im not making any assumptions with this case, because i have no idea how the said rape occured. but i definitely believe that the girl is responsible in all instances where she gets drunk and clouds her judgement and decides, in that state, to have sex with a guy. so what if she regrets it the next day, she has to live with it. she made the choice to drink and therefore she must accept the consequences of that choice. (no that doesnt mean she should be raped) all i'm saying is if she willingly goes along with it, drunk or not, it's not rape on any level in my book.

compare it to say, drunken driving. someone is drunk and they make the decision to get behind the wheel and cause a fatal accident. of course they're going to regret making that decision and blame it on clouded judgement, but that's no excuse.

i just wish there was some way to distinguish between the "rape" i described above and the type of rape that involves violence and resistance during the act itself. the guy really has no way of proving which of the two it was, so it almost always gets handled as if it was the latter.

i guess the best defense for this guy would be testimonies from people that observed the two of them together that night, if there is anyone. but even that doesnt give solid evidence towards either possibility.

10/20/2005 2:34:49 AM

whether or not the girl was raped, and whether or not any of the other possibilities happened, the moral of the story is this:

DO NOT have sex with someone who you think might be too drunk to be thinking clearly

10/20/2005 6:49:36 AM

Quote :

"I'll probably catch shit for this, but most of the psychological trauma rape victims suffer is created by society. As bad as sexual assault is, it only causes depression, withdrawal, or whatever when culture says it should."

uhhhh, hows that
and what are you basing this conclusion off of

10/20/2005 8:21:05 AM

Quote :

" DO NOT have sex with someone who you think might be too drunk to be thinking clearly"

Sometimes that's tough when you might also be too drunk to be thinking clearly.

10/20/2005 8:24:35 AM

Quote :

"its not the people you dont know that are the biggest problem in the kind of situation youre describing:"

actually, in the category of "rape," everyone is a concern. so my point still stands. just take out the "around people you don't know" part and it still works.

The seatbelt analogy is freaking stupid. It actually goes to show my point, instead of going against it. Wearing a seatbelt has absolutely no effect on whether or not you have a traffic accident. It DOES have an effect on whether or not you sustain serious injuries IN AN ACCIDENT. Thus, wearing a seatbelt decreases your chances of being hurt, should you get in an accident. Similarly, not getting drunk and not wearing skimpy clothes decreases your chances of rape, especially if you are at a party.

Quote :

"instead of getting people to stop drinking why not stop letting guys think like the fucktards in this thread"

maybe because rape is a two person affair? yeah, one person gets fucked, but that person can take steps to prevent getting fucked. If you don't give the jackass the OPPORTUNITY to rape you and you don't draw his attention, then you don't get raped. Date rape is different, of course, but I'm not talking about date rape, as that is preventable via other means (mainly a swift kick to the nuts).

Quote :

"the guy really has no way of proving which of the two it was, so it almost always gets handled as if it was the latter. "

heeeeeey, somebody gets the point here...

Quote :

"Sometimes that's tough when you might also be too drunk to be thinking clearly."

if thats the case, then the girl is also guilty of rape. consent can NOT be given by anyone who is under the influence. but, the guy is still probably fucked, even in this case.

10/20/2005 8:53:33 AM

i wish i could kick your ass right now
not that it would change anything, but maybe it would help me not feel so frustrated and amazed that there are dumb fucking peices of shit that actually think like you do

10/20/2005 9:37:23 AM

Quote :

"The seatbelt analogy is freaking stupid. It actually goes to show my point, instead of going against it. Wearing a seatbelt has absolutely no effect on whether or not you have a traffic accident. It DOES have an effect on whether or not you sustain serious injuries IN AN ACCIDENT. Thus, wearing a seatbelt decreases your chances of being hurt, should you get in an accident. Similarly, not getting drunk and not wearing skimpy clothes decreases your chances of rape, especially if you are at a party."

you are an idiot

ok, let me spell this out for you

rape ~ the accident
skimpy clothes ~ not wearing a seatbelt

the "accident" would have happened whether or not you were wearing your seat belt
the "seat belt" might have changed what happened to you during the accident, but it does NOT make the accident not occur

[Edited on October 20, 2005 at 9:58 AM. Reason : .]

10/20/2005 9:57:15 AM

Perhaps I should revise my metaphor a bit because it seems to me that a rapist might be more willing to do so in a situation where someone is drunk... but that doesn't make the drunk person at fault.

So perhaps driving without your headlights was on.

Quote :

"Wearing showy clothes or being intoxicated seems to me comparable driving without a seatbeltheadlights. While it might be a little irresponsible on a practical level to do something like that during bad driving conditions, if you blame someone on a moral level for having another car wreck into them just because they weren't wearing a seat belt then you aren't very bright."

The idea being, perhaps the wreck(rape) would not have happened had your headlights been on, but that still does not make you responsible for the other driver being in your lane and wrecking into you. I probably need to think about and clarify this example more, but i dont want to be late for class so I'll look at this more later.

10/20/2005 10:16:40 AM

I don't know if anyone else has brought this up, but did it appeal to anyone the reason WHY these laws are in place?

It seems to me that the laws involving impaired consent are in place to avoid some desperate guy from seducing a girl by getting her all juiced up, then having sex with her. I don't know all the details, but from reading the article, I garuntee you it is what some other people have illuded to where it is more of a matter of SHE got drunk, SHE chose to hang out with the guy, and SHE had sex with him. Its not necessarily that he took advantage of her. I think that this kid was just a freshman so he didn't really pay much attention to all of the "don't have sex with drunk chicks" speaches at orientation.

Hardily a case for rape. I would say he deserves something to be a slap on the wrist, but I think this experience will teach him better in the future.

-Pack

10/20/2005 10:26:09 AM

Quote :

"Hardily a case for rape. I would say he deserves something to be a slap on the wrist, but I think this experience will teach him better in the future."

how can you make that call without knowing what happened

10/20/2005 10:29:51 AM

Just making a call out of what has been said in the Technician.



I guess I know just enough to make this call as much as the bleeding-heart feminists that are calling for his head on a pike. Arn't opinions beautiful?

-Pack

10/20/2005 10:34:28 AM

equate wearing skimpy clothes to dangling meat in front of a hungry dog. cuz drunk guys are pretty primal, not thinking rationally.

equate a drunk female to wounded prey.

sure no one is ASKING to be raped, but it never hurts to take SOME personal responsibility, to avoid risky situations, to avoid placing yourself in a position where you COULD be taken advantage of.

im not blaming women at all, i am emphasizing the fact that an ounce of prevention is worth pounds of the cure, that you arent completely innocent when you wear skimpy clothing, flirt, let guys take body shots off you, etc.

10/20/2005 10:54:23 AM

innocent until proven guilty...oops i mean guilty until proven innocent in cases of rape.

[Edited on October 20, 2005 at 10:59 AM. Reason : .]

10/20/2005 10:58:24 AM

Quote :

"sure no one is ASKING to be raped, but it never hurts to take SOME personal responsibility, to avoid risky situations, to avoid placing yourself in a position where you COULD be taken advantage of."

According to that logic, the first time I was sexually assaulted it was my fault because I sleep in the altogether and my roommate decided that she didn't have to lock the front door before going to bed--and three years later it was my fault that I was sexually assaulted because I stepped out of my apartment while wearing a t-shirt and shorts and said hi to the guy that wound up raping me.

10/20/2005 11:10:34 AM

not your fault, 1 was your roomies fault for not locking the door, and 2 could have happened to anyone.

10/20/2005 11:12:28 AM

10/20/2005 11:13:04 AM

exactly...it could've happened to anyone

NO MATTER WHAT YOU ARE WEARING

/scantily clad debate

10/20/2005 11:14:55 AM

that doesnt end the 'scantily clad debate'

i mean answering your door at night in shorts and a t shirt is nothing at all similar to going to a keg party with your tits hanging out of your shirt.

10/20/2005 11:18:11 AM

well here's a better metaphor than the seatbelt/headlights accident one...theft

a bike/car/stereo unattended...just b/c it's unattended doesn't make it ok or justifiable to take it

just b/c a girl has on a small tank top and a mini skirt doesn't make it ok or justifiable to sexually assault her

gah people...a crime is a crime no matter which way you slice it.
murder is murder even if the person who got killed was a fucking asshole or a criminal themselves...
rape is rape even if the girl was dressed like a skank or promiscuous and had 80 other sexual partners b4 she was raped

[Edited on October 20, 2005 at 11:25 AM. Reason : bad wording]

10/20/2005 11:24:44 AM

There's a difference between rape and theft. People don't blame the victim when they get mugged.

10/20/2005 11:29:38 AM

i think the victim in a theft situation is generally no more responsible than a victim of rape or sexual assualt

some better judgement could have possibly been used, but ultimately it isnt their fault

10/20/2005 11:31:16 AM

Yeah, flashing your Rolex in public is asking for it.

People who drive expensive cars are also begging to be carjacked.

10/20/2005 11:32:27 AM

true Sonia...unfortunately very true.

10/20/2005 11:32:33 AM

not true. i had my car broken into and a lot of stuff stolen back in high school.

when making an insurance claim, i was asked if the vehicle was locked.

out of curiosity, i asked the reason for the question.

their answer? "we cannot pay a claim if the owner failed to excercise personal responsibility"

and driving an expensive car or wearing a rolex is not asking to be mugged, but parking an expensive car in the projects, or flashing your rolex at a seedy bar is for sure a stupid move on your part.

[Edited on October 20, 2005 at 11:34 AM. Reason : ]

10/20/2005 11:32:35 AM

This may very well be one of those cases where something unfortunate happened, but not real crime was committed. I seriously hope there is more evidence than the fact they had both been drinking and had sex.

10/20/2005 11:33:09 AM

I like the theft metaphor, it gets at what I was going for more clearly.

Anyone can be robbed, although people flashing fancy things are more likely to become targets. Still no one deserves to be robbed simply for having a nice car.

I think its important to distinguish between things that can practically help, and moral deservingness. While no one deserves to be raped, there are practical steps that can help avoid it. Not taking those steps however does not lead to a moral deservingness of being raped.

As far as the insurance thing goes I think that just arises from you agreeing to a contract where you agreed to take practical steps & that if you didn't you wouldn't be able to get money... which has nothing to do with any level of moral deservingness.

10/20/2005 11:40:45 AM

thats what i was trying to get across, that no one deserves to be raped, that it isnt ok to rape anyone, but there damn sure are things you can do to help prevent becoming a victim.

rjr said earlier that she'd been taught since middle school to avoid walking alone at night, avoid sketchy parking lots or alleys, etc.

but all of the girls here seem to defend anyone dressing like a slut or drinking too much at a keg party. in my mind, that would be just as much a contributing factor as anything else.

10/20/2005 11:46:02 AM

Anyone can be robbed raped, although people flashing fancy things tits and snatch are more likely to become targets

10/20/2005 11:48:48 AM

exactly.

10/20/2005 11:49:52 AM

You know, there is such a thing as shared responsibility.

I said it before and I'll say it again....this guys, I don't believe, was trying to rape this girl, I think he was just assuming that she could make rational decisions when she had been drinking. I mean come on...how many people do you know that when they get buzzed, you can't really tell completely. I know that of my friends, I know quite a few that you can't really tell when they have closed that line of not making good decisions.

I really think this is just a matter of an ignorant freshman learning that he is in the real world the hard way. I'm not saying he should get off scot-free, but I am saying that I think the charge him with rape would be overkill.

-Pack

10/20/2005 12:02:03 PM

http://www.technicianonline.com/story.php?id=012460

no fucking wonder, campus police is involved.

10/20/2005 12:02:31 PM

ya know, its not always the girls that are hanging out of their clothes that get raped at a party. the point i think the girls here are trying to make about clothes is that the clothing is used as an excuse.

i guess yall dont understand how scary it can be to go to bed by yourself and wake up with some random naked guy beside you or with some (or all) of your clothes off, etc..., when you KNOW damned well that YOU didnt do anything that should have resulted in either one of those things (naked guy, missing clothes)
especially when its a guy you gave no cause to think that anything was going to happen, or that you specifically told him nothing WAS going to happen

esp if its in a place where you feel safe, like youre with your friends at a party where you know a lot of people or its a small group hanging out at someones house -- and you think for sure none of those guys would be the kinda guy to do something to a girl who was unwilling, passed out, too drunk to even realize what was going on, etc....

10/20/2005 12:02:40 PM

she left a party and went back to his fucking room with him!

what a stupid whore

10/20/2005 12:04:27 PM

Quote :

"According to Barnwell, the incident allegedly occured in Davis' residence in Bowen Hall after the couple returned from an off-campus party."

so they are described as a couple. (dating?)
and she went back to his room with him.

doesnt seem like a smart decision for her.

10/20/2005 12:05:48 PM

Quote :

"i guess yall dont understand how scary it can be to go to bed by yourself "

[/thread]

confessions of a frat mattress.

10/20/2005 12:07:09 PM

gg taking something completely out of context

im serious, like go to sleep on a couch, expressly by yourself, in a situation where everyones crashing there and everyones already figured out where theyre sleeping, so there shouldnt be any confusion that youre sleeping alone on purpose

10/20/2005 12:08:35 PM

"i guess yall dont understand how scary it can be to go to bed by yourself and wake up with some random naked guy beside you or with some (or all) of your clothes off, etc..., when you KNOW damned well that YOU didnt do anything that should have resulted in either one of those things (naked guy, missing clothes)
especially when its a guy you gave no cause to think that anything was going to happen, or that you specifically told him nothing WAS going to happen"


But see, this is the very point, rjr. HOW to get into that situation? How do you get to the point that you can't remember what happened between when you wanted to go to bed and when you woke up?

Either (a) you are stupid, (b) you have a mental condition, or (c) you drunk irresponsibly. You know, its not so much to ask that you not get drunk. Furthermore, if someone does get drunk, they should realize that things happen that they may not normally do if they get drunk and that's part of the decision.

I mean, if a girl sleeps with a guy and neither of them choose to use birth control and the girl gets pregnant, I mean, they really didn't WANT to get pregnant now did they? But they still have to pay for the consequences of their actions.

As stated before...personal responsibility...something lost on many of our peers. And those who do think they know personal responsibility don't know it nearly as much as they should.

-Pack

10/20/2005 12:09:46 PM

Quote :

"just b/c a girl has on a small tank top and a mini skirt doesn't make it ok or justifiable to sexually assault her"

Damn skippy. If I go to a party wearing something that somebody would consider "sexy" and flirt with the guys, that is NOT a license for any guy to force himself on me (or to even try to force himself on me), no matter how much some of the neanderthals in this thread seem to think so.

10/20/2005 12:11:06 PM

Quote :

"But see, this is the very point, rjr. HOW to get into that situation? How do you get to the point that you can't remember what happened between when you wanted to go to bed and when you woke up?"

no, im saying, i went to fucking sleep, like i was not awake when this occured

10/20/2005 12:11:39 PM

And to amend to your last post (since that was posted while I was typing my last one), let me say that if you are crashing at a place where you know there are a lot of drunk people, you should know that you need a locked door between you and those drunk people.



In addition to that, if you have not been drinking irresponsibly, how do you not wake up when someone is taking your clothes off. That is something that if you said "you don't know how it feels..." I would agree because that is something that I typically wake up during.

-Pack

10/20/2005 12:12:07 PM

Quote :

"In addition to that, if you have not been drinking irresponsibly, how do you not wake up when someone is taking your clothes off. That is something that if you said "you don't know how it feels..." I would agree because that is something that I typically wake up during."

Just cos you're a light sleeper, that doesn't mean that everyone else is.

10/20/2005 12:13:04 PM

then maybe find yourself a more secure area to sleep in.

i mean find a bathroom or bedroom that locks.

or a dd to take you home so you arent sleeping at a strangers house.

[Edited on October 20, 2005 at 12:13 PM. Reason : dd]

10/20/2005 12:13:15 PM

Quote :

"then maybe find yourself a more secure area to sleep in. i mean find a bathroom or bedroom that locks."

I'll remember that should my bedroom window ever get broken or my door get jimmied.

10/20/2005 12:14:19 PM

I am by no means a light sleeper, but someone has to do a lot of moving on your body to take your clothes off and you not notice.


Unless I guess if you were a girl who is not wearing a lot of begin with.


Personal responsibility.

Like what Grapehead said...




EDIT: ....or if you were drinking irresponsibly.

[Edited on October 20, 2005 at 12:15 PM. Reason : Amend]

10/20/2005 12:15:09 PM

Phone: 919-512-7518
Major: Mechanical Engineering-Undesignated
Class: Freshman
E-mail: cbdavis3@ncsu.edu

10/20/2005 12:15:23 PM

i for one have never lived in an area where my windows were prone to getting broken, or my doors jimmied.

i mean do you reside in the projects or what? buy a gun.

10/20/2005 12:16:19 PM

tasers are great too.

And they are legal on education campuses.

[Edited on October 20, 2005 at 12:17 PM. Reason : amend]

10/20/2005 12:16:47 PM

there were 10-15 people
i was sleeping on an L shaped couch at like 4 am, me on one side and the guy i was there with on the other
and yea it was a party, so we'd been drinking
we were the only ones in the basement, everyone else was upstairs in the living room or passed out in their own beds, and the door was shut

and i woke up like an hour later, extremely confused, realized my pants and shit were on the floor, and another guy had just walked off to go to the bathroom

i still have no idea what happened, because i wasnt awake
and i definately didnt consent
i had in fact made it clear all night that i was with the other guy and just plain not interested - but i didnt see him as a threat, i saw him as some 18 year old kid being drunk and flirty, because he wasnt being threatening at the time

now im sorry, but in that situation, where its a small group of people that know each other and its clear who im with and also that i was ASLEEP.... there shouldnt have been any need for a locked door, nothing should have happened


clarification, i was wearing shorts (like normal gym shorts) and a tshirt - i wasnt just splayed about in my fucking panties or something

[Edited on October 20, 2005 at 12:18 PM. Reason : ,]

10/20/2005 12:17:16 PM

not arguing what he did was ok.

but you placed yourself in that situation.

if taking your clothes off and fucking you doesnt wake you up

then you should not pass out in public.

10/20/2005 12:18:28 PM

no there was no fucking, id have woken up for that
but otherwise, i really have no fucking clue what happened

[Edited on October 20, 2005 at 12:19 PM. Reason : sorry i didnt clarify i was talking about some sort of sexual assault, not rape]



sorry but fully clothed, in a room with just the guy i came with and sleeping next to him... shouldnt have happened

[Edited on October 20, 2005 at 12:20 PM. Reason : `.]

[Edited on October 20, 2005 at 12:22 PM. Reason : ^it was on a couch at a friends place, not some random dorm hall or some shit]

10/20/2005 12:19:21 PM