The thing that bugs me the most about this whole mess is people who complain about the presence of Christmas trees (as though they have anything to do with the Christian meaning of Christmas), and then the religious people who act like the removal of said trees was some kind of assault on their faith.

It's a fucking tree that we throw lights and shiny shit all over and pile presents under. Unless there's some origin I'm unaware of, the thing is pretty secular.

12/19/2009 10:13:49 PM

Oh, the tree tradition is undoubtedly pagan.

12/19/2009 10:15:33 PM

Secular, Pagan
Tomato, Tomatoe

...might as well be the same thing when no one gives enough of a shit about history.

12/19/2009 10:17:28 PM

you could interpret that the Bible tells us specifically NOT to have a christmas tree.

Quote :

"Jeremiah 10:2-4: "Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.""

12/20/2009 12:06:20 PM

Happy Solstice!

12/21/2009 3:34:10 PM

By jove you're right sir!

12/21/2009 3:43:32 PM

Damn, I meant to post that (now yesterday) in here and I thought I had. Well, I had just about the most kick ass solstice ever. Hell, it will likely be better than Christmas! *bring on the angry mobs to burn me at the stake*

12/22/2009 12:39:22 AM

Furor Erupts Over Atheist Display At State Capitol

Quote :

"A conservative activist and Illinois comptroller candidate was escorted from the Illinois State Capitol building Wednesday when he tried to remove a sign put up by an atheist group. William J. Kelly announced Tuesday that he planned to take down the sign put up by the Freedom from Religion Foundation, and on Wednesday, he tried to make good on his plan. But Kelly said when he turned the sign around so it was face down, state Capitol police were quick to escort him away. Illinois Secretary of State's office spokeswoman Henry Haupt said Kelly was escorted from the rotunda by state Capitol police, who briefly detained him, wrote an incident report, and directed him to leave the building. "It doesn't matter how we feel about the message on a display," Haupt said. "Our obligation is to protect the property within the state Capitol building, and we would do the same for any other display." But Kelly called the sign "hate speech," and said he does not believe it is appropriate for a sign that "mocks" religion to be placed next to a Christmas tree and also near a nativity scene. "I don't think the State of Illinois has any business denigrating or mocking any religion," Kelly said, "and I think that's what the verbiage on the sign was doing." The sign reads: "At the time of the winter solstice, let reason prevail. There are no gods, no devils, no angels, no heaven or hell. There is only our natural world. Religion is just myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds." The sign was also on display at the Capitol at this time last year. The group says it filed for a permit to post the display in response to the state's decision to put up the nativity. But Kelly said he believes the problem is not only the verbiage of the sign, but also its proximity to the Christmas tree. "The fact that sign was immediately in front of the tree, I found that to be disturbing because any family and any child would run up to that tree with a smile on their face, and they would immediately see that sign," Kelly said. Haupt said Kelly had been advised not to return to the state Capitol for the rest of the day on Wednesday. The Madison, Wis.-based Freedom from Religion Foundation has placed the sign in several state Capitol buildings across the country. As to Kelly's claims that the sign mocks religion, foundation co-President Dan Barker said: "He's kind of right, because the last couple of sentences do criticize religion, and of course, the beginning is a celebration of the winter solstice. But that kind of speech is protected as well – speech that is critical and speech that is supportive." The foundation does not approve of the nativity scene, Barker said. "We atheists believe that the nativity scene is mocking humanity," by suggesting that those who do not believe in Jesus will go to hell, Barker said. "But notice that we are not defacing or stealing nativity scenes because we disagree with their speech." Signs in other states have been targets of vandals, Barker said. In Wisconsin, someone threw acid on it one year, and some people turned it around and hid it in the back rooms of the state Capitol, and in Washington state, someone walked it out of the Capitol and threw it away, Barker said. The Washington state sign was later found in a ditch near a country radio station and returned to the capitol in Olympia. This is the second year the Freedom from Religion sign has been at the Illinois State Capitol. Haupt said in addition to the sign, the Nativity Scene and the Christmas tree, there is also a Soldiers' Angels wreath, and a tabletop display from the American Civil Liberties Union that says the group "defends freedom of religion." A Hanukkah menorah had also been on display until the Jewish Festival of Lights ended on Saturday. For the second year in a row, the Capitol also has an aluminum Festivus pole commemorating the fictional holiday created in "Seinfeld.""

http://cbs2chicago.com/politics/capitol.atheist.display.2.1387754.html

If you have to try to "defend" your faith by removing any criticisms of it, it seems like you would realize that your faith isn't worth defending in the first place. Is the sign wrong? Is it just a myth, a superstition, and it does degrade humanity.

[Edited on December 24, 2009 at 9:21 AM. Reason : ]

12/24/2009 9:21:01 AM

"Separate church from state, that's what some liberal said. I say it's time we separate that liberal from his head."

http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/211034/november-23-2008/a-colbert-christmas--toby-keith-sings

12/24/2009 10:14:46 AM

Quote :

"For the second year in a row, the Capitol also has an aluminum Festivus pole commemorating the fictional holiday created in "Seinfeld."""

awesome

12/24/2009 10:30:39 AM

^^^As much as I believe in freedom of expression, I really don't think it's appropriate to put up a sign advocating the abolition of religion next to religious signs. Might as well put up a swastika next to the Menorah.

12/24/2009 10:51:04 AM

Hahaha, if you say so.

12/24/2009 11:03:12 AM

Get rid of the nativity scene and they can get rid of the sign. I think the tree is secular enough.

12/24/2009 11:07:26 AM

Merry Christmas!

12/25/2009 12:08:30 AM

Quote :

"We atheists believe that the nativity scene is mocking humanity"

These people are full of shit. This kind of intolerance is just as bad as any religious extremist.

12/25/2009 12:15:13 AM

^ ha, how is that intolerance? They aren't the ones tearing down other peoples' stuff.

12/25/2009 12:19:31 AM

"The nativity scene is mocking humanity" is just pure, intellectually dishonest nonsense. No reasonable person actually thinks that way.

They are not trying to change minds, they are simply making attacks out of intolerance. Its the same thing Glenn Beck does, the same thing Westboro Babtists do. This is no different than holding up a sign that says "Your faggot soldier is in hell" at his funeral.

Yes, they have a right to free speech, but Atheism is not a protected class in the same way religion is, like race. None of the religious signs advocate hate or intolerance (although due to the actions of a few extremists, many people will unjustly infer that message).

12/25/2009 10:44:58 AM

Quote :

"^^^As much as I believe in freedom of expression, I really don't think it's appropriate to put up a sign advocating the abolition of religion next to religious signs. Might as well put up a swastika next to the Menorah."

I BELIEVE IN FREEDOM OF SPEECH ONLY WHEN I AGREE WITH THE IDEAS PRESENTED!!!!111one

12/25/2009 11:07:58 AM

Quote :

""The nativity scene is mocking humanity" is just pure, intellectually dishonest nonsense. No reasonable person actually thinks that way."

Nah, there's nothing intellectually dishonest about it. The whole idea that God impregnated a virgin and the baby that resulted was the savior of man (saving humans from eternity in hell which God himself created, but only if they admit he exists), but that baby was actually just God in human form, is absolutely mocking humanity. Christmas is great and all, but it has effectively become a secular holiday for a lot of people, and there's nothing wrong with pointing out how dumb the story of Christmas is.

12/25/2009 11:25:53 AM

Yeah, I really have a problem with stopping myself from laughing out loud whenever my family reads the Christmas story from the Bible.

12/25/2009 12:50:56 PM

Quote :

""The nativity scene is mocking humanity" is just pure, intellectually dishonest nonsense."

The story of the nativity is pure, intellectually dishonest nonsense. It's also pretty wicked.

[Edited on December 25, 2009 at 3:32 PM. Reason : ]

12/25/2009 3:21:41 PM

Christmas has made it one more year without being destroyed by The Liberals. It was a close one this year.

12/25/2009 5:57:06 PM

I hate A Christmas Story

12/25/2009 7:58:09 PM

Quote :

"there's nothing wrong with pointing out how dumb the story of Christmas is"

There's nothing wrong with pointing out how gross gay sex is, but holding up a "Fags are shit" sign during a gay pride parade isn't some admirable act of rebellious expression.

Quote :

"The whole idea that God impregnated a virgin and the baby that resulted was the savior of man (saving humans from eternity in hell which God himself created, but only if they admit he exists), but that baby was actually just God in human form, is absolutely mocking humanity."

Your literal interpretation is grossly skewed from the intended message of the nativity. Even in this literal form, I fail to see how this is "absolutely" mocking humanity. If anything, it casts a far more benevolent light on humanity than reality does.

12/25/2009 10:17:39 PM

Actually, I'm pretty sure you have to literally believe on the story of the nativity on order to be Christian. Christ's divinity, the virgin birth, and the resurrection are 3 of the central tennants of the faith. Read the Nicene creed and some of the other things that define the faith if you disagree.

Oh and while hardly admirable your example is a perfect example of what should be protected by the first amendment.

[Edited on December 25, 2009 at 11:55 PM. Reason : Dfhcxbn]

12/25/2009 11:52:08 PM

Quote :

"There's nothing wrong with pointing out how gross gay sex is, but holding up a "Fags are shit" sign during a gay pride parade isn't some admirable act of rebellious expression."

This is a horrible counter-example. The problem with persecuting gays is that there is no moral or reasonable reason to do so; it's just needlessly spiteful.

Criticizing the authenticity or humanity of an Iron Age myth is an entirely different endeavor. The criticism in this case has the advantage of being merited; the myth is both non-scientific and inhumane. Vicarious redemption, human sacrifice, human parthenogenesis, resurrection 72 hours after death... these are not qualities typically associated with humanity, either in the moral or biological sense.

12/26/2009 11:19:38 AM

The nicene creed is only used in Catholic, Lutheran and Eastern Orthodox. Most non-conservative Christian sects use the apostles creed, not as a literal pact but as a prayer and weekly affirmation of church belonging.

Quote :

"Criticizing the authenticity or humanity of an Iron Age myth is an entirely different endeavor"

1. There's no constructive criticism in the atheist's sign, only "needlessly spiteful" denialism.
2. A sign that literally states "Religion is just myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds" does not have a place in a neutral, government-provided religious display. I'm not saying the Atheists aren't entitled to their opinion, but the other religious displays are mere decorations with no distinct message or proselytizing. What if instead of the nativity, the Christmas display were a simple banner stating "All non-believers are evil and deserve to burn in hell"?
3. There's no evangelism or dark-age morality to be conveyed by a Christmas display. Arguing about the factual basis of the bible is asinine. It's fucking religion.

12/26/2009 5:40:42 PM

You left out Anglican/episcopalian. Point remains, belief in the divinity of Christ and the virgin birth are central to christianity regardless of denomination.

12/26/2009 5:53:55 PM

Quote :

"1. There's no constructive criticism in the atheist's sign, only "needlessly spiteful" denialism"

your use of "denialism" is quite ironic

"Denialism describes the situation where some people choose to deny reality as a way to avoid an uncomfortable truth:[1] "[it] is the refusal to accept an empirically verifiable reality. It is an essentially irrational action that withholds validation of a historical experience or event.""

Quote :

"but the other religious displays are mere decorations with no distinct message or proselytizing"

riiiiight....

Quote :

"What if instead of the nativity, the Christmas display were a simple banner stating "All non-believers are evil and deserve to burn in hell"?"

that would be perfectly fine, hooray Freedom of Speech

though I'm not sure that any non-believer would be offended in something that they do not believe in, i.e., hell

[Edited on December 26, 2009 at 6:02 PM. Reason : .]

12/26/2009 5:57:01 PM

Quote :

"1. There's no constructive criticism in the atheist's sign, only "needlessly spiteful" denialism. "

Sober criticism of religion is neither needless nor spiteful.

Quote :

"2. A sign that literally states "Religion is just myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds" does not have a place in a neutral, government-provided religious display. I'm not saying the Atheists aren't entitled to their opinion, but the other religious displays are mere decorations with no distinct message or proselytizing. What if instead of the nativity, the Christmas display were a simple banner stating "All non-believers are evil and deserve to burn in hell"?"

A nativity scene absolutely has a message, that being to celebrate the idea that if you believe that Jesus Christ was the son of God, sent to die for your sins, you will be rewarded with eternal paradise. And if you don't believe in this Iron Age myth of virgin birth and human sacrifice, you will be punished with eternal torture.

And so you can see why those of us who think that people's actions here on Earth are of more consequence than their loyalty to one imaginary being or another might not consider such a message to be appropriate for our government buildings.

Quote :

"3. There's no evangelism or dark-age morality to be conveyed by a Christmas display. Arguing about the factual basis of the bible is asinine. It's fucking religion."

The Bible may be ahistorical, but the labors of its adherents are plenty real.

[Edited on December 27, 2009 at 11:55 AM. Reason : ]

12/27/2009 11:55:00 AM

In the context of holiday decorations, it's not sober criticism, it's just mud-slinging.

Quote :

"A nativity scene absolutely has a message, that being to celebrate the idea that if you believe that Jesus Christ was the son of God, sent to die for your sins, you will be rewarded with eternal paradise. And if you don't believe in this Iron Age myth of virgin birth and human sacrifice, you will be punished with eternal torture. And so you can see why those of us who think that people's actions here on Earth are of more consequence than their loyalty to one imaginary being or another might not consider such a message to be appropriate for our government buildings."

As a complete agnostic with zero faith in any Christian divinity, here's what I see: a hay-baby surrounded by a multi-cultural assortment of adults, hanging with some farm animals. If I really try to interpret something from this mundane picture, I think it would be "Babies are cute, so let's all get along and look at a baby".

I don't see anything distinct about heaven, hell, sacrifice, or god. I am not compelled to confess my sins, fear damnation, hate gays or even protest abortions. I suppose it would have more significance for a Christian, but for me it has no distinct meaning. I'm certainly aware of Christianity's crazy, belief structure, but I'm not about to equate their quaint little holiday decoration with Dante's Inferno. There's just nothing there for anyone outside the faith.

Quote :

"The Bible may be ahistorical, but the labors of its adherents are plenty real"

I still don't know what your point is. What does this have to do with an assortment of government-arranged religious holiday decorations?

[Edited on December 27, 2009 at 2:41 PM. Reason : spelling]

12/27/2009 2:39:26 PM

Those decorations are not government arranged. Groups apply to place their religious symbols on the Capitol grounds--otherwise there wouldn't be a Festivus pole.

12/27/2009 6:28:08 PM

so, people applied to put up holiday decorations. What holiday were the atheist pricks celebrating? National Be An Asshole Day? i know, the winter solstice. But, I will note that no other display said "you guys are fucking idiots for no believing what we believe." Just a minor difference.

12/27/2009 6:46:39 PM

Quote :

"As a complete agnostic with zero faith in any Christian divinity, here's what I see: a hay-baby surrounded by a multi-cultural assortment of adults, hanging with some farm animals."

You're kidding yourself if you think the story of Christ can be separated from the message, and that message is all about salvation.

Quote :

"What holiday were the atheist pricks celebrating?"

It seems like they were celebrating the triumph of reason over superstition.

[Edited on December 27, 2009 at 7:27 PM. Reason : ]

12/27/2009 7:23:33 PM

Quote :

"What holiday were the atheist pricks celebrating?...i know, the winter solstice."

Why would atheists celebrate the Winter Solstice?

12/27/2009 7:44:51 PM

^^^It doesn't have to be a holiday decoration; it can be whatever they want (or you want if you feel so inclined to put one up). Even if you think the atheists are pricks, they're not the ones phisically damaging displays they disagree with.

[Edited on December 27, 2009 at 7:50 PM. Reason : ]

12/27/2009 7:48:36 PM

^^ I was wondering that myself, but still.

Quote :

"Even if you think the atheists are pricks, they're not the ones phisically damaging displays they disagree with."

No, but they are the only ones being dicks with what is actually in their display.

12/27/2009 8:43:54 PM

There are no rules against being a dick.

Not that the statement is particularly dick-ish anyways: "At the time of the winter solstice, let reason prevail. There are no gods, no devils, no angels, no heaven or hell. There is only our natural world. Religion is just myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds."

It is certainly no more dick-ish than the minister on TV14 talking about how selfish and self-centered atheists are.

12/28/2009 7:59:45 AM