Quote :

"If it is, explain how the majority of obese americans are poor, if they are going to bed hungry"

Go to Whole Foods, tell me what the demographics are of the people who shop there are.... and what the general prices, healthiness and quality of the items are. Then go to Piggly Wiggly and do the same.

What is the price of boneless chicken breast? What is the price of chicken thighs? Who are more likely to eat each and for what reason?

Think critically people.



[Edited on March 5, 2007 at 5:28 PM. Reason : .]

3/5/2007 5:26:25 PM

Quote :

"Cause they eat toal garbage because it's cheaper."

How the hell is fast food, candy, soda, etc. cheaper?

3/5/2007 5:26:47 PM

^^

Are you inferring that shopping at Wholefoods will somehow prevent obesity whereas those who shop at discount supermarkets or places like Aldi are doomed to obesity?

If so, perhaps you should be the one thinking critically.

That aside that still doesn't address how poor people are going to bed hungry when they are obese.

and by hungry, I don't mean they want another supersized big mac combo. I mean, they aren't getting enough to eat, which was your original assertion.

3/5/2007 5:29:54 PM

I can teach poor people how to eat healthy and inexpensively, but it's pretty much common sense if you walk into the grocery store and open your eyes.

3/5/2007 5:31:03 PM

Reminds me of the 3.3 breakfast.

http://www.kurtsaxon.com/foods002.htm

3/5/2007 5:32:23 PM

Quote :

"BobbyDigital: it's not cheaper at all. that's stupid."

Right. Fresh vegetables are more filling and cheaper than potato chips.

And canned vegetables and fruits are just as nutritious/delicious as fresh, right?

[Edited on March 5, 2007 at 5:37 PM. Reason : sss]

3/5/2007 5:37:10 PM

Quote :

"Fresh vegetables are more filling and cheaper than potato chips."

Duh.

3/5/2007 5:39:45 PM

Quote :

"Are you inferring that shopping at Wholefoods will somehow prevent obesity whereas those who shop at discount supermarkets or places like Aldi are doomed to obesity?"

No, but people make rational choices in response to their economic and social realities. A poor person makes a rational choice to maximize their benefit in terms of economic costs, thus getting the most food for the least money, as this means they will maximize their limited resources.

The affluent person is likely to be significantly more educated and has higher economic mobility, thus they make the rational decision to purchase significantly more expensive but healthier products to minimize negative externalities associated with low quality food products, (i.e. obesity, heart disease and cholesterol).

It's a function of education, as well as contextual social and economic rationality. I'm sure if you went to Sam's Club or Aldi you would still see a wide disparity in the choices that certain demographic groups would make in their purchases depending on their economic resources.

3/5/2007 5:44:07 PM

Do you people know how many potatos, carrots, rice, apples, lettuce, spinach, broccoli, etc. a person can get for $25? It will be a whole lot more food than if they bought five meals from Wendys.

I bought 6.5 lbs of chicken breasts yesterday for ~$14 after tax. That's less than a dollar a piece for the chicken breasts. Add another $1.75 for brown rice and salad and it will be a good healthy meal for less than $3.

3/5/2007 5:46:17 PM

^ if $3 a meal was that affordable, then why do people have trouble paying $1.50 for their kids school lunch?

3/5/2007 6:22:50 PM

^
1. Cooking for yourself gets cheaper as you scale upwards (feeding more than one person.)
2. I'm not going to argue "why" they don't have $1.50. It has already been discussed more than it needs to be in this thread and it's obvious that you are just asking the question because you want to debate it further.

I'd ask you how "poor" people get fat on less than $3 per [adult sized] meal? Are they just existing solely on sugar and buckets of lard? Fuck no. Nine times out of ten they are eating hamburgers and fries.

[Edited on March 5, 2007 at 6:31 PM. Reason : s]

3/5/2007 6:28:37 PM

Most poor people get food stamps. I remember when I used to get 130 bucks a month in food stamps, and I made some gourmet feasts. I didn't buy my groceries at Piggly Wiggly, either. A poor single mother of 2 should be eligible for several hundred dollars per month in food stamps, which can easily feed a 3-member family.

The assertion that poor people are "going to sleep hungry" is ludicrous.

[Edited on March 5, 2007 at 6:41 PM. Reason : 2]

3/5/2007 6:36:50 PM

^ I would love for the person in my program who runs a nonprofit homeless shelter to discuss the actual causes of poverty and also have you tag along for a week and see what is actually happening... not whats happening in this constructed reality you attempt to use to rationalize your arguments.

Might I also remind you that the number one cause of bankruptcies in the US are related to exorbitant health care expenses, not people making unwise consumer spending decision. There are literally millions of people in this country a broken leg away from being out on the street.

3/5/2007 6:52:12 PM

I've spent thousands of hours doing volunteer work for non-profit companies aimed at helping the poor. I also spent a year living well below the poverty line in one of the most expensive places in America (voluntarily). I don't need to make up some "constructed reality" in order to rationalize my beliefs.

But thanks for making assumptions about me and what I know.

3/5/2007 7:02:48 PM

^" if $3 a meal was that affordable, then why do people have trouble paying $1.50 for their kids school lunch?"

because they dont have to!!!! I could pose, why dont they get a job....and the same answer applies.

You dont need to look any further than katrina footage to know that poor people arent starving, not in this country.

3/5/2007 7:56:36 PM

Reading the last couple pages of this thread just confirms my belief that most anti-welfare people have no idea what welfare really is

3/5/2007 7:58:49 PM

Quote :

"Rape victims don't rape themselves, but then again poor people don't vote or manipulate the policy process and wages/benefits to make/keep themselves poor either. Both examples include external actors pushing negative externalities onto an unwilling party."

How many poor people have done all they can to improve their situation?

Quote :

"Didn't this discussion start by saying its pointless and dumb to feel sorry and help out the poor and then as soon as Bridget brought up childcare people told her that the imaginary mom should find a church or relative to help her out with the children? Doesn't that come from people empathizing for and helping out the poor? "

There is a difference between helping the poor for personal reasons and forcing others to help the poor.

Quote :

"ure, it's anecdotal, but there's nothing that she's doing that any able bodied person could not do. But cleaning houses is pretty damn hard work. So i guess that's why so many people don't mind working for a lot less with the addition of that nice little welfare check. "

This is really where a lot of the problem is. There are a lot of hardwork / hard labor jobs out there that pay tons better than food service or other jobs. But they require hard manual labor, and many people just aren't willing to do that. Many people also won't work for themselves, but lets take our single mom again. If the child care figures posted before are accurate, people are paying a good $1300 a month average for child care. Single mom could take just two kids and nearly double her current monthly income and she can watch her own kids. Why not do that?

Quote :

"Cause they eat toal garbage because it's cheaper. End of the month, they may run out of garbage and be hungry for a few days. "

Bull shit. There is no possible way that it is cheaper to eat crap fast food or premade food is cheaper than buying and making your own food. That $300 budget I gave for food includes main course, side and buiscuits/bread. And it's not all water and grits. I feed two adults from the same $300 / month budget, my meals include such things as steak, corn, broccoli, potatoes, buscuits, milk, iced tea, eggs, orange juice, pizza, spaghetti, pot roast, stir-frys, fried rice, hamburgers, hot dogs, sausages, grapes, carrots, sodas, beef stews, oatmeal, french toast, pancakes, chilli, fried chicken, grilled chicken, tacos, burritos and occasional snacks and treats. It's a very rare month that I spend the full $300 and even rarer that I go over.

Quote :

"Reading the last couple pages of this thread just confirms my belief that most anti-welfare people have no idea what welfare really is"

What pray tell is welfare then oh wise one?

3/5/2007 8:06:25 PM

It's temporary (5 years cumulative max.) assistance for needy families.

You all act like it's a career path.

3/5/2007 8:25:37 PM

I heard they give you an extension if you need more cell phones.

3/5/2007 9:01:42 PM

well yeah, but they need them.

3/5/2007 9:02:28 PM

Quote :

"Many people also won't work for themselves, but lets take our single mom again. If the child care figures posted before are accurate, people are paying a good $1300 a month average for child care. Single mom could take just two kids and nearly double her current monthly income and she can watch her own kids. Why not do that?"

Would you pay $1300 a month to take your kids to a dilapidated, poverty and crime ridden neighborhood and let someone with no accountability, training or credentials take care of your kids? Wow, you thought this one through.

[Edited on March 5, 2007 at 9:07 PM. Reason : .]

3/5/2007 9:06:15 PM

poor people? FUCK EM

3/5/2007 9:43:09 PM

what's with the guy that's always outside of IHOP?

3/5/2007 10:06:20 PM

is he poor? FUCK EM

3/5/2007 10:11:46 PM

yep 4 to 5 years to line up your disability claim. You are right. I see at least 3 a week and get asked to fill out paperwork for 1 a month. Last month was a 35 year old who told me her doctor told her her blood pressure was too high to work. LOL, and she is legally blind(without glasses). Of course she is 20/20 with glasses, but she doesnt want to hear that.

Her "problems" are all correctible and def. not a disability...however, I bet she is on it when i see her next year.

3/5/2007 10:14:51 PM

i believe in teaching a man to fish

3/5/2007 10:21:28 PM

there's another saying along those lines.

Build a man a fire, and keep him warm for a night.

Set a man on fire, and keep him warm for the rest of his life.

3/5/2007 11:23:21 PM

Quote :

"Would you pay $1300 a month to take your kids to a dilapidated, poverty and crime ridden neighborhood and let someone with no accountability, training or credentials take care of your kids?"

What dilapidated, poverty and crime ridden neighborhood do you know that's charging $600 / month in rent? Or are we now assuming that people who make $24k / year can't afford to live anywhere but the slums? As far as accountability, training and credentials, as a wake tech employee she can attend classes for free. Wake tech offers (suprise!) child care courses. As a student, she is elegable for financial aid to assist her with living expenses while she attends school.

3/5/2007 11:25:33 PM

So not only have you made the assertion that every poor single mother can make a comfortable living by running illegal unlicensed day cares from their private residences, they all can all be employed at Wake Tech as well!

What the hell are you talking about?

3/6/2007 12:06:27 AM

Quote :

"Do you consider education a common good? Why not childcare and pre-school?"

the last thing I'd ever do is send my kid off to some government subsidized daycare with a government employee watching out for my kid...


have you ever tried to get something at the DMV, or any other government office?
most government employess suck ass and don't give a shit about their job because they're secure in it... I refuse to put my kid in that enviroment

that also goes for govt healthcare, I don't want to have to deal with a "walter reed hospital" situation if I need an operation

3/6/2007 12:08:15 AM

Quote :

" most government employess suck ass and don't give a shit about their job because they're secure in it"

It's not that the employees suck or that they feel secure, is that gov. organizations are structured with lots of needless redundancy, and have no aspects that depend on performance goals. Private org. have to compete against a myriad of other companies, where as gov. does, and people become lazy (this is the natural tendency of people).

Gov. grants to private organizations would work though.

Ideally, we'd have to find a way for the gov. or gov. organizations to compete for tax dollars, instead of them just dumping all our money in to a big pot to fund every elaborate crackpot scheme they come up with.

3/6/2007 12:31:48 AM

I just saw on the news a piece on the kid that died bc his mother is an idiot. The 12 year old CALLED his mother from the hospital to say goodbye. Parent of the year there folks. If only we could throw more money at her, she could make things right. Good thing medicaid pays for fertility drugs so she can have a couple more kids to neglect.

3/6/2007 8:22:25 AM

what the fuck are you talking about?

Quote :

"most government employess suck ass and don't give a shit about their job because they're secure in it"

Wrong. It isn't the government employees, it is the people contacting them. I'm so sick of answering the phone for people who want to talk to Liddy Dole or Richard Burr. I'm sick of people not knowing who the fuck they are supposed to contact and yet it is somehow my fault? I'm sick of poeple asking baseless fucking questions that are based upon internet hoaxes. I'm not your end all for fucking trivia or your problems. Find out who is directly responsible and go to them. Don't call me.

[Edited on March 6, 2007 at 8:28 AM. Reason : .]

3/6/2007 8:26:22 AM

Quote :

"So not only have you made the assertion that every poor single mother can make a comfortable living by running illegal unlicensed day cares from their private residences, they all can all be employed at Wake Tech as well! What the hell are you talking about?"

I see you've failed all of your critical reading courses. You'll notice I said nothing about every poor single mother, I was talking about this example presented, and specifically using it as an example of someone who is not using all of the availible resources at her disposal to improve her situation.

As far as illegal unlicensed day cares, there is absolutely nothing wrong with an unlicensed day care, provided that you, as a parent, take the time to learn about it and do some research. What makes an unlicensed mother of 2 any less qualified to watch over your kids as you? Are you certified and up to date on CPR? Do you have safe and properly fenced outdoor play areas for your kids? Have you ensured that every child that spends more than 4 hours in your home on a regular basis has at minimum 200 cubic feet of air space? Licensing for day cares is nice and certainly saves parents time, but it's also a bullshit artificial barrier to entry.

The whole point here is, I find it very difficult to feel sorry for a person who has not used even some of the more basic resources at their disposal in an attempt to better their situation. I and LoneSnark have listed plenty of options which this poor mother of 2 could take advantage of to improve her situation and no one has provided a good reason as to why she can't use some of them.

3/6/2007 8:40:47 AM

I believe social assistance should only be available when children are affected.

If you're > 18 years old, get a job. Can't buy your spinners? Get two.

3/6/2007 8:47:52 AM

Quote :

"1337 b4k4: The whole point here is, I find it very difficult to feel sorry for a person who has not used even some of the more basic resources at their disposal in an attempt to better their situation. I and LoneSnark have listed plenty of options which this poor mother of 2 could take advantage of to improve her situation and no one has provided a good reason as to why she can't use some of them."

You listed 1) moving home to live near family/friends, 2) finding someone to watch her kids for whatever compensation she can afford, and 3) finding another single mom to live with.

1. She may be alienated from her family/friends back home or not have any support there. She may not be able to afford to move. She may not be able to leave her job.
2. A lot of people do this, and their kids are neglected/abused/exposed to all sorts of nasty things. She works two jobs, one full and one part; she should be able to afford decent childcare for her children. And since she can't, since many people can't, daycare should be provided by the government.
3. This is a great idea! I really dig it. Obviously, not everyone would be so lucky to find another single mom to work this out with.

Quote :

"pwrstrkdf250: the last thing I'd ever do is send my kid off to some government subsidized daycare with a government employee watching out for my kid... have you ever tried to get something at the DMV, or any other government office? most government employess suck ass and don't give a shit about their job because they're secure in it... I refuse to put my kid in that enviroment"

But you'd send them to public school?

Government daycare doesn't have to be bad. For a lot of people, it would probably be better than what they're getting now. I want public subsidized pre-school, too, to help get these kids get a head start so they'll be on the same level as their peers when they enter kindergarten.

[Edited on March 6, 2007 at 9:00 AM. Reason : sss]

3/6/2007 9:00:11 AM

Quote :

"But you'd send them to public school?"

no.

3/6/2007 9:05:10 AM

Quote :

"But you'd send them to public school?"

after growing up going to public school... absolutely not

Quote :

"Wrong. It isn't the government employees, it is the people contacting them. I'm so sick of answering the phone for people who want to talk to Liddy Dole or Richard Burr. I'm sick of people not knowing who the fuck they are supposed to contact and yet it is somehow my fault? I'm sick of poeple asking baseless fucking questions that are based upon internet hoaxes. I'm not your end all for fucking trivia or your problems. Find out who is directly responsible and go to them. Don't call me."

obviously you've never tried to get something from the DMV, the IRS or any other alphabet company the govt has...

you should be hapopy that people call because they want to still be involved or know what the government is doing

if you don't believe that most government employees suck ass, look no further than the Walter Reed Hospital situation



[Edited on March 6, 2007 at 9:14 AM. Reason : ...]

3/6/2007 9:11:30 AM

I went to both private and public school.

I can't say one is better than the other, but I went to public school in Wake County. That's a little different than public school out in some economically disadvantaged county.

Quote :

"obviously you've never tried to get something from the DMV, the IRS or any other alphabet company the govt has... you should be hapopy that people call because they want to still be involved or know what the government is doing if you don't believe that most government employees suck ass, look no further than the Walter Reed Hospital situation"

Your dad was a government employee. Did he do a shitty job?

My dad is a government employee, and he certainly doesn't do a shitty job.

[Edited on March 6, 2007 at 9:15 AM. Reason : sss]

3/6/2007 9:14:40 AM

My public school education was fine. I don't think the kids coming out of Broughton, Leesville, NCSSM, Enloe, Cary, Athens...and many of the other schools in the area are complaining much when their kids are going to top notch institutions on full rides either.

3/6/2007 9:15:29 AM

^^I went to wake co public schools my whole life


and I refuse to send my child to public school now

yeah he was, but he was a cop back when cops were respectable for the most part, he also didn't make many friends in the hierarchy there either

^ by the time I have kids and they're of school age, the one sided indoctrination to the world that they receive in public schools will be ridiculous

fuck some teacher unions

FOR THE MOST PART government employees suck balls and do their jobs just enough that they don't get fired

[Edited on March 6, 2007 at 9:19 AM. Reason : ...]

3/6/2007 9:16:06 AM

AHA, are you serious? PM me where you went so I can understand what the fuck you're talking about.

(Cause seriously, dude, Gibbons or Ravenscroft or Hale or whatever...are no better. I can understand if you want to send your kids to boarding school to get a classical education, but otherwise...)

[Edited on March 6, 2007 at 9:19 AM. Reason : sss]

3/6/2007 9:16:58 AM

I went to AB Combs, Ligon, and Athens


and I don't care for "church" schools, but I am never sending a kid of mine to a public school

3/6/2007 9:20:36 AM

I went to public school in eastern, nc. I will not send my children to public school.

3/6/2007 9:20:44 AM

^Nobody cares.

^^What indoctrination are you concerned about? We all went to public school, but somehow we all have different points of view... Is the indoctrination on the rise or some shit?

And teachers unions? Where?

3/6/2007 9:22:51 AM

They have them up north.

3/6/2007 9:26:46 AM

^^ I was one of the few that didn't agree with everything the teachers shoved down my throat in public school.. not to mention times have changed since I was in HS... (esp at k-5 level since no one wants to get their feelings hurt)

yeah, teachers unions and the other teacher associations (NCAE, etc)that are actually relevant here are not out for the childs best interest.

3/6/2007 9:45:43 AM

Teachers' Unions are, perhaps, the most dangerous thing facing our children today.

3/6/2007 9:48:11 AM

Quote :

"You listed 1) moving home to live near family/friends, 2) finding someone to watch her kids for whatever compensation she can afford, and 3) finding another single mom to live with. 1. She may be alienated from her family/friends back home or not have any support there. She may not be able to afford to move. She may not be able to leave her job. 2. A lot of people do this, and their kids are neglected/abused/exposed to all sorts of nasty things. She works two jobs, one full and one part; she should be able to afford decent childcare for her children. And since she can't, since many people can't, daycare should be provided by the government. 3. This is a great idea! I really dig it. Obviously, not everyone would be so lucky to find another single mom to work this out with."

1) She may be alienated, but certainly for the health of her children, it would be worth at least an attempt to reestablish relations no? And that still doesn't account for friends here. As far as affording to move, I am quite confident that assuming her relatives and/or friends will allow her to move in to help her out that they could help her move as well. She may not be able to take everything with her, but at the very least she can sell what she can't and have extra money for the move. As far as leaving her job goes, she earns ~24k / year, you said she waitresses on weekends, which means her secretarial job is probably paying about $10 / hr. Someone with 6 years experience and good references should be able to find a similar job with very little difficulty, especially if they don't have to worry about rent while they search for the job. Again, I'm not saying it would be easy, but as it stands her current life isn't easy either, just familiar.

2) Part of the reason she can't afford good child care is as noted above, the whoe licensing structure for day cares. Bear in mind I have no issues with having licenses, just issues with creating artificial barriers to entry for child care. Furthermore, there's still the issue of church based child cares. There are plenty of places where your child could be cared for by an unlicensed person who would provide better care than a licensed provider. Yes it's not a guarantee, but cheap quality care gets talked about, ask arround a bit and see what's out there. It's a risk to be sure, but as it stands her options are potentially bad care, or no care whatsoever. But as I said, I actually wouldn't mind an subsidized care program, implimented on a state level and paid directly to the care center. And I'm with the people above, assistance paid to private care centers not government run centers, make them compete.

3) But again, it's worth a try. This is her children's health we're talking about here. Surely they're worth taking a few hours on craigslist. Interestingly, the government is in a very good position to impliment and provide a service for this. Certainly a service that I wouldn't mind some tax money going towards.

3/6/2007 9:50:07 AM

^^^Name something they tried to shove down your throat that you disagreed with.

In high school, there were political teachers, but we were all mature by then and able to have debates. Nobody was being indoctrinated.

^AHA, so you want her to find people who have extra space and would let her stay there rent-free while she finds a job and a new place to live so that after she gets settled on her own, they'll watch her kids while she's at work. Yes, this goes on; famiyl and friends help one another out all the time. But to expect that everybody has that option is ridiculous. Get your head out your ass.

[Edited on March 6, 2007 at 9:57 AM. Reason : sss]

3/6/2007 9:50:58 AM