seriously, how much more can Russia do before people start to say "this is fucking ridiculous?" They fucking bombed a major railway bridge that leads to the capitol, for crying out loud! All of this AFTER they signed a "cease-fire"...

8/16/2008 10:30:17 PM

we are doing about all we can right now in my opinion

8/16/2008 10:37:07 PM

well, your opinion doesn't count for much, given that you think UNC is a private school.

8/16/2008 10:39:40 PM

you think unc is a private school? wtf dude

8/16/2008 10:40:00 PM

I'm still trying to figure out what leg the USofFreedom is standing on on this subject.

8/17/2008 12:29:19 AM

hopefully its the "we cant really say shit" leg

8/17/2008 10:52:36 AM

No, more likely it is disuasion by example.

8/17/2008 11:20:20 AM

The United States has made major mistakes with Iraq, but we are still the strongest tribe. It is still our responsibility to do what must be done when there is no one else of righteous mind or capability to stop the evil which plagues all people in all nations. The epic failure of humanity does not mean that we cannot adapt and bring peace to war. Recently, our country's international credibility and reputation dramatically diminished by our own failings. This is true, but if we were to allow Russia to grip control of these people so easily like in the past, our well-earned values and enduring experiences as one great nation under one great hope, would suddenly mean nothing. Yes, what we did in Iraq is not completely different from what Russian is doing now. However, we were attacked first and after seeking UN Resolutions then decided to act unilaterally. We can be hypocrites, we all are, but we do not have the luxury to wait or hesitate, we must act if forced too. Russia will withdraw all of their forces as they promised. Do as we say, not as we do.

8/17/2008 12:04:40 PM

Quote :

"Unfortunately Russia The US has also shown itself for what it is -- a destabilizing force. There's no greater threat to the modern world than a regional Global bully that puts its own interests over those of individual states"

Quote :

"The message here is that if any of these border states act contrary to Russia's the US interests, then they will be ruthlessly crushed [u]have special forces dispose of their leaders, supply/train rebel factions to initiate a coup, or even directly overthrow the gov't with force at the first opportunity."

Not even counting Iraq. How many nations espicially during the cold war days
did we do similar actions. Espicially in Latin America. Often the
leaders we helped raise the power were not any more democratic or more civil rights aware.
Merely they were more US friendly and provided more economic opportunities for US
business at the expense of the average citizen in the other country. Iran's islamic
regime' came to power as a rebellion against the abuse of power
of the US backed shah that ruled before.

Quote :

"seriously, how much more can Russia do before people start to say "this is fucking ridiculous"

Last time I checked we are the United States of America, not United States of the World.
I am certain that a land hungry Russia is more of a threat to the EU and middle east
who should be dealing with this.

Quote :

"stop the evil which plagues all people in all nations."

Using scary words like EVIL helps motivate me to join the marines to go kill some
russians.

8/17/2008 6:07:14 PM

^^ we were "attacked first?" I don't recall Iraq ever attacking the US...

8/17/2008 6:37:02 PM

Pledging to Leave Georgia, Russia Tightens Its Grip

Quote :

"WASHINGTON — Even as Russia pledged to begin withdrawing its forces from neighboring Georgia on Monday, American officials said the Russian military had been moving launchers for short-range ballistic missiles into South Ossetia, a step that appeared intended to tighten its hold on the breakaway territory. The Russian military deployed several SS-21 missile launchers and supply vehicles to South Ossetia on Friday, according to American officials familiar with intelligence reports. From the new launching positions north of Tskhinvali, the South Ossetian capital, the missiles can reach much of Georgia, including Tbilisi, the capital. The Kremlin announced Sunday that Russia's president, Dmitri A. Medvedev, had promised to begin the troop withdrawal in a conversation with President Nicolas Sarkozy of France, who negotiated a six-point cease-fire agreement. Mr. Medvedev did not specify the pace or scope of the withdrawal, saying only that troops would withdraw to South Ossetia and a so-called security zone on its periphery. The United States and European leaders reacted with wariness, and Russia's recent military moves appeared to add an element of frustration."

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/18/world/europe/18georgia.html?_r=1

The goddamned Ruskies have gone off the reservation--again.

8/18/2008 5:49:56 AM

The United States had very different circumstances leading into our huge miscalculation. For example, an enormous loss of life within our Homeland orchestrated with military precision by elusive entities. Russia does not have a leg to stand on in regards to that.

8/18/2008 7:39:28 AM

Don't you remember? Russia invaded because its passport carying people were under attack.

8/18/2008 9:27:32 AM

i wonder how the average russian feels about this whole thing and how the average russian views the USA

8/18/2008 9:42:09 AM

Quote :

"However, we were attacked first and after seeking UN Resolutions then decided to act unilaterally. We can be hypocrites, we all are, but we do not have the luxury to wait or hesitate, we must act if forced too. Russia will withdraw all of their forces as they promised. Do as we say, not as we do."

I don't want to resort to name calling, but your repeated comments really make me want to bang my head against my desk. We were not attacked first by Iraq or anyone associated with Iraq. Russia had people who considered themselves to be citizens of Russia under attack by a larger force who wanted to put an end to their autonomous rule of their region.

People are correct when they say that this situation is nothing like Iraq, because Russia actually has more ground (not talking about that which they took over either) to stand on in this situation. We decided to be opportunistic on nationalistic fervor and parlay that into a blank check for attacking a sovereign nation. One cannot justifiably defend the invasion of Iraq given the information we have. The only way one could do so would be out of complete ignorance or complete bias.

8/18/2008 10:29:15 AM

Georgia got hardcore hacked by the Russians. We would be vulnerable to the same sort of attack:

http://www.newsfactor.com/news/U-S--Not-Ready-for-Computer-Attacks/story.xhtml?story_id=0330014YR8UX

In short, you'll know World War III is here when you can't access TWW.

8/18/2008 10:47:57 AM

There were so many things wrong with Iraq pre-invasion that even if we were incorrect on all but one thing, we would still be more justified in our invasion than Russia is in theirs. And we were correct on more than one thing.

But ALL of the parallels are just American anti-fans throwing a red herring.

To use the standard democrat talking point. What does Iraq Georgia have to do with Bin Laden Iraq?

8/18/2008 10:52:00 AM

Quote :

"we would still be more justified in our invasion than Russia is in theirs"

something tells me this guy is serious...i agree with ^^^ 100%

8/18/2008 10:56:08 AM

Something tells me you like to talk to people in the third person.

8/18/2008 11:02:33 AM

Quote :

"I don't want to resort to name calling, but your repeated comments really make me want to bang my head against my desk. We were not attacked first by Iraq or anyone associated with Iraq."

Yes, I know...

Quote :

""However, we were attacked first and after seeking UN Resolutions then decided to act unilaterally. We can be hypocrites, we all are, but we do not have the luxury to wait or hesitate, we must act if forced too. Russia will withdraw all of their forces as they promised. Do as we say, not as we do.""

This merely explains the process that led us into our massive mistake, it does not justify anything at all. We were attacked, we were scared stupid and acted incorrectly, and now we are paying the price. I never mentioned that Iraq is linked to 9/11, I did explain how we arrived at that false assumption.

Did Russia lose 3,000 citizens on national television as their skyline was crumbling into ashes?

No. There is no comparison.

They will withdraw.

[Edited on August 18, 2008 at 11:16 AM. Reason : -]

8/18/2008 11:09:25 AM

BTW, not to say the Iraq wasn't an incorrect course of action. I'm just talking about justification.

8/18/2008 11:17:01 AM

Quote :

"Did Russia lose 3,000 citizens on national television as their skyline was crumbling into ashes?"

Well, Russia claimed the Georgians killed 2,000 civilians in South Ossetia.

8/18/2008 11:31:06 AM

Russia has has several terrorist incidents in the past decade

8/18/2008 11:38:46 AM

Quote :

"Did Russia lose 3,000 citizens on national television as their skyline was crumbling into ashes? No. There is no comparison. They will withdraw."

That statement has no relevance to anything. Losing citizens on national television does not add justification to our actions, nor is it a necessary requirement to respond in the fashion which Russia did. Using such a statement to imply that our nation's actions were more morally and ethically sound than Russia's is neither valid nor sound. The point you're poorly attempting to make in that quote only champions MrNiceGuy7's point when he says that we used the ignorance brought about by nationalistic fervor to go in and attack unabated and unquestioned. In the future when attempting to discredit someone, or disprove them, perhaps you should not make their point.

I'll say this, while niceguy's argument was composed to tu quoque, it doesn't make his point incorrect, merely poor formed.

perhaps i'll be able to address the point in a way so that reason can reach you. i'll be sure to keep it simple so that you won't get hung up on a single point and simply address that.



Lets start with the simple and evident TRUTH. We were not justified in going into Iraq based on anything that happened to us. Iraq had not attacked us, hell, afghanistan had not attacked us but they had harbored people who did and that is the only reason why we began our incursion there at all. Given that Iraq had not attacked us what justification did we have to invade a sovereign nation just as Russia did with Georgia? One could say that Saddam was a horrible despot and that the ends justified the means. Perhaps this is true, albeit not what you mentioned. Regardless, Georgia was killing people who were in autonomy and claimed Russian citizenship. While it was not the three thousand people killed in one swift day, what does that matter? Where do you get a number to decide what amount of lives lost constitute an invasion? How is that number established and who decides it? there is no way that it could be done with consistency so the only manner in which such an invasion could be justified would be based on the moral and ethical grounds in which it was done. given that Georgia was attacking and killing people who claimed actual russian citizenship, whereas that never happened with the united states it could easily be stated that Russia had more moral and ethical standing guiding their invasion than we did of Iraq and proving their actions to be more justifiably sound. Without slating the US as right or wrong in their invasion of Iraq it is clear that their invasion of a sovereign nation was performed without the solid standing of that as Russia and the only way in which there is no comparison is within the lacking validation in which the US went into Iraq.

Q.E.D.

[Edited on August 18, 2008 at 12:14 PM. Reason : stuff]

8/18/2008 12:08:56 PM

I'm not going to enter a discussion about fairness, because it won't stop The United States and therefore matters little. Mark my words, the United States will make Russia withdraw their forces.

8/18/2008 12:41:30 PM

Quote :

"Regardless, Georgia was killing people who were in autonomy and claimed Russian citizenship. While it was not the three thousand people killed in one swift day, what does that matter? Where do you get a number to decide what amount of lives lost constitute an invasion?"

People who were attacking them, who were attacking Georgians living in the region whose families had lived their for centuries. You can't seriously be calling parallels to America/Iraq and Russia/Georgia when you have no clue about the history of the region or this conflict.

Look, Iraq was a mistake for the US for a number of reasons, mainly it didn't help our strategic situation in the region, or the world for that matter. But the moral justification for Iraq is far greater than anything the Russians have done. Kurds, Shiites, and Marsh Arabs were brutalized, murdered, raped, gased, etc. And if you were not part of the right group in Iraq you had no hope. That has changed now, and at least the Iraqi people have a chance for a degree of freedom from persecution and liberty.

You can not justify what Russia has done, and continues to do, in Georgia and have any moral credibility. Especially so if you opposed the war in Iraq, you should even more so oppose Russia in Georgia.

This thread is pretty sickening with all the *rabble rabble* America is just as bad *rabble rabble*.

8/18/2008 12:44:05 PM

i am probably more patriotic than most people you have ever met. disagreeing with the actions of your country by no means makes you someone who is unpatriotic or someone who is part of the america is so evil crowd. stop thinking in black and white and realize that there is much ground in between. not acknowledging the TRUTH, good or bad, makes you just as ignorant. In fact I never said that Iraq was the wrong course of action, and merely stated that Russia has more cause to do its deeds than we did invading Iraq. reading comprehension, do you have it?

Quote :

"People who were attacking them, who were attacking Georgians living in the region whose families had lived their for centuries. You can't seriously be calling parallels to America/Iraq and Russia/Georgia when you have no clue about the history of the region or this conflict. "

Georgia and these people had been shelling back and forth for ages, so saying people who were attacking them is argumentatively weak. Your comments about "families living in the region for centuries" would be justification for condemning israel in any situation against the Palestinians. reflect upon that for a moment. Mind you, that isn't something that i would entirely disagree with either, but I want to make sure you are aware of this note so that you can attempt to remain internally morally consistent. Regardless when both parties have been shelling back and forth the issue becomes all but moot, the people in these provinces had not begun to shell randomly and attack people out of the blue, this is a battle that had be ensuing for some time now. This region has had autonomous rule from Georgia since the end of the soviet union and this conflict has been essentially taking place since that time. Clearly, a new act of war wasn't instigated upon georgia and they could have responded in many ways; however, the one they chose was through military action which resulted in killings of the majority population of the region, which aligns themselves with Russia. Please point out, in specifics, how Russia's defense of these people is less justifiable than our involvement in Iraq. For bonus points, please point out, again in specifics, how Iraq is more so justifiable. As far as I can tell your argument consists of ''Saddam was a bad man, who did bad things, so its up to us to police the world and make things right. If other people are in the world doing bad things, its for us to decide if its really bad and if so we'll invade. Other countries better not decide for themselves whats morally reprehensible and act on it, that is our job." Does that about sum it up?

8/18/2008 1:21:16 PM

So let me get this straight.

Goergia pisses of Russia.

Russia lays its big, hairy bear cock on Goergia's rather small jew-like dome, thumps it twice

and the world is supposed to care?

All Saakachvili had to do was look at the most recent Russian census to realize his plan had big fucking flaw.

8/18/2008 6:07:36 PM

Quote :

"So let me get this straight. Goergia pisses of Russia. Russia lays its big, hairy bear cock on Goergia's rather small jew-like dome, thumps it twice"

That's not quite accurate. More like Russia maneuvers carefully to corner Georgia and then baits them. The Georgians take the bait, giving the Russians an excuse to thump the Georgians and show just how big their "big, hairy bear cock" is to the rest of the world after being cuckolded for the last two decades by the West and its former territories and satellites who've spurned them.

No, the Russians were ready for this. The speed by which they marched into Georgia and smashed their forces indicate that they were already deployed and on a hair trigger. The Georgians were just not clever enough to figure a way out of the trap.

8/19/2008 1:21:09 AM

^there is nothing in the above which i can disagree.

8/19/2008 2:14:29 AM

Russia Seems to Be Hunkering Down in Georgia

Quote :

"GORI, Georgia — Russia claimed that it had begun withdrawing its troops from Georgia on Monday, but there was little evidence of it on the ground: Russian soldiers continued digging in to positions along the highway approaching the capital, Tbilisi, showing no sign of pulling back from the severest confrontation between Russia and the West since the collapse of the Soviet Union."

Quote :

"The Russian commander climbed off his tank and began arguing with the Georgian police officers. He said he had orders to move up the road; a Georgian officer said he had orders to remain on the road, and asked to call his superiors for guidance. The Russian said, 'You have three minutes to move your cars.' The two argued for a few minutes more. Then the police officers stepped away from their cars, stone-faced, with their keys. The tank smashed aside the cars and kept going."

Quote :

"Through the day, armored personnel carriers and fuel trucks rolled both ways along the highway, toward Tbilisi and back again, with no apparent purpose."

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/19/world/europe/19georgia.html?pagewanted=1

Fuck the Ruskies.

8/19/2008 5:42:36 AM

Reports that Russia is pushing towards the Southwest and Northwest?

Sounds like they are in Borjomi now, if they push another 25 miles Southwest they will reach Akhaltsikhe near the Turkish border and cut off all access between West and East Georgia.

Just west of Akhaltsike is the province of Ajara (on the Black sea) which has had disputed control in the past by local groups supported by Russia. My guess is that "Ajara" will "request" Russian support.

At that point you'd have the remaining 40 miles of Georgia's Black Sea coastline pincered between Abkhazia and Ajara. Russia has already blockaded Poti, Georgia's main port in that 40 mile section.

We'll see how far Russia takes it...

8/19/2008 12:49:16 PM

so not to sound "ignorant"...but why cant the US just send a couple jets in and bomb their tanks...i think that would be awesome...probably would make them more likely to go back to Russia...i mean i'm not talking about "going to war" with russia, just saying like "give them a hint" that we want them to leave...kinda like an owner punishing a dog that was misbehaving

8/19/2008 12:56:40 PM

I would imagine that Russia would view bombing their tanks as a declaration of war.

Its not like these are some third parties tanks in a proxy war.

8/19/2008 1:00:00 PM

Quote :

"so not to sound 'ignorant'...but why cant the US just send a couple jets in and bomb their tanks"

Quote :

"i mean i'm not talking about 'going to war' with russia, just saying like 'give them a hint' that we want them to leave"

Sweet Jesus.

8/19/2008 1:07:42 PM

Quote :

"so not to sound "ignorant"...but why cant the US just send a couple jets in and bomb their tanks...i think that would be awesome...probably would make them more likely to go back to Russia...i mean i'm not talking about "going to war" with russia, just saying like "give them a hint" that we want them to leave...kinda like an owner punishing a dog that was misbehaving"

This might work for some smaller countries, but Russia is one of those few nations that actually has the capacity to directly challenge the United States Air Force, especially in a place like Georgia which even prior to the Iraq War would have been a real stretch of our supply lines.

Especially right there next to the Russian border where they could easily flood the skies with short-range interceptors like the MiG-29s as well as more sophisticated air superiority fighters like Su-27s. These aren't the cheap export versions either, but the top-shelf best that the Russians have to offer. Toss in a highly sophisticated air defense network that I'm sure the Russian military is setting up at this time, and trying to run air strikes against Russian military units would probably not be nearly as effective.

Also, I don't think the aircraft we'd have available would be the most effective. If you really want to eat those Russian tanks for breakfast, you'd first need to establish air superiority, a rather tricky thing for the reasons mentioned above, and then bring in heavy tank killers like A-10s and AH-64s. The logistics trail required for those aircraft would just not be possible to build up and sustain at this point...

Plus, it may provoke the Russians to respond even more aggressively, and there's no way we can position the number of forces we'd need to battle the Russians in a place like Georgia.

8/19/2008 1:12:41 PM

well thats messed up...i dont really care what the russians do...but if the US is gonna get all pissy, we need to do something

8/19/2008 2:37:21 PM

Quote :

" This might work for some smaller countries, but Russia is one of those few nations that actually has the capacity to directly challenge the United States Air Force, especially in a place like Georgia which even prior to the Iraq War would have been a real stretch of our supply lines. Especially right there next to the Russian border where they could easily flood the skies with short-range interceptors like the MiG-29s as well as more sophisticated air superiority fighters like Su-27s. These aren't the cheap export versions either, but the top-shelf best that the Russians have to offer. Toss in a highly sophisticated air defense network that I'm sure the Russian military is setting up at this time, and trying to run air strikes against Russian military units would probably not be nearly as effective."

Eh. this isn't entirely true. If this escalated by Russia going even farther, I could see Turkey allowing the use of it's airspace/bases. Not to mention we have several air force bases in Turkey itself.

Russian air defense would be brutal to be sure though. However, their air force and air defense technology is, well, an unknown variable. They boast and brag about their technology, and to be sure they have produce some good airframes over the years, their technology usually turns out to be far less advanced than they would have others believe. Example: The T-80 was feared in the West for the longest time, and it turned out to be completely inadequate compared to Western tanks of the time.

Oddly, Turkey and Georgia have been working fairly closely together in the past decade. With joint exercises and some limited training of Georgians by Turkey.


And Russia has not only blockaded Poti, but have sent in "peacekeepers" as well to "prevent looting". Of course, this city is no where near Ossetia.

8/19/2008 5:40:21 PM

McCain pulls into a tie in new polling
Analysts cite Georgia response
August 18, 2008

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/aug/18/mccain-pulls-into-a-tie-in-new-polling

8/19/2008 5:58:36 PM

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2008/president/us/general_election_mccain_vs_obama-225.html

8/19/2008 6:02:22 PM

Quote :

"The speed by which they marched into Georgia and smashed their forces indicate that they were already deployed and on a hair trigger. The Georgians were just not clever enough to figure a way out of the trap."

Hmm yes I'm sure the Georgians didn't notice that huge army deploying on its border for months and running 'military exercises.'

I find it awfully ironic that a forum who usually responds to dumb people getting their justly deserved with 'well they asked for it' suddenly getting weak kneed and bothered over the plight of the poor Georgian people.

8/19/2008 6:08:48 PM

^ I'm in favor of any alternative to the typical TWW response.

8/19/2008 6:24:22 PM

The typical TWW IS the best alternative currently, actually.

Immediate saber rattling is a stupid attempt at covering up the fact that the US and the West has overlooked Russia the past five years.

A better response would be to let the Georgians suffer in the piss they created for themselves and hasten the integration of Ukraine into NATO.

8/19/2008 6:29:44 PM

eh...Georgia has significant strategic importance to the U.S. b/c of Natural Gas.

If Russia wants to be aggressive about it, it seems like their scenario is to completely control the western seaboard of Georgia, and do 'something' with Armenia for the direct link to Iran and their enormous natural gas reserves.

In fact, Iran and Russia control nearly half of the world's natural gas reserves:

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0872966.html

8/19/2008 9:01:43 PM

Quote :

"A better response would be to let the Georgians suffer in the piss they created for themselves and hasten the integration of Ukraine into NATO."

Quote :

"A better response would be to let the Georgians suffer in the piss they created for themselves and hasten the integration of Ukraine into NATO."

Quote :

"A better response would be to let the Georgians suffer in the piss they created for themselves and hasten the integration of Ukraine into NATO."

NO WE ARE USA #1 IF WE SAY RUSSIA GTFO oF GEORIGIA THEY BETTER LISTEN OR ELSE....

8/19/2008 9:13:02 PM

i dont know who said the quote in that post^, but i def agree with it

8/20/2008 1:23:37 AM

Rice signs missile defense deal with Poland

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080820/D92LUR4G0.html

8/20/2008 9:34:03 AM

8/20/2008 9:39:54 AM

^ Dear God...

8/20/2008 10:32:43 AM

seriously...i wonder how america is gonna be when i'm like 40

8/20/2008 11:19:52 AM