Quote :

"All the more reason that I don't understand why some of the others aren't the ones getting attention."

so the precedent to find fault in the way a person is killed is that it has to be captured on camera in order for it to be worth getting attention? that's a pretty horrible precedent to set.

12/5/2014 1:38:20 PM

I'm talking about the collateral damage video (wikileaks).

I'll say that I think you're more reasonable than most (or at least more thoughtful in your logic), but our disagreements are meaningful.


By the way, what is a "threatening manner?" Because these terms need to be clearly defined. Simply having a gun while black doesn't make you any more of a threat than someone holding a gun while white. Yet it is perceived that way and justified routinely. And certainly having "demon eyes" doesn't make you a lethal threat.

Giving a cop the stank-eye while black shouldn't justify 6 shots. But it did. (Honestly, the Wilson story is so over-the-top, that it leads me to believe that his whole story is filled with shit and worthy of a trial, at least.)

12/5/2014 1:42:33 PM

Not threatening and taken alive: a white man with 4 guns, a bulletproof vest, and a gas mask who just shot 38 people in a theater.

Threatening, dead: a 12 year old black kid with a toy gun

12/5/2014 1:56:37 PM

Quote :

"People protesting a shooting that they say is unjustified. Cops respond with strong arm tactics and military gear. "

I think in Brown's case, this was the critical factor.

They knew they screwed up from the beginning, concealed what actually happened, Wilson claimed that from the moment of the shooting he didn't talk to his boss or anyone in the police department about what happened*, except his union rep and lawyer, they treated the public with disdain and disrespect, showed no sense of empathy, made no effort to communicate with the public or calm people down.

* which is obviously bullshit. What cop shoots someone, and their boss doesn't ask them about what happens? It's really suspicious that the police wavered so much in the beginning about what happened, but were never talking to Wilson, even more suspicious that Wilson didn't write anything down about what happened for more than a week, after he and his union rep and his lawyer had time to make sure it fit the evidence and witness statements (which is incidentally when Wilson went to the hospital-- most likely after his council told him it would look good on paper to do so).

Even very charitably assuming Wilson is telling the truth, the way the entire situation was handled from the governor, down to the mayor, down to the police chief reeks of the prejudice and racism that the black community has been complaining about.

12/5/2014 2:01:13 PM

^^^^ oh come the fuck on, that is not even close to what I said.


If I offered you two lottery tickets, both with the same payout, but one with 100x better odds, which ticket do you want?


(and that's not even factoring in things like the fact that they're also the two who first attacked the people who ended up shooting them).



_______

Re: "Collateral Murder" video:

I have no problem with them opening fire on the group of people walking, some of whom had RPGs and small arms. That's exactly what they should have done. It is unfortunate that a couple of journalists were tagging along with armed fighters. Speaking of journalists, I think it's very reasonable for the Apache pilots to mistake the photo equipment slung over shoulders for weapons, given that they had clearly seen other members of the group carrying weapons.

I'm not sure how I feel about hitting the van that came to pick up the wounded guy. If these were uniformed soldiers, with medics picking them up, that would be very clear-cut. When it's a guerrilla force, and you have every reason to believe that the wounded guy is an armed fighter, and it's not unreasonable to believe that he's simply being picked up by more of his fellow fighters...I'm not sure, I'd have to think more about that. I expect that might be more of an ROE thing than an overarching law-of-war thing.

Quote :

"By the way, what is a "threatening manner?" Because these terms need to be clearly defined. "

Well yeah, that's the million dollar question, and I'm not sure that it can always be clearly defined.

Quote :

"Simply having a gun while black doesn't make you any more of a threat than someone holding a gun while white. Yet it is perceived that way and justified routinely."

Right, of course not. As a very narrow point of contention, I don't think it's perceived that way just due to having a gun while black, but I think that (again, sometimes, with a few cops, which is all that it takes) the "threatening manner" behavior is more easily perceived when it's a black guy with a gun.

Quote :

"Giving a cop the stank-eye while black shouldn't justify 6 shots. But it did."

Giving the stank-eye justifies zero shots. Attacking him justifies as many shots as needed.

Quote :

"Not threatening and taken alive: a white man with 4 guns, a bulletproof vest, and a gas mask who just shot 38 people in a theater. Threatening, dead: a 12 year old black kid with a toy gun"

Let me start by saying that again, I think that race plays a role in some of these cases...

I do wonder, though, that in huge ordeals like the former, if the crazy white guy doesn't get shot more as a result of it being a deliberate, planned response, headed up by more specialized law enforcement. SWAT teams, tactical snipers, etc are probably better trained to respond properly to these situations. Additionally, snipers can afford to be more dispassionate and careful, because they aren't really being threatened themselves. Barney Fife, caught off-guard, up close and personal is a recipe for trouble.

That's where it looks to me like the Tamir Rice cops should have done better. They certainly should have confronted him, but it looks like they put themselves in a position where they wouldn't have the time to reach the right decision if anything remotely questionable happened.

Quote :

"the way the entire situation was handled from the governor, down to the mayor, down to the police chief reeks of the prejudice and racism that the black community has been complaining about."

Agreed.

Specifically, it reeks of more of the deeper cultural problems in law enforcement. I don't really see the racial angle there in the institutional response.

[Edited on December 5, 2014 at 2:19 PM. Reason : ]

12/5/2014 2:19:15 PM

Re: apache...

Just for clarity, we were in agreement with the first round. I was more or less talking about your acceptance of the people in the van.

The "better safe than sorry/dead" argument might be understandable in a war zone (different argument for a different day), but I don't think a cop should be allowed to have this mindset, and should be trained to resist this line of thought.

[Edited on December 5, 2014 at 2:35 PM. Reason : ]

12/5/2014 2:28:35 PM

Quote :

"Specifically, it reeks of more of the deeper cultural problems in law enforcement. I don't really see the racial angle there in the institutional response. "

The racial angle comes from 2 things. The first is that the police have always treated the black community unfairly, you don't have to look hard to find cases in the past of the cops arresting black children for just looking at white women, hosing them down when they were protesting, beating them mercilessly for fairly minor offenses. Issues that started at the end of the civil war engrained themselves, and people still perceive this unfairness today (even if it's not warranted in many situations).

The 2nd thing that feeds the racial angle is that you wouldn't see the police responding this way in a white community. If white people were protesting, even if some of those protesters were looters, i don't see the local government remaining intransigent and tight lipped, i see them attempting more communication and outreach.

12/5/2014 3:16:27 PM

12/5/2014 3:25:35 PM

The ones sitting on the sidewalk should have known they were the ones that were gonna get fucked. If you wanna protest things thats great but once you start doing it in the middle of a public street or sidewalk thats when things end up going bad.

12/5/2014 3:47:00 PM

^^I think you may have unwittingly touched on a meaningful difference.


White kids get crop dusted for protesting. Black kids get full blown military tactics (And sometimes shot in the face).


And for the record, I remember thinking that the authoritarian and fascist elements of policing first showed itself during the occupy protests. With Ferguson, we saw what lengths the police are willing to go in order to assert their power.

12/5/2014 3:55:22 PM

Doss2k's rules for not getting fucked up by the police:

1 - Always show cops your id
2 - Don't sit down on a sidewalk
3 - If you haven't done anything wrong, don't give officers any reason to think you have something to hide.

What else ya got? Always consent to searches of your person, automobile, and home?

12/5/2014 3:55:51 PM

^^^^
http://abcnews.go.com/US/occupy-uc-davis-pepper-spraying-cops-suspended/story?id=14992787

The chancellor was outraged at the cops for that, and that cop got suspended... and he didn't even shoot anyone.

12/5/2014 4:31:55 PM

I dont think that's entirely true.


The students silently shamed her while she walked to her car one night (it's on YouTube). The students tried to get her to resign because of that incident.

[Edited on December 5, 2014 at 4:53 PM. Reason : ]

12/5/2014 4:42:34 PM

^^Yeah because there is a photograph of it.

I'm Krallum and I approved this message.

12/5/2014 5:01:47 PM

Quote :

"The ones sitting on the sidewalk should have known they were the ones that were gonna get fucked. If you wanna protest things thats great but once you start doing it in the middle of a public street or sidewalk thats when things end up going bad."

Quote :

"On September 26, 2012, The University of California announced its decision to offer $30,000 to each of 21 plaintiffs who were pepper-sprayed by John Pike, according to a proposed settlement of a class-action lawsuit.[80][81] The school also offered to pay $250,000 of the students' legal fees and set aside an additional $100,000 for any future claims related to the incident, which would allow each additional claimant up to $20,000 in damages. As part of the settlement offer, the school stated that it had, in relation to the pepper incident, "acted reasonably and with good intentions, without violating the rights."[82]"

Gettin' sprayed and gettin' paid.

12/5/2014 5:32:46 PM

Sure hope they didn't get pepper spray on those bean boots. Mom and dad will be PISSED.

12/5/2014 5:55:35 PM

The video of that incident was cut pretty heavily to support the occupiers.

12/5/2014 6:41:09 PM

Jesus Christ

http://deadspin.com/santa-clara-police-attack-fan-at-pac-12-championship-ga-1667994556

12/7/2014 9:40:04 PM

Guy is clearly fighting back.
Guy clearly touched the cop first.
Video starts midway through the incident without any evidence what started it.

So yeah, I'm siding with the cops.

12/7/2014 9:44:08 PM

Guy is clearly fighting back after he gets batoned in the legs, sure

Whatever started it clearly doesn't matter since the escalation was entirely on the cops

[Edited on December 7, 2014 at 9:58 PM. Reason : .]

12/7/2014 9:57:18 PM

no one is talking about the all out war by police on protesters in berkeley and oakland the last few nights. i saw a video where cops were marching in formation with pipes swinging on anyone who didn't leave. and another where a line of cops opened fire on a crowd with rubber bullets

[Edited on December 7, 2014 at 9:59 PM. Reason : for no reason]

12/7/2014 9:58:46 PM

No, the first time the guy touches the cop is at like 9 seconds in

12/7/2014 10:03:34 PM

You and I have different definitions of "fighting back" then

12/7/2014 10:42:05 PM

I suppose by "making first contact," you mean defensively swatting the cop's hands away as the cop reaches for him

[Edited on December 7, 2014 at 10:48 PM. Reason : cop has baton (and taser, apparently) at the ready]

12/7/2014 10:46:00 PM

The guy was being placed under arrest/escorted out. Clearly the guy filming is biased against cops, so how do you know this wasn't warranted?

12/7/2014 10:53:56 PM

not so much "biased" but more "concerned" if you ask me

how do you know it was warranted? because you take the cop's word and judgment? good thing there's a huge push for body cams now.

12/7/2014 11:15:18 PM

hey dont choke him!

12/7/2014 11:16:38 PM

Surprised cops haven't been targeted in revenge killings

12/7/2014 11:16:56 PM

Based on that video, the cops behavior is totally justified. The guy made initial contact with the cop, was being escorted away and then made contact again with another cop. I have zero issue with the batons and tasers being out.

12/7/2014 11:18:19 PM

What about this shit?

http://youtu.be/CVmyMKtmwU4

Ironic how cops treat people like this, slaps on the wrists and settlements happen out of court, so the people pay themselves for being mistreated.

12/7/2014 11:21:22 PM

Quote :

"(and that's not even factoring in things like the fact that they're also the two who first attacked the people who ended up shooting them)."

Ummm... In the Trayvon Martin situation, we don't know who "attacked". We have Zimmerman's story, which doesn't make much sense (Martin runs away, and then hides and attacks Zimmerman out of nowhere), and given that Zimmerman already lied in front of the court at his bail hearing, I'm not inclined to believe much of his story. Likewise, if you only look at the last ten seconds, as JHC has already said, then you miss vital context that might explain why Martin would have responded with violence. I don't know about you, but if I'm walking down the street and somebody is following me in a car, then gets out of his car and follows me on foot (possibly running after me), then I'm going to be inclined to respond with force if and when that person catches up to me. And, frankly, I don't think that person should be allowed to kill me with impunity, even if I am kicking his ass.

12/7/2014 11:29:27 PM

Quote :

"Jesus Christ http://deadspin.com/santa-clara-police-attack-fan-at-pac-12-championship-ga-1667994556"

lol the video (which starts in the middle of the incident) clearly shows the guy pushing the cop and then resisting. the cops didn't even use excessive force... the douchebag filming of course was trying to make it sound like the cops were being excessive (to get more youtube hits?)

12/7/2014 11:29:39 PM

bahahahaa you can not be too intelligent to be a cop.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/court-oks-barring-high-iqs-cops/story?id=95836

12/8/2014 2:35:02 AM

http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/08/justice/protests-grand-jury-chokehold/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

Quote :

"Protesters flood California highway, throw rocks, bottles at officers, police say"

I really hope this new found hatred for violent protests carries over to the next hockey riot celebration.

12/8/2014 10:40:20 AM

12/8/2014 10:43:05 AM

All of this is awesome and I hope it keeps happening. One of my affluent white friends got arrested in Durham this weekend. Thanks palz

I'm Krallum and I approved this message.

12/8/2014 10:44:33 AM

Quote :

""I couldn't believe they tackled her and put her in handcuffs and in the back of the same police car that was on the grass that the officer got out of and shot her brother so my daughter is sitting there looking at her brother on the ground," Rice said this morning. The mother of four has already filed a wrongful death lawsuit over Tamir's death but she said this morning that she wants "the police [to] be accountable for what they did to my son." "I'm looking for a conviction for both of the officers," she said."

https://gma.yahoo.com/mother-cleveland-boy-shot-police-says-shes-looking-130014174--abc-news-topstories.html

[Edited on December 8, 2014 at 10:54 AM. Reason : .]

12/8/2014 10:53:00 AM

Only watched about half of that with no sound, but I agree there was quite a bit of stuff in there that look excessive and unneeded. When dealing with a crowd like that you cant just start hitting the people in the front just because they cant move back. There were a few people who appeared to make aggressive moves towards the police and I dont really feel bad for them, but definitely a lot of people who were either pushed from behind or simply couldnt back up anymore who were hit.

I also think we are at a point now where people are intentioally trying to piss off the police simply to capture something on camera and I am not really sure the solution to that. Yes, the cops should be trained on the correct way to handle these situations, but I do at least understand the frustration for law enforcement when people are trying to bait them into situations now to capture something on camera.

12/8/2014 10:55:53 AM

^^^ "The suburbs dream of violence. Asleep in their drowsy villas, sheltered by benevolent shopping malls, they wait patiently for the nightmares that will wake them into a more passionate world." - JG Ballard



[Edited on December 8, 2014 at 11:00 AM. Reason : .]

12/8/2014 11:00:10 AM

I like how you can see that one cop smirking as he's hitting people with his baton

He's all like...FINALLY! THIS IS WHAT I SIGNED UP FOR!

12/8/2014 11:00:50 AM

From a homie on the facebooks:

Quote :

"police have only ever been in existence to govern poor people(usually those of color) and keep power in the hands of the rich. so yes. all police are the problem. its part of their job. no matter how good their intentions when they joined. their job is to be oppressive. the road to hell is paved with good intentions."

I'm Krallum and I approved this message.

12/8/2014 11:04:40 AM

http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2014/12/06/activists-say-chicago-police-used-stingray-eavesdropping-technology-during-protests/

12/8/2014 11:18:06 AM

^So its literally 1984 right now?

I'm Krallum and I approved this message.

12/8/2014 11:34:05 AM

Quote :

"police have only ever been in existence to govern poor people(usually those of color) and keep power in the hands of the rich. so yes. all police are the problem. its part of their job. no matter how good their intentions when they joined. their job is to be oppressive. the road to hell is paved with good intentions."

12/8/2014 12:37:45 PM

You liked that one? I've got tons more

I'm Krallum and I approved this message.

12/8/2014 1:28:56 PM

bttt

I'm Krallum and I approved this message.

12/11/2014 10:57:09 AM

12/11/2014 1:07:48 PM

^

Quote :

"Late Wednesday, some family members set fire to furniture in the front yard of 621 Magnolia St. Police and fire crews returned to the home and extinguished the fire. Family members said Thursday they burned the items because they believe police may have bugged them. Later in the night, however, family members set fire to a wooded area across the street from Faison's home. Police and fire crews returned, and the crowd dispersed. "People are angry, very angry," Womack said."

Quote :

""I got one black male shot. He's got a gun in his hand still," an officer told dispatchers, according to a recording of police communications in the incident that was released Thursday. Faison, 26, was wanted on charges of attempted murder, robbery with a dangerous weapon and assault with a deadly weapon inflicting serious injury in a Dec. 5 shooting in Sanford, according to the SBI, which is investigating Faison's shooting."

Yea, definitely a conspiracy on this one to shoot this poor innocent black man.

12/11/2014 9:55:18 PM

they are just trying to ruin his character, "character assassination", by mentioning his unrelated past convictions

12/11/2014 10:48:27 PM

i know your being sarcastic, but those were not past convictions, they were outstanding charges they were serving a warrant on....so its totally relevant in this case

12/12/2014 4:59:41 AM