5

3/25/2009 12:35:54 AM

Quote :

"Whether or not there are analogies out there that are more relevant to mine doesn't mean that mine isn't relevant -- it is both relevant and apt. "

It is because you're talking about something from over a hundred years ago with a completely different set of circumstances and societies. But here, if you want to make the analogy somewhat relevant, let's go with this:

A) Smoking cigarettes is an act that has an increasingly negative view in society. Certain places begin to ban smoking. Person A says that smoking should be banned everywhere for the greater good of society. Person B says that the government shouldn't tell him what he can and cannot allow in his establishment.

B) Rewind to the 1800s. Slavery is an act that has an increasingly negative view in society. Certain places begin to ban slavery. Person A says that slavery should be banned everywhere for the greater good of society. Person B says that the government shouldn't tell him what he can and cannot do with his property.

[Edited on March 25, 2009 at 12:43 AM. Reason : .]

3/25/2009 12:42:04 AM

i didn't even think about juxtaposing it with slavery. that's a very good argument.

3/25/2009 12:42:59 AM

Personally I think it's a pretty terrible argument. The enslavement of people is a completely different class from the smoking of cigarettes. It's akin to Godwin's Law

3/25/2009 12:44:44 AM

Quote :

"you dumb fucks don't fucking tell me how to run my restaurant. if i thought allowing smoking would hurt my business, do you think i'd still allow smoking in the bar? hell no. so the smoke bothers you? well, nobody put a gun to your head and forced you to eat there, now did they?"

/thread

3/25/2009 1:06:16 AM

Quote :

"I didn't even think about juxtaposing it with slavery. that's a very good argument"

Quote :

"Personally I think it's a pretty terrible argument. The enslavement of people is a completely different class from the smoking of cigarettes. It's akin to Godwin's Law"

Actually, juxtaposition, while all-too-often confused with argument, is actually a mere irrelevant instance in the world of logic. While it may be true that some, even many, will be blind to the logical substance of an assertion, and instead misinterpret the innocent juxtaposition of ideas presented in that simple construct of an 8th-grade level analogy (oh wait, I forgot. We shamefully abandoned analogies on the SAT because.... that's right.... the average american public school student is too fucking dumb to understand them....,) it's certainly not, and should never be consider an actual argument. Of course... your suggesting that it should is also lacking the substance that would qualify it as having any real meaning.

Quote :

"with a completely different set of circumstances and societies."

That's what makes analogies great -- that stuff is completely irrelevant. You, and others may continue to incorrectly suggest that such considerations have ANYTHING to do with the analogy logically, but in reality, the only thing they have to do with is popular ignorance. You are appealing to an illogical yet popular idea. Logic will prevail. And besides, you can use the same objects to make a different analogy, but that doesn't take ANYTHING away from the one I made. The objects used are pawns. The relationships are what matters. You've just taken the objects and presented a different analogy, with different relationships. My point still stands. Your point has nothing to do with anything we've been talking about. Please. Please understand analogies before you respond again. My analogy is completely apt and relevant. Yours isn't. You are making a different distinction -- for one, my analogy has nothing to do with what is considered property. You are making a completely different and irrelevant analogy. Go to sleep. Wake up. Show this thread to your teacher friends. They will tell you all about analogies and how you've missed the point here.

3/25/2009 1:08:43 AM

Quote :

"I want this to pass just to see Willy Nilly spontaneously combust"

3/25/2009 8:05:05 AM

^^ lulz

3/25/2009 8:10:38 AM

I bartended for a couple years before graduating and the smoke never bothered me. North Carolina legislators are turning into a bunch of pussies.

3/25/2009 8:14:08 AM

I bartend part-time now and the bar I work in gets nasty even on a slow night. The owner seriously needs to fix his ventilation system

3/25/2009 8:16:37 AM

Quote :

"Bottom line for me is: I don't like my hair and clothes smelling like ass, but I put up with it if the bar I happen to go to allows smoking. If everywhere bans smoking inside, then my clothes and hair will not end up smelling like ass... so that is better for me. I don't give a shit about the health aspect."

that's pretty much my opinion too. no matter how they try to hide it, smokers smell like shit. they're worse then the indians that ride the wolfline...they just don't realize it because they are always around the and their sense of smell sucks from smoking.

[Edited on March 25, 2009 at 8:28 AM. Reason : d]

3/25/2009 8:27:33 AM

Quote :

"North Carolina legislators are turning into a bunch of pussies."

3/25/2009 8:49:49 AM

i like this. b/c while i can chose what bars i want to go to and could chose not to go to a bar that allows smoking, our friends would end up getting pretty annoyed of us not coming out. cause damn, there's so many people smoking that even my fucking PHONE smells like smoke for the next 2 days

yes i'm talking about YOU Bada!!

i can't even count how many times I've said "let's watch the game at PRs" (non smoking section) and have gotten little to no interest from the smokers camp (*cough* saps852 *cough*)

3/25/2009 9:06:12 AM

you never invite me to PR's for the game....

I think if ya did invite other smokers like myself, and we agreed, smokers like saps would probably come along


I just go to the places I go to because no one brings up better ideas (hell, even I try to break the monotony and suggest off the wall ideas...)

3/25/2009 9:20:39 AM

So what's next on the "tell business owners how to run their business" agenda?

No more items with trans fat on the menus? No more loud music in bars because it permanently damages your ears? Force Chick-Fil-A to be open on Sunday?

3/25/2009 9:32:26 AM

^you want to eat trans fat you stupid asshole?

3/25/2009 9:37:11 AM

^^^you're prolly right...i think those convos usually only go between us and saps, and we never even make it so far as asking others

his usual response is, "is anyone else going? cause if another smoker goes then cool...i just don't like walking to the smoking section by myself and smoking alone."
and then we say, "we haven't talked to anyone else yet."
then he responds, "well brett is going to Bada."
then it's "fine we'll go to fucking Bada..."

so i think we can all blame saps here

[Edited on March 25, 2009 at 9:38 AM. Reason : ]

3/25/2009 9:37:33 AM

^^ nope, but I want others to be able to.

3/25/2009 9:39:49 AM

Quote :

"People can choose whether or not to go into a bar with smoking. To pass this off as protecting the public is fucking stupid."

even as a non-smoker and as one who dislikes second hand smoke i agree with this. non-smokers know perfectly well that going into a pool hall (unless it has no smoking signs) or a bar (ditto) that you're gonna pick up some second hand smoke....

i don't see it as much of a health risk unless you're there for hours every night/week....

though i do think more bars should be smoke free just to have that option...

Quote :

"It is because you're talking about something from over a hundred years ago with a completely different set of circumstances and societies. But here, if you want to make the analogy somewhat relevant, let's go with this: A) Smoking cigarettes is an act that has an increasingly negative view in society. Certain places begin to ban smoking. Person A says that smoking should be banned everywhere for the greater good of society. Person B says that the government shouldn't tell him what he can and cannot allow in his establishment. B) Rewind to the 1800s. Slavery is an act that has an increasingly negative view in society. Certain places begin to ban slavery. Person A says that slavery should be banned everywhere for the greater good of society. Person B says that the government shouldn't tell him what he can and cannot do with his property."

you're a dolt, these two "examples" refer to completely different things, one you do to yourself that has a side effect on others in your immediate surroundings. the other you actively inflict upon someone else, unless you're one of those raciest bigots that thinks negros are not people.

[Edited on March 25, 2009 at 9:46 AM. Reason : dolt]

3/25/2009 9:43:30 AM

as an aside, i have less of a problem with hand-rolled "real" cigarettes than the chemical-laden commercial ones...i suspect the direct inhalation of chemicals and filter particulates from commercial cigarettes are worse than the direct inhalation of tobacco and paper ash from hand-rolled ones...neither smells GOOD, but the commercial ones smell way worse and DEFINITELY contain more carcinogens

the smoke smell is ever-present, whether you're smoking cigarettes, pot, whatever...it's the nature of the beast

3/25/2009 9:53:14 AM

Quote :

"so i think we can all blame saps here "

aint that tha truff

3/25/2009 9:53:23 AM

can we shut down Kabuto and Nakato japanese steakhouses? They don't allow smoking, but the smoke from cooking always makes your hair and clothes smell like shit. It would be in the best interest of everyone to ban open floor cooking at benihana style restaurants.

3/25/2009 10:08:57 AM

That would be great! I really hate those places because my friends always want to go but I hate my clothes smelling like nasty smoke from cooking for days

3/25/2009 10:10:36 AM

^
^^
lol... exactly.
Also garages. Mechanics are forced to breathe unhealthy air. All commercial garages should be banned from running car engines.

3/25/2009 10:12:07 AM

your impression of me is off...i didn't put a frowny face

3/25/2009 10:28:24 AM

it was actually more of a general impression, not aimed at you. Half the time I don't even read usernames on TWW unless I address someone in my post.

3/25/2009 10:33:38 AM

me thinks i need to put "/sarcasm" at the end of all my posts

3/25/2009 10:35:52 AM

penis

3/25/2009 10:37:35 AM

on "How it's Made" on the discovery channel they did a segment on cigarettes, a large % of what's in a cigarette isn't "tobacco" but "reconstituted tobacco", basically all the extra bits of the tobacco leaf get ground up and turned into a form of paper, which is then hosed down with chemicals, additives, and nicotine before it's shredded up and put in with actual tobacco in the cigarette.

3/25/2009 10:39:31 AM

here's a new book by a couple of smart dudes



http://www.amazon.com/Chemical-Components-Tobacco-Smoke/dp/1420078836/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1237993794&sr=1-1

[Edited on March 25, 2009 at 11:11 AM. Reason : only $299.95!]

3/25/2009 11:11:10 AM

^^so would that mean that hand rolled tobacco is better for you?

3/25/2009 11:34:41 AM

^ i would assume that yes, rolled tobacco is not as bad for you as commercially-packed, even after factoring in the residual chemical pest/insecticides

3/25/2009 11:36:19 AM

Quote :

"No more loud music in bars because it permanently damages your ears? "

now this is a law i could get behind


also...for everybody in the "hand rolled" court...just because it's loose tobacco does not mean it isn't heavily processed...all commercial (read RETAILED) tobacco (in whatever form it comes in...ie, cigarettes, cigars, snuff, chewing tobacco) has to be heavily processed to keep it from making you very sick WHILE consuming it instead of a resulted health hazard due to years of consumption...

the natural concentration of nicotine in tobacco is so high that it will make you very ill if consumed directly without first being processed....it's so potent that in it's green, uncured form, most people that work in tobacco will get something called "mean green" which comes from the nicotine being absorbs into their skin and they puke their guts out....it's basically nicotine poisoning...but comparable to puking from drinking too much...

don't believe every scientific study you read on the harms of processed tobacco (cigarettes mainly) as compared to other forms...it can sorta be compared to non-pasteurization of milk...in it's raw form it's still much worse for you than it is in it's processed form...

i'm not saying it's a good thing...smoking isn't healthy...i'm not a smoker and i don't like smoke...but i am a product of years on a tobacco farm so i have a pretty good idea of what i'm talking about...

i hate smelling like a dirty ashtray when i come home from the bar....but it's not the governments job to tell my friends they can't smoke when we go out


as a side bar: any legislator from Davidson County that is trying to put any sort of restriction on anything related to tobacco is a fucking hypocritical asshole....in much the same way that Bev Perdue is a hypocritical asshole for raising the tobacco tax...

[Edited on March 25, 2009 at 12:19 PM. Reason : asdf]

3/25/2009 12:13:58 PM

we are also considering selling liquor on sundays.


we are truly a blue state.

3/25/2009 12:18:38 PM

Quote :

"we are also considering selling liquor on sundays"

That'd be nice.

3/25/2009 12:20:25 PM

no liquor sales on sunday is a pretty outdated law...even on the morality front...and i'm saying this as one of those backwards, hated conservative Christians...

if you can buy beer and be served liquor on sunday then it's stupid not to be able to buy liquor...

the only thing the current law does is increase liquor sales on saturday night or beer sales and restaurant/bar business after 12:00 on sunday...


it's not doing anything to respect the sacredness of the Lord's day or whatever it's initial intention was...people are going to drink if they want to drink

[Edited on March 25, 2009 at 12:26 PM. Reason : asdf]

3/25/2009 12:24:38 PM

Quote :

"if you can buy beer and be served liquor on sunday"

you have to wait until after 12pm to buy beer on sundays

that just means if you're planning on tailgating for a 1pm panthers game, buy your shit the night before

3/25/2009 12:36:01 PM

dude....didn't i say that

3/25/2009 12:37:00 PM

oh yeah i guess you did

3/25/2009 12:39:47 PM

Maybe the law should be amended for the State to subsidize nicotine patches.

3/25/2009 12:40:58 PM

one can only hope they do that one day

3/25/2009 12:42:57 PM

One of the leading tobaccy states subsidizing nicotine patches?

Haha?

or

HAHA!

3/25/2009 12:44:08 PM

Quote :

"i suspect the direct inhalation of chemicals and filter particulates from commercial cigarettes are worse than the direct inhalation of tobacco and paper ash from hand-rolled ones"

Hi, my name is Quag and I never have any idea of what I'm talking about.

3/25/2009 12:47:34 PM

Quote :

"Personally I think it's a pretty terrible argument. The enslavement of people is a completely different class from the smoking of cigarettes. It's akin to Godwin's Law"

Quote :

"Bottom line for me is: I don't like my hair and clothes smelling like ass, but I put up with it if the bar I happen to go to allows smoking. If everywhere bans smoking inside, then my clothes and hair will not end up smelling like ass... so that is better for me."

No, the actual bottom line is you don't give a fuck about rights as long as you can be a little more comfortable. You'll trample all over the property owners rights just so you can smell a bit better. That is such bullshit, I can't believe you would choose that over standing up for principles and freedom. The founding fathers and everyone who died in the Revolutionary War are rolling over in their graves because people like you exist.

[Edited on March 25, 2009 at 12:51 PM. Reason : ,]

3/25/2009 12:48:40 PM

Quote :

"we are also considering selling liquor on sundays. we are truly a blue state."

The irony here is that North Carolina has relatively liberal alcohol laws compared to the Northeast. I remember when I lived in Massachusetts, you couldn't buy ANY alcoholic beverage at the Stop 'n Shop; you had to go to their equivalent of an ABC store just to buy a six pack of beer. Red Missouri on the other hand let me buy a fifth of vodka on a Sunday morning from my local Dierbergs.

3/25/2009 12:53:46 PM

^^ Outed as a Libertarian!

Well folks, we'll have to get rid of health codes, building codes, vehicle inspections, registrations, basically anything that can prevent anyone running a business or otherwise from doing whatever the fuck they want.

GREAT.

3/25/2009 12:57:11 PM

^^but if it's like most states that have the spirits stores then there were probably 3 on every block instead of just 1 or 2 in a town....

[Edited on March 25, 2009 at 12:58 PM. Reason : sadf]

3/25/2009 12:58:12 PM

Haha, smokers are so funny in this thread. You pay money to hurt yourself, then attempt to present a valid argument for whatever reason. Clearly this is impossible, according to common logic.

3/25/2009 1:00:21 PM

^
dumb

3/25/2009 1:03:01 PM

Quote :

"that just means if you're planning on tailgating for a 1pm panthers game, buy your shit the night before"

speaking of...I didn't know until today that the panthers applied for and received special permission to begin beer sales @ 11:00 am on sunday game days

3/25/2009 1:22:22 PM