Ask and ye shall receive
http://instagram.com/p/umhtwXmiek/

10/26/2014 11:11:32 AM

http://mweb.cbssports.com/ncaaf/writer/jon-solomon/24765822/uncs-unprecedented-academic-fraud-case-will-test-ncaa?v=1&vc=2

Quote :

""When you bring your own academic counselor from Kansas and that counselor continued the sham for eligibility purposes, it is not believable that Roy Williams didn't know about it," Gurney said. "He asked the athletic director about the course loads.""

Not skating this one. No one is buying the "I did not know" argument.

also.

Quote :

""I hope Emmert is fair and lets it run its course because there are mitigating factors on North Carolina's part," Gurney said. "There's an opportunity for Emmert to reestablish control over a renegade membership. Will he take that opportunity? I don't know. He's been a very weak NCAA president.""

Straight up calling NCAA president out. I don't think Gurney have any sympathy for UNC and is taunting the NCAA for the death penalty. Lol.

[Edited on October 26, 2014 at 11:49 AM. Reason : *]

[Edited on October 26, 2014 at 11:57 AM. Reason : Death]

10/26/2014 11:48:47 AM

UNC should've been hit with LOIC for all the agent shit with FB. They got Failure to Monitor. If they don't get absolutely shit on by the NCAA and get hit with LOIC then there's absolutely no reason for other schools to do the same thing.

10/26/2014 12:39:07 PM

Wonder if this 2pac1331 guy is legit

http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=178&f=2515&t=13285344&p=9

10/26/2014 5:35:29 PM

what that dude sounds fucking crazy

10/26/2014 5:38:27 PM

I'm skeptical of him. But who knows.

Wouldn't this be the type of thing to take to Dan Kane? Call him up, somehow prove that he is who he says he is. And then be "deep throat" for this investigation. Didn't read far enough down in the thread...he's already doing that.

Although, I've thought many times throughout this investigation that there's gotta be some disgruntled former UNC employee that's willing to speak more openly about this stuff.

[Edited on October 26, 2014 at 6:00 PM. Reason : f]

10/26/2014 5:58:42 PM

^I also thought he sounded fucking nuts, but Im not going to question it there...will probably be labeled a Tarhole. He also referred to uncch as the "Blue Devils" in more than one post, which is somewhat odd...

10/26/2014 6:09:54 PM

I think he was just going with the hellish theme

earlier, he had referred to Williams as "Roy-elzebub" and said "My vindication only strengthens with each lie that devil speaks" and "Roy put me through absolute hell as a student"

[Edited on October 26, 2014 at 6:16 PM. Reason : m]

10/26/2014 6:14:50 PM

thegoldenrul thinks that guy needs to take it down a notch

10/26/2014 6:22:19 PM

He also said he wanted front row tickets to the State/UNC game in Raleigh so he could "look the devil in his eye" hahaha

10/26/2014 6:22:59 PM

it wouldn't be terribly hard to figure out who this dude is

said he's an '07 UNC grad, worked for Roy for a few years, and sat behind the UNC bench every game from 04-06

10/26/2014 6:25:55 PM

^Public records request on internal emails related to this guys "disciplinary actions' or 'mediations' would probably be available

10/26/2014 6:26:50 PM

From the CBS aritcle above

Quote :

"North Carolina will likely argue there's a mitigating factor: The university went to great effort and expense to conduct a public investigation. North Carolina could argue the NCAA would not have found out about the scope of the fraud if not for the university-funded Wainstein investigation."

Bullshit. They went to "great effort" after their first attempt at a whitewash in the Martin report got slammed, and after their previous "internal investigations" continued failing to find the simple shit that posters at PackPride found with little effort. I'm completely willing to bet that UNC has even more skeletons in the closet, and whatever they've released here is an attempt to give a little bit so that no one else comes in and digs any further. Because every single time someone has looked, they've found something new.

10/26/2014 10:21:42 PM

Quote :

"North Carolina could argue the NCAA would not have found out about the scope of the fraud if not for the university-funded Wainstein investigation."

Lol. This would be such a pathetic thing to argue. But, lawyers, so. The truth is the crazies on PackPride were the ones who discovered damn near everything from the original source materials. Dan Kane took a lot of it and put it into proper grammar.

[Edited on October 26, 2014 at 10:41 PM. Reason : .]

10/26/2014 10:40:52 PM

And then UNC's attacks on the media and obfuscation pissed off enough people in the media to make them actually go after UNC.

10/26/2014 10:46:00 PM

Yeah this is, what, the 4th investigation or something of this stuff? After the first few attempts were clearly "nothing to see here" this one finally came through with real results. And there's still plenty of questions remaining.

10/27/2014 8:45:09 AM

From Saturday (and on that PP link)

http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/10/25/4264160_crowder-did-it-leaves-a-lot-unexplained.html

10/27/2014 9:13:07 AM

Quote :

"Subject: [FORMAL NOTICE] Message from the Student Body President Andrew H. Powell Fellow Students and the Campus Community, On Wednesday, the Wainstein Report, a 136-page document describing the full story behind nearly 20 years of “paper classes” was released by independent investigator Kenneth Wainstein. The report was impressively thorough and quite blunt. The full report and an executive summary can be found at carolinacommitment.unc.edu. We encourage everyone to read it, digest the information and come to their own opinions. The report showed there were over 3,000 instances of students enrolling in paper classes. These were fraudulent courses with no direct faculty involvement and grading practices completely unrelated to the quality of student work. This practice was and is absolutely unacceptable. Some in the media have been quick to use the 3,000+ number as an indictment of us as a student body. But I believe the context is also important: over the same period there were more than three million class enrollments at UNC. 9,000 illegitimate credit hours out of over 9,000,000 total hours do not define our student body or our University. The paper class scheme started before some of us were even born and ended before many of us enrolled as students. Many reforms have already been implemented, though there is still work to be done and more changes on the way. No one should ever have any reason to question the legitimacy of the education received by any student – athlete or non-athlete – at Carolina. But one thing is clear: the events of the past years and the accompanying public fallout have profoundly influenced the student experience at UNC. We have each been affected in different ways; some of us are angry, some of us are confused and some of us are hurt. As a student body we must engage, unite and, in due time, move forward as a stronger Carolina. I want to hear your thoughts, your ideas, and your criticisms about everything that has happened. Drop by Tuesday October 28, between 12 and 2 pm outside the Daily Grind by the Pit, or email sbp@unc.edu to talk or submit a question. In addition, on Thursday, October 30 at 6 pm in Carroll Hall, room 111 we will hold a forum to have these important conversations. A panel of students from many sectors of campus life will discuss the questions you raise and submit before and during the event. Please join us, engage with the UNC community and help Carolina move forward. Sincerely, Andrew Powell Student Body President"

10/27/2014 9:24:49 AM

Nobody gives a fuck what the current student body has to say or thinks unless they can force the NCAA to drop dem banners.

Also is every class at UNC 3 hour credit? I would think those high level AFAM courses would be 4 hour, did they not also have paper labs? lol

10/27/2014 9:33:11 AM

"form your own opinion... but here's what you should think according to our PR firm's 9-point strategy in deflection and denial"

[Edited on October 27, 2014 at 9:36 AM. Reason : ]

10/27/2014 9:34:45 AM

like i said in the IC thread. there is clearly a PR influence on everything UNC is releasing right now. one would think that after 4 years and massive amounts of disgrace, the flagship university would just be fucking real for once.

obfuscating through total class hours, athletes per sport per year, and "they could have passed other legit classes maybe"

that's a triple play right there

10/27/2014 9:53:48 AM

Al Sharpton is not impressed by the Student Body President.

10/27/2014 9:57:59 AM

BTW, how do we Lowell Bergman on this shit??

10/27/2014 10:35:51 AM

Yesterday: It's okay. It wasn't just athletes enrolled in those classes. Our sports teams shouldn't be punished.

Today: It's okay. It was just athletes enrolled in those classes. Our sports teams shouldn't be punished.

10/27/2014 10:37:16 AM

This is a pretty down-to-earth point of view on the scandal from a former UNC-CH employee over at HFBoards, he's the unquoted text after this point:

Quote :

"It was mentioned in the football forum, but, imagine if they give unc the death penalty"

I'm struggling to think of why this wouldn't deserve the death penalty and then some.

This isn't just coaches messing around under the table with a few rogue boosters. This is large-scale institutional fraud.

Quote :

"What am I missing? Is it just that it can't be tied directly to the coaching staffs and Athletic Department?"

It absolutely can. The coaches knew about the system and for the most part used it to their advantage. Butch Davis, Jim Bunting and Matt Doherty are identified by name for having exploited the system rather than change it, and there's a very strong indication that it was all developed under Dean Smith.

If the Dean Smith story turns out to have substance, that's going to be as big as Joe Paterno's fall from grace at Penn State. The freakin' stadium is named after the guy.

Quote :

"Hang on. It's been reported that after a year or so, Roy recognized what was going on and instructed Walden (?) to pull his guys out of those classes. At least, that is what I heard on the radio yesterday."

Williams may have done enough to get himself out from under the hammer. That said, he also didn't do anything to expose the scandal as he was obligated to do as head of his program.

That's just one guy, though. The football staff and former basketball staff seem to have gone along with it willingly.

Yeah I was working at UNC when this originally broke and there were plenty of alums who were furious. I can't imagine how much worse it just got.

Say what we will about the coaches and staff, but Carolina alumni legitimately feel tarnished by this. It's not a "mad because they got caught" kind of anger.

Quote :

"I guess I'm one of the people who just think of it as cost of doing business. I mean, the SEC wouldn't have teams if academic standards were strictly enforced. It's too bad...but I get it."

I can't see any justification for that point of view TBH. We're talking about organized fraud on a huge scale over a long period at a public institution. The people who perpetuated it are employees of the state. There's no excuse for it.

Ultimately this is going to cause a net loss of prestige and money for the institution, so it's clearly not an acceptable "cost of business".

Quote :

"I really doubt any of this results in a net loss of money."

Trust me, they lost millions in donations on this scandal BEFORE the report came out.

This scandal has also already cost them an otherwise pretty good Chancellor, a football coach, several faculty and staff members, numerous players, two vacated football seasons, a year of postseason eligibility, dozens of scholarships, and any number of losses on the field as a result of all that. Add legal fees that are surely now in the millions, PR expenditures that are probably in the six figures, and un-quantifiable damage to the university's reputation that will extend to their admissions results and things like the amount of time faculty and staff are now spending having to address these issues.

That was all BEFORE the report came out. There will be more NCAA sanctions. There will be more legal fees, more PR expenses, more distractions. There will be serious harm to fundraising. The number of people who distance themselves from the University, including alumni, community leaders and prospective students, can only go up. Ticket sales and TV ratings can only go down.

It's hard to imagine the total impact being lower than tens-of-millions. Quite possibly more when you factor in the impact this will likely have on the profitability of NCAA sports as a whole, as it pushes college sports that much closer to professionalism.

How much money could they possibly have made from fudging grades? It's not like the football team was high-profile anyway. It's not like the basketball team wouldn't have been elite. Whatever advantage it gave them, it's going to be massively outweighed by the losses... already has been, by a long shot.

Quote :

"Which makes it all the more likely that this wasn't some institution-wide conspiracy. It doesn't make sense, as you detailed so well above. At least, it wasn't MEANT to be."

Depends what you mean by "institution-wide".

Was the faculty of the music department in on it? Probably not. Did the lady who swipes cards at the cafeteria have a hand in the cover-up? Maybe, but I doubt it.

If by "institution-wide" you mean multiple departments, dozens of employees, faculty including a center director, staff, coaches, assistants, student workers, hundreds of players, thousands of students... yes, this was an institution-wide conspiracy. What else could you call it?

Again, the Chancellor at the time has already resigned as a result of this thing. That's the top dog in the entire university getting unseated because of the extent of misconduct that occurred under his watch, and it was BEFORE we knew the full scope of it.

[Edited on October 27, 2014 at 10:52 AM. Reason : /]

10/27/2014 10:46:13 AM

I have no idea what the NCAA will do...but (and you can count me as somebody who's been skeptical this whole time about UNC receiving much punishment) the NCAA has to do something, right? Given the national outrage over this and the length of the investigation something has to be done. At least it seems that way.

And the NCAA is back on campus...I think back in the summer maybe is when they returned. What are they investigating? It's this same academic stuff, right?

10/27/2014 11:06:02 AM

^^ The death penalty is highly unlikely, however vacating wins during these years would be completely understandable based on Michigan and the Fab 5. Watch the ESPN 30 for 30 if you need a refresher on that situation that caused them to vacate all wins from those seasons based on a single player on the team. Here we are talking about multiple players on 3 Championship teams, to me it seems like common sense the same penalty should be applied to UNC.

The death penalty would be fucking awesome though, even a 1 year death penalty takes a school years to come back from.

10/27/2014 11:10:37 AM

^
Yep. I remember the start of that documentary where the Michigan AD(or the chancellor) sounded genuinely remorseful and with full conviction asked the banners to be brought down. Bubba on the other hand...

10/27/2014 11:15:31 AM

Quote :

"The death penalty is highly unlikely, however vacating wins during these years would be completely understandable based on Michigan and the Fab 5."

See though, I don't consider that a punishment. You can do all the hand waving and rewriting of history you want, the Fab Five still won all those games and still made the Final Four twice. If you don't believe me, I can provide you a link to it on Youtube. Michigan in the Final Four did happen, regardless of what the NCAA says. Auburn did win the national championship in football, even if we have conclusive proof in the future Cam Newton got paid.

[Edited on October 27, 2014 at 11:37 AM. Reason : /]

10/27/2014 11:35:59 AM

Take a small post season ban (on a season they may not even be eligible to have post season play anyway). Yank a few scholarship but continue to use the brand to land good recruits to fill the scholarships you do have? Sounds like it's worth all the cheating, especially when considering they took 20 years to get caught.

It didn't work out for football but it clearly allowed them to build and maintain a dynasty in basketball.

10/27/2014 11:39:09 AM

The unspoken rule with the NCAA has always been that they wouldn't vacate a championship, it seems. Taking away second place and final four appearances suits their aims, because you still have "champion" for that season. Vacating a championship hurts their brand just as much as the schools.

So I'll believe it when I see it. Call me skeptical.

10/27/2014 11:49:17 AM

For most teams vacating wins wouldn't be that big of a deal but if includes having to take banners down I think it is. At that point you're damaging the brand and it does have teeth.

10/27/2014 11:49:36 AM

Duke didn't miss a beat.

10/27/2014 11:58:16 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_penalty_%28NCAA%29

Based on historical punishments...all tough talks in the beginning ending with a whimper.

10/27/2014 11:58:31 AM

Quote :

"Take a small post season ban (on a season they may not even be eligible to have post season play anyway). Yank a few scholarship but continue to use the brand to land good recruits to fill the scholarships you do have? Sounds like it's worth all the cheating, especially when considering they took 20 years to get caught."

This. The NCAA earns all its $$ from March Madness. They've yanked FF banners but not the ultimate champ unless it is football(USC). Hurts their brand... plus they don't touch UNC,Duke, Kansas and Kentucky anyway...

[Edited on October 27, 2014 at 12:33 PM. Reason : ]

10/27/2014 12:32:47 PM

Agreed taking wins only hurts if you have to take down banners otherwise who gives a shit. Anything less than the death penalty as well as loss of banners means they got off easy based on severity of the crime versus what others have done and what penalty they received.

10/27/2014 12:53:20 PM

If all that comes from this is vacating some wins then you can be sure that paper departments are going to prop up across most major schools b/c they'll realize the reward far outweighs the risk

10/27/2014 1:13:40 PM

Exactly and they will have a perfect case to point at when they sue them for giving them any harsher penalty. To be fair if the hammer doesnt get dropped in the end UNC is going to be secretly lauded by all the bigger schools because that will be the end of the NCAA and the schools with money will get to do whatever they want after that.

10/27/2014 1:19:22 PM

^ that's the only thing that is keeping a glimmer of hope for a harsh penalty, imo. The NCAA should recognize that a harsh and decisive judgement is needed if they want any hope of keeping their amateurism charade going.

From PP, FYLolz:
http://northcarolina.scout.com/story/425518-scott-named-to-all-acc-academic-team

Quote :

"GREENSBORO, N.C. -- The 2004-05 All-ACC Academic Basketball Team was released by the Atlantic Coast Conference on Wednesday. Former Tar Heel guard Melvin Scott was named to the 10-member squad. Scott earned his UNC degree in African Studies in May 2005."

[Edited on October 27, 2014 at 2:14 PM. Reason : add another note]

10/27/2014 2:09:09 PM

^^ The silver lining there is that the UNC scandal will be brought up for years and years as the incident that changed college sports as we know it. A constant reminder of their 20 years of fake classes to keep their smug levels in check.

But I'm sure their fucking insane fanbase would take pride in it as "the time they fought the NCAA for the betterment...." Their deflecting/denial pisses me off more than the cheating. Fortunately the inability to grow a pair and fess up is exposing to the whole country the pompousness we deal with continuously.

10/27/2014 2:34:55 PM

Quote :

"But I'm sure their fucking insane fanbase would take pride in it as "the time they fought the NCAA for the betterment...." Their deflecting/denial pisses me off more than the cheating. Fortunately the inability to grow a pair and fess up is exposing to the whole country the pompousness we deal with continuously."

Haha. I remember thinking how odd it was since the beginning that UNC fans defended Butch Davis and fought so hard for him. Maybe I'm biased, but I feel like if TOB (just using him since he was State's coach at the time this all broke, and both started the same year) had gotten NC State in a similar situation, we'd have been ready to fire him then and there. The fans fought tooth and nail to keep a coach who was going 7-5 or so every year. I feel like State fans, at least me personally, would be far more outraged at this kinda stuff than UNC fans have been. UNC fans have, in the face of all sorts of evidence to the contrary, been mostly in denial.

[Edited on October 27, 2014 at 2:48 PM. Reason : maybe i'm totally biased...who knows]

10/27/2014 2:48:13 PM

you wanna get nuts? LET'S GET NUTS

1. Vacate all banners/achievements/wins of at LEAST Mens & Womens Basketball and Football (including preseason tournaments, ACC tournaments, NIT tournaments, NCAA tournaments, Bowl games) during the period of infraction (hitting ol Dementia Dean)
2. FORFEIT all regular season games during the period of infraction
3. Death Penalty akin to SMU for Mens and Womens BB, Football (again, at LEAST these programs)
4. Loss of NCAA voting rights indefinitely until corrective actions are verified by independent 3rd party auditor
5. Loss of accreditation indefinitely until corrective actions are verified by independent 3rd party auditor
6. Loss of conference revenue sharing indefinitely until corrective actions are verified by independent 3rd party auditor

10/27/2014 2:50:56 PM

^

*jizzes*

10/27/2014 2:59:53 PM

I think they should build a tunnel from the bathrooms in Carter Finely and the PNC Arena and have it funnel directly into the Dean Dome (no one gives a fuck about Kenan) and make it our permanent sewage dump.

10/27/2014 3:01:40 PM

^^^I think I just came.

10/27/2014 3:34:49 PM

back to earth guys.

10/27/2014 3:36:09 PM

I live in central VA now and there are a surprising number of UNC fans up here. I assume because historically UVA and VT suck the dick in basketball so they have become bandwagon Tar Hole fans. Regardless, 95% of them are Walmart style fans.

I've talked to a couple since the latest news broke and one did not realize anything new came out and the other acted like it wasn't a big deal. I tried to explain to the one who actually heard that his team is a bunch of cheating cocksuckers going back to the Dean Smith days and it was like talking to a wall. Based on these experiences, I honestly think UNC could be a front for ISIS and they would still sell jerseys and have a huge following as the majority of their fanbase are fucking tards.

10/27/2014 3:39:03 PM

Dean did things the right way, guys

10/27/2014 3:40:16 PM

Womens Soccer should get a pretty big hit

Quote :

"1996 25–1–0 7–0–0 Champions Champions 1997 27–0–1 7–0–0 Champions Champions 1998 25–1–0 7–0–0 Champions Runner Up 1999 24–2–0 7–0–0 Champions Champions 2000 21–3–0 4–3–0 Champions Champions 2001 24–1–0 7–0–0 Champions Runner Up 2002 21–2–4 4–1–2 Champions Semifinals 2003 27–0–0 7–0–0 Champions Champions 2004 20–1–2 9–0–0 Runner Up Third Round 2005 23–1–1 9–1–0 Champions Quarterfinals 2006 27–1–0 10–0–0 Champions Champions 2007 19–4–1 9–1–0 Champions Third Round 2008 25–1–2 9–0–1 Champions Champions 2009 23–3–1 9–3–0 Champions Champions"

shouldn't these be taken away, fuck the university.

[Edited on October 27, 2014 at 3:44 PM. Reason : asa]

10/27/2014 3:43:31 PM

If UNC doesn't want to bring down the banners, fine. Rather than remove the banners, I wish the NCAA would make them take a wrecking ball to the Dean Dome, with them still hanging. That would be the greatest outcome ever. Of course Death Penalty and vacate all wins in revenue sports and the soccer teams and shit too during the entirety of the time. All of it. Gone.

10/27/2014 3:43:55 PM