side of the field and you assume that your defense will stop them when they had only managed to force one 3 and out prior to that in the 2nd half

[Edited on November 7, 2010 at 2:10 PM. Reason : ]

11/7/2010 2:08:14 PM

I was at the game. I am sorry, but punting was single handedly the stupidest call I've seen him make. The people in the crowd were in disbelief.

You were on the right side of the field. You only had 1 yard to go. We only needed a field goal to win. AND WE HAD STOPPED CLEMSON ALL DAY.

If you dont think your offense can get 1 yard when the game is on the line, you should just get off the fucking field and get back on the bus.

11/7/2010 2:09:46 PM

^^^ If you actually followed the thread...I was pointing that out because people keep bringing up the OMG Greene has 1 yd more per carry than Haynes argument when we try and point out that Greene has had problems pounding the ball up the middle this year.

11/7/2010 2:11:14 PM

Quote :

"AND WE HAD STOPPED CLEMSON ALL DAY. "

Pretty good reason to punt and play for field position

Don't forget that Clemson had stopped us all day, too. 5-15 on 3rd, 0-1 on 4th

Quote :

"If you dont think your offense can get 1 yard when the game is on the line, you should just get off the fucking field and get back on the bus."

Better idea: choose the play that gives you the best odds at reaching field goal range

11/7/2010 2:13:04 PM

he doesnt though

he sucked yesterday because our OLine got dominated by Clemson's DLine. we put in a worse RB and he got 1ypc. haynes wouldve done similar to greene. he's maybe marginally better at running straight up the middle because thats all he ever does but a lot of greene's good runs are pretty straight forward too, except he makes a good cut then bounces around a little once he gets to the second level

[Edited on November 7, 2010 at 2:26 PM. Reason : ]

11/7/2010 2:14:52 PM

re: the 4th down decision

our defense had "stopped" clemson all day with bending and not breaking. not forcing 3 and outs

if we get the first down we're basically in field goal range right there. it was a stupid, indefensible decision. the only time it's even arguable is if you're a team with an awful offense and a dominant defense...and even then, not really

11/7/2010 2:17:04 PM

Quote :

"if we get the first down we're basically in field goal range right there"

Nope

11/7/2010 2:17:49 PM

Quote :

" if we get the first down we're basically in field goal range right there."

ha. not with our kicker.

11/7/2010 2:18:14 PM

It would have been 55+ yards

Not with any kicker

11/7/2010 2:19:17 PM

Quote :

"Pretty good reason to punt and play for field position"

Really? Even if the punter had done a decent job, we probably would have gotten them on a touch back. They'd end up putting us 20 yards back from where we were.

He was counting on way too many things to happen. 1) That the punt would end up worth a shit, 2) that we would end up getting the ball back at all with any time left to work with and 3) that we'd actually get the ball back in decent position.

Seems to me there are a lot more variables in that call, then getting a 1 yard run.

11/7/2010 2:19:55 PM

We stopped them in the first half ...

But the 2nd half was another story ... they had driven the field on us multiple times, making it look easy, in the 2nd half.

STUPID CALL .... STUPID CALL .... STUPID CALL ....

11/7/2010 2:20:23 PM

The Clemson fans were smiling with disbelief when we punted. It was embarassing.

11/7/2010 2:20:49 PM

i was totally literal when I said that

we punted at the clemson 43. so first down is the clemson 42. clemson has a good punter. do you really expect that we wouldve gotten the ball back from them at a better position than their 42 yard line?

11/7/2010 2:21:17 PM

Quote :

"The problem was that the punt only went 4 yards. That was the real problem. You guys should be mad at the punter for completely choking."

as much as I hated the decision, the punter didn't do anything wrong. He can't exactly help that the ball took the worst bounce in the history of mankind. it was a good punt, initially. It's not like he kicked it straight up like the guy did on the 6-yard punt last year.

Quote :

"AND WE HAD STOPPED CLEMSON ALL DAY."

You mean like we did on the previous drive where they moved the ball at will? Or was that on the drive 2 drives before that one, where we also stopped them by allowing a TD? Or like the drive at the end of the 2nd half, where they moved the ball at will?

11/7/2010 2:21:36 PM

yeah, while I'm not on the OMG FIRE TOB AND BIBLE AND ARCHER AND RW bandwagon, that call was fucking awful.

but its over, and we still have a shot. praise the shitty acc.

11/7/2010 2:22:03 PM

Quote :

"He was counting on way too many things to happen. 1) That the punt would end up worth a shit, 2) that we would end up getting the ball back at all with any time left to work with and 3) that we'd actually get the ball back in decent position. "

#1 and #3 are pretty much the same thing and #2 actually happened

Re: #1/#3, Leffler punted the ball four times from similar field position earlier in the game. One touchback and three inside the 20 (two inside the 15)

11/7/2010 2:22:32 PM

The only enjoyment from the loss is seeing the line of douches in section TDL around row JJ getting punished by the clemson fans. Those douches (one of them was in couderoy pants, white button down, and looked like he was 1 month past needing a shave) were an embarassment.

[Edited on November 7, 2010 at 2:26 PM. Reason : .]

11/7/2010 2:22:34 PM

Quote :

"#1 and #3 are pretty much the same thing and #2 actually happened "

Unfortunately, if you bet on a 3 game parlay, losing 1 loses the entire bet. Stupid fucking call.

11/7/2010 2:23:44 PM

http://espn.go.com/ncf/player/profile?playerId=381464

average 43.6 yards per punt this year. we suck at special teams generally. honestly, I think the expected return is a good 20-30 yards of NEGATIVE field position. and that's assuming clemson does not convert on offense

11/7/2010 2:24:50 PM

Quote :

"we punted at the clemson 43. so first down is the clemson 42. clemson has a good punter. do you really expect that we wouldve gotten the ball back from them at a better position than their 42 yard line?"

Maybe you don't understand how playing for field position works

Scenario #1:

We go for it on fourth, fail and give the ball to Clemson. They go three and out, punt and we get the ball inside our own 20

This is what happened thanks to the four yard punt

This is bad

Scenario #2:

We get a good punt on fourth, put Clemson inside the 20, they go three and out, and we get the ball near midfield

This is what TOB was counting on, but again, the punt fucked him over

You punt the ball not because you're going to get the ball closer to field goal range than we already had it, but because you'll be in better position after you force a three and out.

11/7/2010 2:26:14 PM

Quote :

"Unfortunately, if you bet on a 3 game parlay, losing 1 loses the entire bet. Stupid fucking call. "

Again, you can't pin the bad punt on TOB

You want to be angry about something, be angry about that bounce

11/7/2010 2:26:54 PM

scenario 3

you convert 4th and 1. you get a first down. you need 10-20 more yards for FG range. hell, you might even continue your drive and get a TD

11/7/2010 2:27:56 PM

or you just go for it and hope for the best

the worst is your defense is stuck at midfield.

11/7/2010 2:28:15 PM

also you forget scenario 4

special teams clownshoes arrives, one of our players carries the ball into the end zone for a touch back. WOOO 20 yard net!

scenario 5

punt blocked

11/7/2010 2:29:16 PM

yeah, I like 4th and 1 at the 43 with 3 time outs better than praying your defense gets a stop and you get to start at the 50 for the final drive of the game.

11/7/2010 2:30:27 PM