Lawmen's typically has a lot of cop trade-ins, usually Glocks, S&W autos, Beretta 92-series, and occasionally SIGs and HKs. The prices are always very reasonable, if not downright screaming deals. I would guess you aern't going to find such guns listed on the web, the best way to keep track of it is to check in down there once every couple of weeks or so. However, be warned that walking into this store on a regular basis can become a very expensive habit if you are one who enjoys firearms of all types.

9/10/2008 9:45:30 AM

Has anyone shot the Ruger LCP?

9/10/2008 9:15:49 PM

^I've put a few magazines through one, and watched the owner fire a bunch more through it. Not a single malfunction and hitting targets the size of a basketball from 15 yards is a simple matter even with the rudimentary sights.
From what I could tell, it's probably going to turn out to be the best of the compact .380 pocket pistols. It conceals just as well and feels just as good, if not better in your hand than a Kel-Tec, with none of the Kel-Tec reliability issues.

9/11/2008 10:26:44 AM

that is, until the kahr p380 starts shipping soon

http://www.kahr.com/PA-1_380_p.html

9/11/2008 10:30:56 AM

^ I like your gun. I have the P-229. Came in the same "Law Enforcement" case.

[Edited on September 11, 2008 at 10:53 AM. Reason : a]

9/11/2008 10:53:24 AM

Quote :

"that is, until the kahr p380 starts shipping soon http://www.kahr.com/PA-1_380_p.html"

$649 for a pocket-sized .380. And it's made by Kahr. I'm laughing.

9/11/2008 12:11:16 PM

kahr makes good guns....now vs the lcp head to head i dunno if it warrants the price difference but some owners are particular and would pay the extra price difference if it is indeed a superior gun

9/11/2008 1:37:37 PM

Kahr makes excellent guns. But there really isn't a reason to go with the .380 when you can have the 9mm.

9/11/2008 3:26:37 PM

I agree...except if you just want a really small true pocket pistol...i am happy with my PM9

9/11/2008 3:50:45 PM

Quote :

"and hitting targets the size of a basketball from 15 yards is a simple matter even with the rudimentary sights. "

shit, if i couldn't drill basketball sized targets from 15 yards with a pistol without even thinking, i think i'd look for something else.

9/11/2008 4:07:45 PM

^^PM9 representing. Too bad I'm small enough that I have a hard time concealing it in a regular jeans and t-shirt outfit (small of back, right hand draw).


--on the subject of the PM9, What are the better feeding rounds you have used? I've had the following:

Winchester: cheapo FMJ, some feed issues at times
Remington: cheapo FMJ, best feeding yet
Federal Hydra-shoks: initial round chambeiring is difficult
Hornandy TAP: initial round chambeiring is difficult

[Edited on September 11, 2008 at 4:09 PM. Reason : -]

[Edited on September 11, 2008 at 4:10 PM. Reason : -]

9/11/2008 4:09:08 PM

I'm going to get either the LCP or S&W 340PD. Not totally sold on an auto yet. The Kahr might be interesting because I might be able to get it from a friend for half that.

9/11/2008 7:11:47 PM

In regards to the Kahr P380, you're talking about a gun that's even smaller than the P3AT & LCP. Add in Kahr's high level of finishing & MUCH better trigger and it's worth a bit more (as long as it proves reliable. Hopefully they've learned from the early PM-series). I'd consider one if it ends up being around $500 and reliable since I'll never buy another KT and the LCP has had a few more issues than I'd like. I'm willing to put money into a pocket pistol since it's likely to be the most carried gun I'd own and it seems that none of the cheap stuff is truly 100%.

9/11/2008 8:25:37 PM

Now Kahr has a load of technical, ergonomic, reliability and customer service reasons for why you should purchase one, but this doesn't hurt either:

9/11/2008 9:38:10 PM

I hate those adds.
She needs a cheeseburger.

9/11/2008 11:53:13 PM

or a hot dog

9/11/2008 11:57:19 PM

^^ agreed. That bitch is too damn skinny. The Glock chick is MUCH hotter.

[Edited on September 12, 2008 at 12:30 AM. Reason : .]

9/12/2008 12:30:08 AM

Quote :

"shit, if i couldn't drill basketball sized targets from 15 yards with a pistol without even thinking, i think i'd look for something else."

Sure, with a full sized service pistol it's cake to hit stuff at several times that range, but you'd be suprised at how inaccurate/difficult to shoot some of the tiny pocket numbers can be, particularly when there is an extremely stiff DAO trigger and poor sights involved.

I dunno if I'd call the Kahr 'superior' to the Ruger. The Ruger is quite a bit smaller and more concealable. Basically what I'm saying is that it is somewhat refreshing to have a pistol of this size on the market that actually works every time you pull the trigger, because many (Kel-Tec, Beretta Tomcat, Seecamp, etc.) have been somewhat dissapointing in the reliability and useability department.

9/12/2008 10:15:46 AM

i haven't shot a lot of REALLY small stuff, but the two that come to mind immediately are a really small 1911 (made by Para, and I couldn't hit shit with it), and a SIG P232, which I was fucking deadly with (almost as accurate as I'd be with a full-size pistol).

9/12/2008 5:24:15 PM

Quote :

"I dunno if I'd call the Kahr 'superior' to the Ruger. The Ruger is quite a bit smaller and more concealable."

Which Kahr are you talking about? If you're talking about the PM9/40 then you're correct. If you're talking about the P380 (which is my assumption) then the Kahr is actually smaller than the LCP/P3AT. I'd actually like to see some pics comparing it to the Rohrbaugh (sp?).

Kahr vs. P3AT:

9/12/2008 6:17:30 PM

In Conclusion, I'm going to buy an auto and the S&W.

9/12/2008 11:04:00 PM

Try a Beretta 21A.

9/13/2008 12:29:47 AM

Any thoughts on the Ruger P95? Buds has them right now for $320

9/23/2008 7:59:13 PM

bttt

Still undecided on what to get, and I can't get anything until probably November due to the fact that I am in Virginia and can't buy a handgun in Virginia and won't be able to get back to NC until November. I will be in Raleigh this coming weekend though and wanted to shoot a little bit. Are most of the ranges open on Saturdays?

Also, what caliber should I be looking at? I just had a classmate and ex-cop told me nothing less than a .40. I have had others tell me to start with a .22, and others say 9mm. What are the thoughts on caliber for a first handgun owner?

10/5/2008 1:59:28 PM

9 mm

best bang for buck and will still kill someone

.40 and larger are just for people with small dicks

10/5/2008 2:03:18 PM

i have no problems with 9mm, but larger calibers are fine as well

10/5/2008 2:26:10 PM

9mm ALL THE WAY SON.

Target ammo is way cheaper and personal defense ammo is about as plentiful and cheap as you can get. It's cheaper than weaker calibers such as the .380 Auto and it's cheaper than slightly more powerful calibers like the .40S&W and .45ACP. Note that the increase in power when going to a .40S&W or .45ACP is minimal.

Double Tap's 115gr 9mm Gold Dot load puts out 511ft.lb. of muzzle energy and travels at 1415fps out of a Glock 17 (4.5" BBL, polygonal type rifling), at a cost of $28/50rds. If you go to the right websites, you can get Federal's 9BPLE (115gr +P+, 1300fps out of a 4" BBL) for $15/50rds, Winchester's Ranger 115gr +P+ (1335fps out of a 4" BBL) for $20/50rds and Federal's HST in 124gr +P or 147gr +P for $20/50rds. Those prices are so damn good that you just can't turn down the 9mm son. It offers solid penetration and expansion. In fact, few .40S&W or .45ACP loads expand or penetrate much (If any) more than the equivalent 9mm loads. The only time you'll see a big difference between the three calibers is with FMJ's. Because of today's ammunition technology, current JHPs are some nasty fucks.

I stock up on 9BPLE rounds simply because they're cheap and proven. In a SHTF situation they will work and I can afford to own a lot of them. My preferred load if money is no object is Extreme Shock's Enhanced Penetration Round. I carry a mag full of ES Fang Face's in my Glock 26, but that round has been discontinued. The EPR is just fine anyway. My preferred "standard" copper jacketed lead hollow point is Speer's Gold Dot, but loaded by Double Tap or Buffalo Bore because they produce significantly higher velocities than the Speer loads.

I'd go with Double Tap because their ammo is half the price of Buffalo Bore while providing identical performance. Sometimes their rounds put the bullet out at slightly higher velocities and sometimes slightly slower, but they're always very close. Double Tap uses Starline cases and low flash powders that are perfectly matched to the application. Their velocity claims are not over-rated and many chronograph owners report that the numbers are spot on and sometimes even better than advertised. I haven't heard of any problems with their 9mm loads appearing to be over-pressurized either.


I stick with Glocks. They work well for me, point naturally and I trust them to function EVERY time I pull the trigger. I have never had a failure with either of my Glock 9mm pistols. I have a Glock 17 and a Glock 26. Note that the 9mm Glocks have a fully supported chamber, so don't let some Glock hater tell you about how dangerous all Glocks are. I do not believe that the models that aren't fully supported are dangerous either and there are plenty of other guns that lack fully supported chambers.

The key is to remember that your gun (Whatever you happen to get) is not the same as every other gun, this is no different than with anything else. You can't treat a two-stroke engine the same way you'd treat a four-stroke. As long as you do what the manual suggests and you understand what your gun can and can't do, you should be just fine. Defects are very rare with Glocks and with most of the other proven handguns from major manufacturers.

Just remember that using reloads in a Glock can be risky for a few reasons. First of all, you have weakened cases due to the lack of a fully supported chamber. The case wall bulges out slightly in the unsupported area of the chamber when you fire the round. If you reload this case again and it happens to perfectly line up such that the weakened portion of the case wall is seated in the unsupported area again you could have a KB. The second thing is that the risk of an overcharged round is higher when you reload your own ammo, the unsupported chamber wont like this. One thing to remember though, is that no gun is going to "like" an overcharged round. In some cases, the unsupported chamber may be better, because it directs the blast downward through the mag well, ejecting the mag. This expends a lot of the energy that would otherwise be going into putting shrapnel into your hand and face.

The other thing to avoid in all Glocks is the use of non-jacketed ammunition. This is due to the polygonal rifling, which (Unlike more traditional rifling) offers no place for lead deposits to build up. If you do fire straight up lead bullets like SWCs, you've got to clean the barrel VERY often (Like at least once every 50 rounds or less I'd say) to avoid significant over-pressurization due to lead buildup. I also don't recommend using really high powered loads if you'd doing this, because the margin of safety begins to get very small.

[Edited on October 5, 2008 at 3:01 PM. Reason : ]

10/5/2008 2:46:39 PM

9mm is fine with good hollow point ammo (Gold Dots, etc).

.45 is good for military applications where the geneva conventions require us to use FMJ. otherwise, there isn't enough difference between 9mm/.40/.45 to worry too much about it.

10/5/2008 2:52:44 PM

Any ranges in Raleigh open on Saturdays that allow gun testing, renting, etc.? I would like to shoot some of the guns that I am looking at before buying, but don't know where I can do this.

10/5/2008 5:24:56 PM

since davi's closed, there aren't very many places with a good selection for rent.

PDHSC is one local place with a VERY limited selection.

Quote :

"I have never had a failure with either of my Glock 9mm pistols."

a lot of people can stay that about their brand gun. taking their pistol and shooting a couple thousand rounds (during practice) though it is a better test of durability. which i recommend any gun owner do before they bet their life on it.

[Edited on October 5, 2008 at 5:45 PM. Reason : s]

10/5/2008 5:37:32 PM

Quote :

"a lot of people can stay that about their brand gun. taking their pistol and shooting a couple thousand rounds (during practice) though it is a better test of durability. which i recommend any gun owner do before they bet their life on it."

DUH, I never said that nobody else could say that about their brand of gun. I simply said that my Glocks have never once failed. The is absolutely no need for you to even comment on such a statement. It is always a good idea to buy a gun that is proven to be reliable rather than the newest gun on the market. The 9mm Glocks have been proven for 20+ years. But yes, of course you can get a defective gun (See below) and of course you should test it out. I have done this with ALL of my guns.

My Kel-Tecs have never failed, my Mossberg 590 has never failed and my H&R Pardner has never failed. I don't see what that has to do with this though, because from my understanding this is a thread about his first hand gun. That throws the relevance of the reliability of my 590 and Pardner right out the window and the Kel-Tecs tend to be pocket pistols (Except my PLR-16, which is way too big to be carrying around unless you've got a trench coat). The point is, just because I said that my Glocks have never failed doesn't mean that I have no grasp of the fact that there are guns besides Glocks that don't fail. That would be pretty fucking stupid dude.


My S&W Model 642 is a different story though. It did not work right out of the box. It only fired 2 out of every 5 rounds. Neither of my Glocks has ever failed, from the first day I fired them and from then on. This is with any kind of ammo from 115gr to 147gr, from standard pressure to the highest pressure 9mm loads available. Nobody that I know who owns a Glock has had it fail either, they are dead reliable. 9mm Glocks are some of the most proven, reliable semi-auto handguns that I can think of actually.

If someone wants to mention the 1911 as a more proven handgun (As if I've never heard of it or some bullshit), just remember that lots of today's 1911's are very picky about ammo and some are trash. I see threads being made all the time about how this guys 1911 wont fire one type of ammo or the other, etc. Sure, there are great 1911's, but I see a lot more problems with various manufacturer's 1911's than I do with 9mm Glocks (And XD's, but I'm just not a fan of the Croatian brick). I like my handgun to be able to fire pretty much anything available because of the possibility of a SHTF situation.

Your first handgun should be relatively large (I mean, I'd even consider a Glock 26 to be relatively large compared to the Kel-Tec pocket pistols) so that it's easy to shoot and shoot often. If you plan on CCing then you'll probably want a compact or sub-compact depending upon your body type and size. I have to have very small handguns to CC, so I use a Glock 26 right now. The Glock 19 is a GREAT overall handgun. The S&W M&P compact is somewhere between the size of a Glock 26 and a Glock 19 and most people like the feel of the grip better. The problem is that it's a relatively new gun, so it's not nearly as proven IMO. The capacity is also kind of low for it's size. I've heard of people having problems with them although it seems that these problems occured in calibers other than 9mm. I'd have no problem owning the 9mm full size or compact M&P.

Quote :

"since davi's closed, there aren't very many places with a good selection for rent. PDHSC is one local place with a VERY limited selection."

As far as Davi's range closing down goes, all I have to say is good riddance. That place will NEVER get my money after what happened when I looked at a Mossberg 590 there.

PDHSC has a great range and their staff is much more professional. The only problem is their selection, but what they do carry is damn good stuff. Get a Glock or S&W M&P chambered in 9mm son. I've never been a fan of the 9mm XD series simply because the gun is so blocky and massive. I understand that Glocks are "block" shaped, but the XD's slide is the size of a fucking brick.

[Edited on October 6, 2008 at 8:25 AM. Reason : ]

10/6/2008 7:59:50 AM

I agree on the 9mm suggestion. ALL auto loader handgun rounds are marginal at best (well, except for something asinine like a DE .50) and with a 9mm you'll have more rounds on board, be more likely to practice more often, and have plenty of options to chose from.

Quote :

"As far as Davi's range closing down goes, all I have to say is good riddance."

Amen. As anal as they run their range, the only reason they've having safety problems has to be the monumental stupidity of their clientele. I've belonged to a number of ranges with "big boy rules" and safety was never an issue.

10/6/2008 11:52:52 AM

Quote :

" The is absolutely no need for you to even comment on such a statement."

There is also no need to make a testimonial about every gun you've ever owned in every single post about guns you make. Seriously.

[Edited on October 6, 2008 at 12:46 PM. Reason : d]

10/6/2008 12:40:17 PM

Anybody know a Hi-Point dealer? I want to get a C9 for a starter pistol, and was just curious where I could purchase a new one locally.

[Edited on October 6, 2008 at 1:04 PM. Reason : ]

10/6/2008 12:50:32 PM

Quote :

"There is also no need to make a testimonial about every gun you've ever owned in every single post about guns you make. Seriously."

What in the hell are you talking about dude? Why don't you take your argumentative bullshit to chit chat. This thread is about buying a handgun, the man wants advice, so I gave him the knowledge I have about the handguns I own. I haven't given anybody a testimonial about every gun I owned.

Oh, are you referring to my response to you saying that "other people can say that about their guns too?" GTFO with that bullshit son, you brought up a ridiculous point and you know it.



^ I can't say for sure where you could just walk in and leave with a new Hi Point. They are quite reliable and their warranty is just about the best there is though. You can pretty much saw the gun in half, send it in and then they'll replace it and send you a free mag. You'll definitely want to polish the feed ramp and you may need to mess with the magazine lips a bit to get it to reliably function at first, but they do work just fine. There are even a few holsters available for them. The easiest thing to do might be to order one online or go into a store and see if they can order it for you. Beware that a lot of store employees may try to talk you out of it though. They're damn ugly, but for the money they're unbeatable.

[Edited on October 6, 2008 at 1:28 PM. Reason : ]

10/6/2008 1:05:55 PM

I suggest you buy more than a handgun

10/6/2008 2:30:59 PM

I understand the 9mm v. .40 argument...it makes sense to me. But why do so many law enforcement agencies issue firearms that shoot .40?

10/6/2008 6:38:39 PM

^^^^Zebulon Pawn in Zebulon is the best place to buy a HiPoint. Jim has pretty good prices (amazing what some people charge for a damn HP) & he likes to wheel & deal (especially with students). Keep in mind that he doesn't have a ton of mark up in HPs though. I'll second what SaabTurbo said. Having actually owned one, I can say that it is the biggest POS that just happens to be 100% reliable. I actually want to get another and see how long I can go without cleaning it. Then I'll just send it in and get another one. Ugly as hell, awkward shape, feel cheap (they are), & completely unbalanced, they just plain work. Make sure you know that everyone that has never owned one or shot one will suddenly tell you that you bought a piece of shit that will fail when you need it most & they know a guy that dated a girl whose brother's Father-in-law knew a guy that had a buddy who bought one and died when it suddenly exploded after having 57 failures in a row.


^ A lot of depts. went to the .40 because it was supposed to be the next big thing. After several departments had trouble with perps getting shot multiple times and still fighting, they decided that it was the 9mm's fault (completely ignoring that the level of firearm training given by the majority of depts. in the U.S. is completely & utterly ridiculous & levels of "competence" are kept low so that more people can be "qualified" in a field that has a fairly low level of recruiting). Other departments realized that the problem was the shooting and decided that the .45 was just too difficult to shoot so the smaller caliber must be better (and of course it had to be better than the "wimpy" 9mm that couldn't kill a fly) without realizing that .40 is MUCH more difficult for most people to shoot than .45 or 9mm. Now the trend is actually moving away from .40 it seems back to .45 (& some 9mm).

10/6/2008 7:31:00 PM

^ Exactly, changing to .40S&W seemed to be a knee jerk/trendy reaction rather than a rational one.

^^^ What, do you carry a rifle around with you all the time? Sure, I've CCed my Kel-Tec PLR-16 (A large handgun that fires 5.56x45mm rifle ammunition), but it's very difficult to conceal.

In today's society (When it comes to self defense) handguns are generally for carrying, while rifles and shotguns are normally reserved for home defense.



[Edited on October 6, 2008 at 7:59 PM. Reason : ]

10/6/2008 7:40:25 PM

What do ya'll think about the Firestorm .380? In comparison to the Hi-Point C9?

10/10/2008 8:57:11 PM

I don't recommend a .380 over a 9mm. The ammo actually tends to be more expensive and there's less to chose from when compared with the 9mm.

However, my personal opinion is that the Bersa is a better built handgun than the Hi Point. The Hi Point will work though. You should look into a Taurus or Bersa chambered in 9mm if price is a really big deal, if concealability and price is your main concern and you don't plan on shooting the gun often I'd go with a Kel-Tec PF-9. If you just need a decent reliable handgun then the Bersa will work.

Here's a review on the Bersa, I'm particularly fond of Gunblast.com and their reviews. Oddly enough, Jeff at Gunblast says he's received more positive email regarding the Bersa than just about any other firearm he's ever written about. If you have any serious questions, ask him. He always get's back to me within 24 hours and usually much less than that.

http://www.gunblast.com/Bersa_380CC.htm

[Edited on October 10, 2008 at 9:03 PM. Reason : ]

10/10/2008 9:01:41 PM

Quote :

" Velocities were checked using a Chrony Master Beta"

anyone else find the humor in that?

10/10/2008 9:41:46 PM

^LOL.

As for price, I would like to keep it about $200 or less. I want something reliable, with decent capacity, good stopping power, easy to conceal (as I will be getting my CCP), and something I can train on at the range, and thus cheap ammo when I practice.

A coworker has a Firestorm .380 that he has shot about 300 rounds through and wants to sell it for $160. Hence why I asked about this. Right now I am still more into getting a brand new C9.

10/10/2008 9:49:40 PM

Well check out the review I posted then y0.

10/10/2008 9:52:45 PM

if anyone wants a police trade in sig229R .40 DAK night sights, 3 12rd mags, they are on sale for $485.

$515 shipped to your FFL if you use a credit card.

good deal if you want a .40 and can stand the DAK trigger.

10/11/2008 1:29:51 AM

^^^ The Bersa is going to be a better a MUCH better choice for CCW. HPs are just too damn bulky and there's very few holsters for them (maybe 3 total?). I guess you could always get a cheap nylon holster but they're really crap and only good for temp use at most imo.

I'd suggest saving a bit longer if that's what you're looking for (CCW). $200 is absolutely bottom of the barrel when it comes to firearms. You really need to double it to get to the good quality stuff (I'm not talking about target shooters but just really reliable). If you go to $300, that's enough to get into something that will work a lot better for CCW (taurus 9mm for example).

10/11/2008 8:16:03 AM

Ive mentioned it before (cant remember if its in this thread) but I have a bersa thunder 380 as regular concealed weapon, and I love it.

I find it to be a fantastic pistol, there arent any negatives I can think of about it.

10/11/2008 1:05:11 PM

^I talked to dude man this afternoon and I am checking out his Firestorm this week. He even said he had a nice holster for it to CCW, but he doesn't have his CCW permit and wants his money back to get something a little better, since he's not concerned with CCW.

10/11/2008 6:01:15 PM

shoot it before you buy.

10/11/2008 6:07:46 PM

Definitely.

10/11/2008 7:10:41 PM