I'd rather do nothing than do much of anything the democrat supported bills entail.

1/20/2010 2:10:10 PM

Quote :

"A totally misleading assertion. According to the studies, the current health-care reform bill is unpopular, not health-care reform in general. Destroyer you are really eroding your credibility by allowing this."

Yeah, I thought about that. I agree that the current reform bill is unpopular, but not necessarily reform in general. The article probably should have worded it that way. I think the point remains, though. If "reform" means forcing people to buy insurance, having a single payer system (which would undoubtedly turn into another Social Security/Medicare), or any other half-baked plans that the politicians have come up with, I don't think that kind of reform is popular.

1/20/2010 2:23:56 PM

If you cannot see that that is an unacceptable conclusion to arrive at, your party has no hope of retaking Washington in the foreseeable future. You must compromise.

1/20/2010 2:25:18 PM

^ What is your party?

1/20/2010 2:25:59 PM

Are you asking me what I am registered as?

1/20/2010 2:35:56 PM

Quote :

"Scott Brown said he expects to be seated quickly in the U.S. Senate, but he was conciliatory on the question of what he will do there, noting that he voted for universal health insurance coverage in Massachusetts and wanted his election to encourage a new bipartisanship in Washington. "We're past campaign mode: I think it's important for everyone to get some form of health care," Brown told a news conference Wednesday morning. "So to offer a basic plan for everybody I think is important. It's just a question of whether we're going to raise taxes, we're going to cut a half at trillion from Medicare, we're going to affect veterans' care. I think we can do it better." "

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/01/20/AR2010012002822.html

1/20/2010 2:55:07 PM

This may turn out to be hilarious.

1/20/2010 5:15:53 PM

hahaha yea... hilarious for us because you're getting your hopes up again

1/20/2010 5:23:33 PM

Quote :

"I just stand back and shake my head at both of them... Partisans man... I never could get into the cult mentality."

Guess who said this.

1/20/2010 5:29:34 PM

Quote :

""We have 98 percent of our people insured here," he said at another point. "We know what we need to fix it." "

It looks like Brown is very on board with a mandatory healthcare requirement on the national level, he just doesn't like the pork for Nebraska in the bill, or the costs to mass. which already has health coverage, which are both very reasonable bones to pick.

1/20/2010 5:30:58 PM

Quote :

"This is the problem with having healthcare connected to employment. It's connected to employment because of government subsidies. I know you're just going to ignore this, and convince yourself that it isn't the problem, but it really is. If the government just let people purchase their own health insurance, with their own wages, on a tax free basis, we'd be a lot better off because losing your job wouldn't mean losing your insurance. This is a crucial issue that is being ignored by most people."

The problem is that when the average person loses their job, they can't afford health insurance. Feeding yourself/family is going to come before an expense that you probably aren't going to really use.

Most (all?) people have the option to continue their health insurance after they are fired, it's just the unsubsidized cost is shocking, for one, and often too much to just start paying for. For people who can't afford unsubsidized coverage, that's where the minimum standard plan being called for comes in.

1/20/2010 5:37:07 PM

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34953876/ns/politics-health_care_reform/

"Obama urges pared-back health care bill
Obama urges lawmakers not to try to jam a bill through Congress"

Quote :

"Obama urged lawmakers not to try to jam a bill through, but scale the proposal down to what he called "those elements of the package that people agree on." "We know that we need insurance reform, that the health insurance companies are taking advantage of people," the president said in an interview with ABC News. "We know that we have to have some form of cost containment because if we don't then our budgets are going to blow up. And we know that small businesses are going to need help." "

It seems the President got the message and is trying to scale back the effort & wait until Brown is seated. So now will the right praise him for doing what they consider to be the right thing, or will they still oppose trying to make him a failure at all costs threatening to filibuster everything just to win more elections?

1/20/2010 5:45:30 PM

Quote :

"So now will the right praise him for doing what they consider to be the right thing"

You're presuming that incrementally less ambitious health care legislation is all the GOP has been asking for. This bill is a colossial goat-fuck and deserves the same treatment a goat head does in a game of Buzkashi.

1/20/2010 5:47:59 PM

What do you think? Of course they'll continue to stall and threaten. That's good politics, and in this case actually more in line with what they feel is ideologically correct as far as defeating this bill.

1/20/2010 5:49:26 PM

^^^ I think Obama is dropping the ball there.

I think he should be more specific and say we need mandatory coverage, and we need pre-existing conditions covered under certain situations.

1/20/2010 6:35:49 PM

I would be happy with a bill that flipped the burden of proof on the insurance industry when it came to recision.

there should be a very high bar to rescind someone's health insurance... its far preferable for a little fraud to occur than some innocent people to get their insurance canceled.

1/20/2010 7:46:57 PM

Rescission is complete bullshit, and should be considered breach of contract or fraud. If I sign up for insurance, then I get sick and they decide to drop me, that's a fucking crime. That's an example of government not doing what it's actually supposed to do.

1/20/2010 8:16:24 PM

Quote :

""If there's one thing that I regret this year is that we were so busy just getting stuff done and dealing with the immediate crises that were in front of us that I think we lost some of that sense of speaking directly to the American people," Obama told ABC News. The president said that he had assumed that if he concentrated on making good policy decisions, voters would understand them, but instead they had become consumed by a "feeling of remoteness and detachment" from Washington. "That I do think is a mistake of mine," Obama said, diagnosing a mood of anger and frustration in the United States over the grinding and lingering impact of the worst recession for decades. "

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hyVFOhmrvyhQX-DJE6x64rE9b9Eg

If I were Obama (or if Obama were Bush...) I don't know if I would admit a loss of direction. I only see that hurting him, but maybe the public at large will appreciate the move more.

1/20/2010 8:20:23 PM

Quote :

"Rescission is complete bullshit, and should be considered breach of contract or fraud. If I sign up for insurance, then I get sick and they decide to drop me, that's a fucking crime. That's an example of government not doing what it's actually supposed to do."

QFT.

1/20/2010 9:07:47 PM

Solinari, I agree. Great couple last posts.

I think some insurance reform and extending the tax deductions to individuals is a great start and would easily draw bipartisan support. I would be pissed if my reps were opposing it just to oppose that bill.

1/20/2010 9:14:43 PM

Quote :

"We're the only industrialized nation that doesn't have such a program, and our health sucks in comparison."

and we are the one footing the bill for the rest of the world, and our healthcare system has little to do with why our health sux in comparison to the rest of the world. thank you for bringing up the same old tired DNC talking points.

Quote :

"I do want to ask Republicans what their idea of real reform"

well, how about asking the media to actually report on it. or, maybe you could do some research yourself and see that there are proposals out there. Hell, the pubs put a bill or two up in Congress that were summarily ignored by the Dems.

Quote :

"I dont necessarily disagree with that. However, not allowing people to switch insurance companies and not covering pre-existing conditions also means people are slaved to whatever company they initially chose, essentially allowing that company to charge whatever they like. You might get cancer, have your rates go through the roof, and have no recourse to change companies because the new company wouldnt cover pre-existing. If they are all forced to allow pre-existing, then there will be more competition and keep those rate increases in check."

there is a third way that you are not considering here, and it's been discussed in the Healthcare thread.

Quote :

"p.s. U can't fake 100,000+ votes. Brown won fair and square."

Ummm, Chicago begs to differ, lol.

Quote :

"I think we can all agree that doing nothing about the Healthcare crisis is unacceptable."

true. but doing what the dems are currently proposing is even more unacceptable.

Quote :

"If you cannot see that that is an unacceptable conclusion to arrive at, your party has no hope of retaking Washington in the foreseeable future. You must compromise."

Bullshit on two counts. It is absolutely OK to be against this reform. Plus, compromise isn't always the best road. If you always compromise, then you are always giving ground. Sometimes, you are on the right ground, so compromise is NOT called for.

Quote :

"The problem is that when the average person loses their job, they can't afford health insurance."

yes, but at least if employment is decoupled from insurance, there is the chance that some, if not all people could still keep their original insurance.

Quote :

"Feeding yourself/family is going to come before an expense that you probably aren't going to really use."

this is true, but the risk should still be yours to take. and you should be fucked if you lose that gamble. that's why it's a risk.

Quote :

"For people who can't afford unsubsidized coverage, that's where the minimum standard plan being called for comes in."

what if we could make unsubsidized coverage relatively inexpensive by restoring health insurance to an actual role of insurance?

Quote :

"Rescission is complete bullshit, and should be considered breach of contract or fraud. If I sign up for insurance, then I get sick and they decide to drop me, that's a fucking crime. That's an example of government not doing what it's actually supposed to do."

damn. fucking. right.

1/20/2010 11:10:39 PM

Quote :

"yes, but at least if employment is decoupled from insurance, there is the chance that some, if not all people could still keep their original insurance. "

This is already the case. People are just used to it being rolled in as compensation.

1/20/2010 11:12:37 PM

Quote :

"we were so busy just getting stuff done"

Most of the people don't want your "stuff" Mr. President.

Quote :

"I think we lost some of that sense of speaking directly to the American people,"

How 'bout listening to the American people for a change Mr. President?

Quote :

""We know that we have to have some form of cost containment"

It's called "The Free Market" Mr. President.

1/20/2010 11:13:28 PM

Quote :

"This is already the case. People are just used to it being rolled in as compensation."

the fuck it is. if that were the case, then we wouldn't need COBRA. durrrrrrrrrrr

1/20/2010 11:18:05 PM

lol @ moron

1/21/2010 12:18:01 AM

^^ umm.. Cobra is health coverage that REMAINS subsidized after you leave.

You can leave, and pay the unsubsidized price, or you can buy your independently at the unsubsidized price.

1/21/2010 12:24:31 AM

Part of the reason employment and insurance are coupled is because of the prohibitively high tax rates of the 1970s. Many firms learned it was more efficient to offer non-taxed health care plans than to simply pay employees more because of the declining rate of return on each additional dollar earned.

1/21/2010 9:51:12 AM

Quote :

"umm.. Cobra is health coverage that REMAINS subsidized after you leave. You can leave, and pay the unsubsidized price, or you can buy your independently at the unsubsidized price."

Subsidization is ultimately irrelevant here. The point is that COBRA is there specifically because health insurance is tightly coupled with employment. People lose their job, and they LOSE THEIR INSURANCE. As many have already bemoaned. COBRA just delays the time at which they lose the insurance. If the two weren't coupled, then one could leave his job and never worry about losing his insurance, never worrying about the cost skyrocketing, either. But, that doesn't happen, does it? Thus, there is a tight coupling between the two.

1/21/2010 8:12:36 PM

^^ that system though is what allowed our health companies to grow into the behemoths they are today.

1/21/2010 8:40:46 PM

^ gg ignoring the whup-ass aaronburro just threw down your pants.

1/21/2010 8:42:02 PM

moron, I don't see JCASHFAN saying that said system was a good thing in the first place

1/21/2010 8:44:31 PM

Blame the Left for Massachusetts
Democrats should be willing to seek common-ground reforms.
By LANNY J. DAVIS
JANUARY 20, 2010

Quote :

"Liberal Democrats might attempt to spin the shocking victory of Republican Scott Brown in Massachusetts by claiming that the loss was a result of a poor campaign by Martha Coakley. Would that it were so. This was a defeat not of the messenger, but of the message—and the sooner progressive Democrats face up to that fact, the better. It's the substance, stupid!"

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703837004575013221708478134.html

1/22/2010 5:36:37 AM

So if it's the substance, I presume we're talking about the healthcare plan.

Then they were voting against a less liberal healthcare plan than the one they currently have, and continue to approve of by a wide margin.

1/22/2010 11:08:30 AM

^ yeah, the spin out of the right, as always, is laughably nonsensical.

It's amazing that the right spent the first months of the obama presidency complaining how "compromise" was worthless and now that's all they can talk about.

1/22/2010 11:33:39 AM

^ Lanny Davis happens to be a well-known liberal--well-known to those who are informed, that is.

1/22/2010 3:18:41 PM

But he's got a pickup truck

1/22/2010 3:22:36 PM

Looks like the effect was truly world-wide:

Quote :

" The Indian and Chinese governments have had a rethink on signing the Copenhagen Accord, officials said on Saturday, and the UN has also indefinitely postponed its Jan 31 deadline for countries to accede to the document. An Indian official said that though the government had been thinking of signing the accord because it “did not have any legal teeth and would be good diplomatically”; it felt irked because of repeated messages from both UN officials and developed countries to accede to it. Prime Minister Manmohan Singh has written to UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon seeking a number of clarifications on the implications of the accord that India -- with five other countries -- had negotiated in the last moments of the Copenhagen climate summit in December, the officials said, speaking on condition of anonymity. “That letter, and the defeat of the Democrats in the Massachusetts bypoll, has forced the UN to postpone the deadline indefinitely,” an official said. “With the Democrats losing in one of their strongholds, the chances of the climate bill going through the US senate have receded dramatically."

http://beta.thehindu.com/news/national/article93870.ece?homepage=true

1/25/2010 12:26:06 PM

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/hp/ssi/wpc/mass-poll22.html

Post-election MA poll results are in....



So much for a referendum on healthcare.... try again.

1/25/2010 1:09:57 PM

The first one just said that Mass voters wanted Scott Brown to help Republicans advocate their ideas by working with Democrats. That is hardly an avocation of the Democratic agenda.

The second one is flawed since it presumes people understand what is in a bill which doesn't formally exist and which is being modified behind closed doors by the Democratic leadership. There are no specifics to think about. Quite frankly, the number you see likely reflect the natural inclination people have towards Obama in the state of Massachusetts.

1/25/2010 2:12:27 PM

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/01/31/AR2010013100755.html
It looks like the Tea Party hero is pro-choice

Quote :

"Brown has said the GOP shouldn't take his vote for granted on every issue. He says he's fiscally conservative but more moderate on social issues."

[Edited on January 31, 2010 at 1:09 PM. Reason : ]

1/31/2010 1:08:27 PM