^^yep.... or

"What can you dumb bastards do to make it any better"

or

"Whom do you suggest will turn this program around"

or my fav title for all you bastards

"Shut the fuck up, and give the man a chance"

Quote :

"oh man, you are so clever."

you apparently are not, since we lost one game this season and you already are ready to throw the man under the bus....


[Edited on December 7, 2008 at 1:46 PM. Reason : ]

12/7/2008 1:44:54 PM

I'm just saying...

12/7/2008 1:45:26 PM

also, if you all got your will and sid was let go... then there goes our top 15 recruiting class...

Bye Bye
Howell, Wood, Harrow, Brown

No Shot at:
Favors, Cousins, Wall

The guys that can get us turned around would all be ran out of town just like the coach. See Herbs recruits.

[Edited on December 7, 2008 at 1:49 PM. Reason : ]

12/7/2008 1:48:54 PM

Quote :

"many of whom really don't know what they're talking about but think they do, make fools of themselves on the internet"

Bullshit. You are in fucking denial. What player has been developed by Lowe? Not one fucking player. If anything players are getting worse.

Sendek is a better coach than Lowe. Year three, I can say this. He took that piece of shit Arizona State team and turned it into a top 20 program in the nation. Lowe turned our program into a piece of shit. It sucks, and I don't like it, but I'm not in denial about it. Our basketball coach is fucking terrible.

12/7/2008 1:50:35 PM

oh noes...someone with an opinion in contrast to mine. they must be stupid.

12/7/2008 1:50:40 PM

Quote :

"He took that piece of shit Arizona State team and turned it into a top 20 program in the nation."

James Harden has turned that program around

12/7/2008 1:52:29 PM

^^^ that is kind of harsh. Sendek has had far more experience at this level and already turned one god awful shitty program in to a competitor in a major conference (what program am I talking about?)... you would expect him to be able to do that quicker than Lowe.

Granted, Lowe didn't inherit a terrible program or terrible talent but he didn't have a PG. My absolute biggest criticism to this point was his terrible evaluation of Javi over Chris Warren (who would have accepted an offer on the spot). That decision alone set us back 2 years IMO...

[Edited on December 7, 2008 at 1:53 PM. Reason : ^ sendek recruited him, no?]

12/7/2008 1:53:34 PM

Quote :

" James Harden has turned that program around"

Just like JJ Hickson right?

12/7/2008 1:54:16 PM

I went to the game yesterday and was not impressed with either team. Our offense is no better than when Herb was coaching. We put up 67 against a Southern Conference team, with their best defender ejected from the game in the 1st half, and with a ton of State fans in attendance. Davidson has one solid player and several other guys whose job is to grab rebounds when he misses.

12/7/2008 1:55:00 PM

Quote :

"his terrible evaluation of Javi over Chris Warren (who would have accepted an offer on the spot). That decision alone set us back 2 years IMO..."

i definitely agree with this... huge mistake... also passing on jai lucas and mcmillan because they were "too small"

12/7/2008 1:58:33 PM

Wow... I didn't look his stats up this year until now.

Chris Warren #12 G Ole Miss
20.4ppg
4 apg
2.4 spg
1.6 a/to
87.2 FT%

damn... he is a stud.

[Edited on December 7, 2008 at 2:01 PM. Reason : and he's only 5'10]

12/7/2008 2:01:22 PM

Quote :

"Bullshit. You are in fucking denial. What player has been developed by Lowe? Not one fucking player. If anything players are getting worse."

By your liberal use of cuss words, i take it that you are upset and might not be thinking rationally. Look, I'm not pleased with the loss, and I haven't been pleased with the development of the team since Sidney's been here. But has been stated many times, this was our first real game, and it was against the best shooter/player in the nation. And we just don't much of a back court, particularly at the point. But we've been playing more as a team this year than we ever did last year.

I just think its stupid to get all in a huff because we lost to Davidson. Let's wait to see how the team progresses over the season, and how well we compete once we get some ACC-worthy PG play/players.


[Edited on December 7, 2008 at 2:12 PM. Reason : ]

12/7/2008 2:06:26 PM

^ right we are back to two years ago. No more JJ Hickson. We sucked 2 years ago also, 5 ACC wins that year?

Before this talk about Sendek poorly evaluating recruits, we should take a look at Lowe evaluating the talent on our current team.

Playing time From the Davidson game:

Tracy Smith: ONLY 5 minutes
Trevor Ferguson: 19 minutes???
Dennis Fucking Horner: 12 minutes?!?!?

[Edited on December 7, 2008 at 2:10 PM. Reason : x]

12/7/2008 2:09:13 PM

^I got no problem with Ferg's minutes. I do, however, don't understand the Smith/Horner situation. There's got to be some reason that Smith only got 5 minutes. As much as I want to like him, Horner has sucked.

12/7/2008 2:11:12 PM

I sure as fuck hope that Mays starts taking over Ferg's play time.

12/7/2008 2:13:54 PM

Quote :

"also passing on jai lucas and mcmillan because they were "too small""

i'm pretty sure that's not how it happened.

12/7/2008 2:45:32 PM

48 pages already?

12/7/2008 2:50:35 PM

^ not all of us are fortunate enough to have an NBA team roster at the college level.

12/7/2008 2:57:11 PM

Nor has anyone else since like UNLV in 1990.

[Edited on December 7, 2008 at 3:02 PM. Reason : Maybe the Fab 5]

12/7/2008 3:00:45 PM

i will pay whatever is left of dennis horner's and trevor ferguson's scholarships to have them cut from the team and expelled from school

12/7/2008 3:08:16 PM

Tracy Smith: ONLY 5 minutes
Trevor Ferguson: 19 minutes???
Dennis Fucking Horner: 12 minutes?!?!?

this is why we lost

12/7/2008 3:12:46 PM

^^ i'm sure you will.

[Edited on December 7, 2008 at 3:13 PM. Reason : ^ yeah, my only complaint about lowe is that tracy smith doesn't get enough minutes.]

12/7/2008 3:13:11 PM

Smith got so little PT because he was getting out rebounded BADLY. Ferguson is our best 3pt shooter (especially with Fells out) and Horner I don't understand but then again I am not paid $$ to coach so I will defer to people who are.

12/7/2008 3:20:37 PM

if ferg is our best 3 point shooter, we are in big fucking trouble

12/7/2008 3:23:13 PM

actually after yesterday he is 2nd behind fells who was hurt (mays is 100% but it is only on 2 shots)

12/7/2008 3:31:00 PM

As a self-avowed Herb-Hater, I'm gonna give Lowe until at least the end of this season before I make any decisions, one way or another. It has been only 2 years, for crying out loud. I haven't been happy with Lowe, but then I also accept that he didn't have a freakin PG when he started. Not a fair way to assess anyone.

Plus, let's not forget that Davidson, no matter how much we want to think otherwise, is a top-25 team. They beat some good teams last year, so it shouldn't come as a shock that they will beat some mediocre teams this year.

12/7/2008 6:11:44 PM

you gotta give him next season, too.

see what he can do w/ lorenzo brown. if it's still this bad, i don't know.

12/7/2008 6:16:56 PM

i will proly do that. I'm just sayin that I feel obligated to give him at least 3 years,.

12/7/2008 6:29:15 PM

Degand and Fells are hurt. These players both have the ability to attack the basket. Tracy Smith is also hurt. Some of you need to chill and let the season play out before going off the deep end over one game.

12/7/2008 6:36:48 PM

I think that I am happier now at this point in the season, more than I was last season. I say just relax and see how the season goes.

12/7/2008 6:54:05 PM

Well I wasn't a big Lowe fan from the day we hired him.......but:

1) Ferguson should be starting over CJ Williams, why are you complaining about him playing?

2) We got out rebounded by a freaking high school team, even when we got stops and they missed, Lovedale, etc. were right there to tip it in.

3) We lost because Lowe kept the scrubs in too much of the game, Simon Harris guarding Curry? Really Sidney?

12/7/2008 7:17:00 PM

Quote :

"I sure as fuck hope that Mays starts taking over Ferg's play time."

What? They play different positions.

12/7/2008 7:23:47 PM

^^A ranked high school team fwiw.

12/7/2008 10:42:07 PM

Props to aaronburro for his last post. I think he's dead on here...

Quote :

"As a self-avowed Herb-Hater,"

Never hated him, but I did think he wasn't the right fit...

Quote :

" I'm gonna give Lowe until at least the end of this season before I make any decisions, one way or another. It has been only 2 years, for crying out loud. "

Point.

Quote :

"I haven't been happy with Lowe, but then I also accept that he didn't have a freakin PG when he started. Not a fair way to assess anyone."

Point.

I understand people being pissed that he hasn't recruited a decent PG yet, but try to remember that he's still getting the hang of the college bball world. If he went 3-4 years without a decent PG recruit, then I'd start to wonder. As it stands however we have Brown in '09 and Harrow in '10, both of which look like solid recruits. Not to mention that Mays and/or Gonzalez could still prove to be serviceable if not solid PG options in the near future.

Quote :

"Plus, let's not forget that Davidson, no matter how much we want to think otherwise, is a top-25 team. They beat some good teams last year, so it shouldn't come as a shock that they will beat some mediocre teams this year."

Point. Curry was absolutely nuts on Saturday. Try to remember that he made a LOT of teams far better than us look really bad last year.

Then there's:

Quote :

"you gotta give him next season, too. see what he can do w/ lorenzo brown. if it's still this bad, i don't know."

Lowe has Top 20 class coming in next year with the possibility of adding a top 5 calibur player to it. The only way State should even consider firing Lowe is if we major red flags as the season progresses, some of which we unfortunately saw last year, like:

1) A lack of dicipline and focus on the floor
2) An atrocious record in the ACC (5 wins or less)
3) Failing to make ANY post-season tournament
4) Poor team chemistry and rumors of internal issues with the team

Other red flags that would deeply concern me would be:

1) Poor media relations (i.e. making stupid comments publicly like Chuck's "non-qualifiers" rant)
2) Being picked to finish last in the ACC next year.


Again, I reitterate, yes there are plenty of valid reasons to criticize Lowe and his job performance thusfar. My point remains however that Lowe should get this year and the next to prove himself, b/c by then we'll be able to make a far better assessment of his potential as a coach.

12/7/2008 11:37:54 PM

^ very well put

12/7/2008 11:46:46 PM

Quote :

"Being picked to finish last in the ACC next year."

that's not even close to an issue. finishing last is a big deal, but preseason media predictions really have nothing to do w/ anything.

12/7/2008 11:59:00 PM

Quote :

"Props to aaronburro for his last post. I think he's dead on here..."

ehe, I prolly just surprised about $texas number of users here with those posts

12/8/2008 12:18:40 AM

I don't really like the fact that this thread exists, it's shit like this that lost us a good coach who got us to 4 straight NCAA tournaments. I know you all hate Herb, but its true. I personally prefer general media respect and overall success to beating UNC once (though that was a fucking awesome win). Regardless, the discussion here is really good. Give him a couple more seasons though. I think Lowe is the kinda guy who isn't gonna win until he really has 4 years to exercise his recruiting prowess.

12/8/2008 1:29:23 AM

^FIVE straight tournaments.....

Quote :

"I think Lowe is the kinda guy who isn't gonna win until he really has 4 years to exercise his recruiting prowess. "

12/8/2008 1:33:00 AM

we just need a good point guard. i feel like this thread should have been closed after every time someone said it earlier.

12/8/2008 5:59:58 AM

You are just assuming that we would be better if we had a better PG. But there isn't any evidence to support it. People ran off Herb, and the program has tanked under Lowe. Maybe he will turn it around, but I don't see this season being much better than last season. Maybe we won't finish last in the ACC this year, but that is a big maybe.

We got what we deserved with Lowe. We ran off a well respected coach who had greatly improved the program. And in doing so we scared off any half way decent/proven coach that had any interest. So we got stuck with Lowe.

12/8/2008 6:22:04 AM

That's yellow journalism. You can't change the facts afterward to make your favorite guy look good.

Herb got run out because his teams were not improving and making the same old mistakes they always have.
Fowler whiffed on several high-profile coaches. It's also not very clear that he has an eye for or went after any diamonds in the rough (every great NCSU coach was hired as an up-and-comer, as most great coaches are).

There is absolutely no basis for saying that good coaches won't come here other than your own weak emotional pettiness.

[Edited on December 8, 2008 at 8:00 AM. Reason : .]

12/8/2008 7:48:59 AM

Quote :

"You are just assuming that we would be better if we had a better PG. But there isn't any evidence to support it."

well if you look at the last 2 seasons it seems reasonable enough. before atsur got hurt 2 years ago we played pretty well. then when he was injured we didn't have anyone who was competent enough to run the offense, and we sucked ass in the process. then atsur came back and we did a pretty good job the rest of the season and made a hell of a run in the ACC tournament. i'm not real impressed by degand, but we started out the season last year fairly well. after he went down we didn't have any other good options between javi and marques johnson. it's hard to create talent where there is none. we just have to wait and see who lowe can recruit at point. hopefully we'll get wall.

[Edited on December 8, 2008 at 8:35 AM. Reason : .]

12/8/2008 8:35:47 AM

Quote :

"also passing on jai lucas and mcmillan because they were "too small""

NCSU was never in it with McMillan...Herb was but not NCSU

12/8/2008 8:55:43 AM

crossposting from the davidson thread:

just look at the '05/'06 season if you're missing herb sendek. he was in his 10th season starting three seniors, a junior and a sophomore who was about to be a lottery pick. all his guys, all played his system, and all played it well. what's he do w/ that team? he loses to iowa, gets blown at at home by seton hall and a unc team chock full of freshmen, loses twice in a row to wake forest, zero wins in the acc tournament and one win in the ncaa tournament. and that's herb in a nutshell.

12/8/2008 9:11:59 AM

^I still believe that team tanked late in the season because they knew Herb was leaving. You could tell in the team's talk and play and Herb's talk that something was up.

12/8/2008 12:22:11 PM

four out of five starters on that team were also leaving.

12/8/2008 12:48:01 PM

Quote :

"You are just assuming that we would be better if we had a better PG. But there isn't any evidence to support it. People ran off Herb, and the program has tanked under Lowe. Maybe he will turn it around, but I don't see this season being much better than last season. Maybe we won't finish last in the ACC this year, but that is a big maybe. We got what we deserved with Lowe. We ran off a well respected coach who had greatly improved the program. And in doing so we scared off any half way decent/proven coach that had any interest. So we got stuck with Lowe."

except maybe how we sucked his first year while atsur was out, then went on a pretty amazing run when he returned?

I will always be glad herb is gone, regardless of what happens with lowe....as of now, they have the same # of championships (acc reg season, tourney, ncaa tourney) except lowe has had about 1/5 of the time to get any.

12/8/2008 1:03:15 PM

Quote :

"I don't really like the fact that this thread exists"

Welcome to Wolfpack athletics

FTR, this isn't something even remotely unique to NC State. When you have a huge, passionate fanbase, you're going to have a comparatively larger "lunatic fringe" that can potentially make the whole group look bad. Just ask the Florida fans that created and supported http://www.FireRonZook.com before Zook even coached a freakin' game

Quote :

"You are just assuming that we would be better if we had a better PG. But there isn't any evidence to support it."

There also isn't any evidence to refute it. Lowe hasn't had a decent PG yet to run his offense. The PG debate is all pure speculation at this point.

Quote :

"We ran off a well respected coach who had greatly improved the program. "

Herb did in fact greatly improve the program. That's something which I and every true Wolfpack fan should thank him for. Herb pulled State out of the gutter and made the basketball program reputable again.

Quote :

"And in doing so we scared off any half way decent/proven coach that had any interest. "

You can debate the positives and negatives of State's rabid fanbase until the cows come home (no pun intended), but the bottom line is that there's one very important reason why other coaches didn't leap at the chance to coach the Wolfpack - The presence of TWO Top 10 programs within a 45 minute drive of campus. Anyone who wants to downplay that aspect should ask Mike Leach at Texas Tech what it's like to try to win with Texas and Oklahoma breathing down your neck. Hell, Texas Tech is 11-1, ranked in the Top 10, and they not only didn't play for their conference championship... they also won't even be in a BCS bowl. That's just freakin' wrong.

Quote :

"So we got stuck with Lowe."

Entirely too pessimistic IMO. Try to remember that everyone was singing Lowe's praises after Year #1 when he stitched together a very impressive post-season run with one of the thinnest rosters in the ACC. He's coached at the NBA level and has shown an ability to successfully recruit NBA calibur players. What have Sendek's recruits done in the NBA? Not much. JJ Hickson could outshine them all by himself within the next couple of years.

Quote :

"just look at the '05/'06 season if you're missing herb sendek. he was in his 10th season starting three seniors, a junior and a sophomore who was about to be a lottery pick (point). all his guys, all played his system, and all played it well (point). what's he do w/ that team? he loses to iowa (point), gets blown at at home by seton hall (point) and a unc team chock full of freshmen (point), loses twice in a row to wake forest (point), zero wins in the acc tournament (point) and one win in the ncaa tournament (point). and that's herb in a nutshell."

ballgame

12/8/2008 1:12:49 PM

This is how I evaluate a head coach (and in this order) at the college level and I will give Sidney a grade on each. Just my opinion, and this is with everything so far in his tenure.

1. Recruiting: Some horrible coaches have made final fours (see John Brady - LSU) with good talent. I don't care how great of a coach you are, you can't win (esp. with our neighboring schools) if you don't have at least closely comparable players.

Grade: B- Has recruited front court talent very well so far but has not gotten a guard since he has been here that is good. If we got Wall, this would change. But as of now he has not recruited one decent guard.

2. Defensive coaching: Teams that play great defense on a consistent basis (see UCLA and Duke) win consistently. It is that simple. I would much rather have a team that brings it on D every night and is inconsistent offensively than vice versa.

Grade: D- or F This is probably my biggest complaint with Sid. We are absolutely horrendous defensively. No one gets into a stance. Our help side D is atrocious. Our on ball D is initially sometimes good (early in the shot clock) but after they make a few passes our on ball D usually falls apart as well. We don't rebound all that well and never get any loose balls (I think Davidson got all of them). In short, WE DON"T PLAY HARD. When was the last time someone from our team dove on the floor for a ball? Defense is about wanting to and great teaching from a staff and we don't have that.

3. Motivation: Does the team play hard every game? Reflection of how they are coached daily.

Grade: C- We, as I said earlier, don't ever play hard, but more often than not we give average effort. Average grade.

4. Offensive coaching: Is there continuity between the five? Is there an established system (inside out or outside in - either can work IMO).

Grade: B- to C+ We do some good things offensively, like getting our bigs consistently involved but I still don't know what our "system" is. We don't move enough to call it motion. We do some good things Sidney got from the NBA, but overall I would say our offense is average.

5. Game management

Grade: C+ Did a good job I thought in his first year with this but not since. Maybe that is partly do to personnel (need good guards to manage a game and haven't had one since Atsur) but it is still the coach's responsibility to use time outs correctly and put the team in a position to win.

Overall I would give Sid a below average grade and after two full years and part of this year I think it is OK to start to make assumptions about how his teams will look and our style under him.

12/8/2008 2:46:24 PM