I jinxed him. Missed a really good look to tie it last night at the end, of course.

And LOL at people thinking Kobe has a better all around game than Lebron at this point... or that we should even be having a discussion about it.

As I said, I wouldn't waver putting Kobe in my Top 4 EVER for getting the ball in his hands for one play to win/tie.

[Edited on February 25, 2010 at 9:12 AM. Reason : x]

2/25/2010 9:12:01 AM

Because the last post on a page is always wasted


The Lakers have by far the deepest team in the league, but they don't have anyone who can be the head honcho besides Kobe. Most of those guys you mentioned...Gerald, David Lee, Horford, etc. wouldn't make that current Lakers team any better because they don't have that Alpha Dog mindset.

Gasol, Odom, Artest, Bynum...all very good players, but you can't ask any of them to lead a championship-caliber team. You need that one guy to lead the pack. Besides Kobe, there are maybe 3 wing guys in the league who could get the same success out of that group of players...LBJ, Wade, and Pierce. Durant, Roy and Melo are right in that next level at this point in their careers.

The point is, while individually, Kobe has definitely peaked and is slowly regressing, as a team leader, he remains one of the guys in the league who can fill that role. It's a lot like Ray Lewis in the fact that he's still respected and treated as one of the best even though a lot of younger guys have surpassed him skills wise.

2/25/2010 9:14:43 AM

I didn't say if you replaced Kobe with David Lee at SG the Lakers would be just as good with Lee clanging threes off the rim and getting burnt by Jason Terry.


But if you switch a very good SG like Brandon Roy and Kobe who have similar games and very similar production (Roy has been better than Kobe this year due to the injury) then the Lakers and Blazers would still be in the same place in the standings.

That is not true if you switched Lebron with a very good SF like Igoudala or Josh Smith. The Cavs would sink to the #5 seed at best in the East instead of dominating the regular season on the way to 60 wins.

2/25/2010 5:41:03 PM

Has Lebron ever hit a big shot in his career, aside from the 3 in the Orlando series that simply prolonged the series so Cleveland didn't lose 4-1?

Yall are trying to crown his ass, in February. LOL.

2/25/2010 5:47:58 PM

Yeah, put David Lee at shooting guard, nice way of twisting what I said to the extreme.

The Lakers minus Kobe are still at top 8 team...the Cavs minus LeBron probably miss the playoffs. This doesn't make Lebron more valuable, because the goal of these teams is not to make to playoffs, or be one of the last 8 left standing. Anything less than a title for either team will be a disappointment. So you have to view it based on how they stack up against each other, based on their respective roles on their team. And I'm not sure LeBron has proven his is better vs elite competition yet. Its one thing to put up crazy numbers vs Charlotte and New Jersey, its another to do it vs Denver and Dallas. And on that level, The Black Mamba still has the upper hand.

2/25/2010 5:58:35 PM

AI and Smith are not even the top 5 at their position

How about this instead. Switch Lebron and Melo "who have similar games and very similar production".

The Cavs are still the #1 seed and dominating the East on their way to winning 60 games.

HEY I CAN PLAY THIS GAME TOO

You can pull out any "metric" you want but if you polled every single GM in basketball, Kobe would be in their top 5 players right now.

2/25/2010 6:11:24 PM

you take lebron off the cavs last yr and you have the new jersey nets this yr, it amazes me how overrated his presence makes that bunch of guys, I don't think enough people took a hard look at that team (especially the ones that thought they were fine before the antawn trade)

they had absolutely nothing in the post (I think that whole boozer situation was devestating for the them), one energy guy good for what seven or eight rebounds, a block or two and six points and some aging 7 footer that couldn't even do damage around the basket to begin with, they could have at least gotten him a decent sized/talent to share the wing with even though west did the best he could and had a decent yr last yr, mo williams is a good sidekick for lebron though I admit but hes top a top five point guard

2/25/2010 6:23:58 PM

I think Lebron is hands down MVP this year...Kobe isn't even 2nd, I would give that nod to Durant

But just because Lebron is putting up the best numbers THIS YEAR doesn't make him the best player in the league imo

2/25/2010 6:33:17 PM

Well, you just sold yourself out there man. Igoudala and Josh Smith are the best SF's in the league this year not named Lebron,Gerald Wallace, or Durant (depending on what position you classify him as)

This isn't even remotely arguable, where do you guys come up with your silly indefensible positions?



haha, don't be so ridiculous. The Cavs are ~10 games worse with Carmelo instead of Lebron. Carmelo isn't really doing anything special this year.

2/25/2010 6:57:42 PM

Quote :

"The Cavs are ~"

well they did add Jamison

2/25/2010 7:07:03 PM

Quote :

"The Cavs are ~10 games worse with Carmelo instead of Lebron"

bullshit

True or False LollyDurham

If you polled every GM in basketball, would they put Kobe in the top 5 players in the league today?

2/25/2010 7:49:36 PM

I'm pretty sure if you asked every GM in basketball if Kobe was in their top 3, they would laugh at you, and ask if you were serious, and then give you a resounding 'yes'

2/25/2010 7:54:23 PM

based on his regular season production this year of course not, he's just not playing even close to that level.

If he's completely healthy and it's a 7 game series for the title, probably.

He'd be behind Lebron, Howard, and Paul by quite a bit but I think #4 would be a close pick between him and Wade.

Kobe's never put a team on his back the way Wade has, that's for sure.

2/25/2010 7:56:18 PM

Quote :

"Kobe's never put a team on his back the way Wade has, that's for sure."

this must be some kind of joke

you've got to be just trolling the shit out of us now

[Edited on February 25, 2010 at 7:59 PM. Reason : .]

2/25/2010 7:58:13 PM

Kobe is good, but he's nowhere near the player Steve Nash is, right rally?

Kobe has won a title without Shaq, unlike Wade

2/25/2010 8:00:55 PM

METRICS METRICS METRICS METRICS METRICS METRICS METRICS METRICS METRICS METRICS METRICS METRICS METRICS METRICS METRICS METRICS METRICS METRICS METRICS METRICS METRICS METRICS METRICS METRICS METRICS METRICS METRICS METRICS METRICS METRICS METRICS METRICS METRICS METRICS METRICS METRICS METRICS METRICS METRICS METRICS

2/25/2010 8:09:52 PM

What are you talking about? The year Kobe scored at will and they missed the playoffs?

Or the years when they've lost in the first round?


Kobe has always been fine as long as all he's had to do is score reasonably efficiently.

He's never had success in the NBA carrying a team.

Lebron and Wade have both experienced that.

2/25/2010 8:19:03 PM

I like how rally gives Shaq all the credit for the Lakers' 3 titles, but gives Wade all the credit for the Heat title

I also like how you say Howard is well above Kobe...cause at the end of the game, I want a 7-footer who shoots 50% from the line taking the last shot

rawr, i'm big and strong and can turn and dunk the ball, i'm quite a bit better than kobe

[Edited on February 25, 2010 at 8:29 PM. Reason : .]

2/25/2010 8:24:05 PM

No, Kobe was a great player when they won 2 of those titles. But Shaq was on a three year stretch of some of the most dominant seasons in NBA history without question.

Shaq was above average in Miami but that's it.


And yes I'd rather have an NBA SG taking last second shots than a center. But I'd rather have a dominant center for the first 46 minutes than a once elite SG on the downside of his career.

2/25/2010 8:30:41 PM

I just especially like how all the players you are saying are greater than Kobe, with the exception of Wade, haven't won anything.

And unlike Kobe, Wade hasn't won anything without Shaq.

Lebron, Paul, Howard...they haven't won anything, period.

rally, if Albert Pujols has a "down" year this season like Kobe is doing...say Pujols is only 5th in batting average...say he's only 10th in homeruns...are you going to say he's not the best player in the game? Are you gonna say "Pujols is 30 years old, he's a once elite 1B on the downside of his career"?

[Edited on February 25, 2010 at 8:41 PM. Reason : .]

2/25/2010 8:34:42 PM

Tree this is like trying to explain quantum physics to a down syndrome kid.

You're just wasting your time and he is never going to understand. He'll just drool all over himself and continue to say "metrics" over and over.

2/25/2010 9:01:24 PM

wow at 410 and durham in this thread.

Quote :

"This isn't even remotely arguable"

I love this attitude! None of your opinions are even REMOTELY arguable. Stating straight facts!


Then people act like Kobe's team is some kind of all star team. What was Gasol doing in Memphis with a good sg in Gay? He's really good but being with Kobe has made him draw more attention and look better.

The rest of the lakers team was just bynum, lamar, fisher and an energetic bench but people want to act like it was some kind of super all star team. Same with Artest.

Take pierce and Kobe off and the celtics have INSANELY more talent the lakers. That shows you how good kobe is.

NUMBERS AT THIS POINT IN THE GAME MEAN NOTHING.

All rally does is look at the stat sheet and avgs per game well its febrary. In the playoffs numbers still mean nothing. Kobe just being on the floor creates so many things plus he can put a hex on the 1 or 2 position defensively.

He's not a stat stuffer but pulling down 10 rebounds a game wouldn't really make a difference if you have big guys that can rebound.

Kobe hasn't gone down. Sure hes lost some athletic explosability but hes just been bagned up this year. He's still the most deadly lethal player in the game. By far.

Wade is cute and so is lebron but they don't have the jumpers kobe has. Lebron is not a slasher like kobe and wade. Lerbon is a bowler.

Kobe is still sophisticated and surgical in his moves like a figure skater. Just wait.

2/26/2010 12:35:16 AM

Look mambagrl, I'm all for not putting huge blocks of text. But fucking spacing out EVERY GOD DAMN LINE is just as annoying.

2/26/2010 12:43:46 AM

Stephen Curry ftw

and Ty Lawson might be the first Tar Heel that I enjoy watching play without feeling guilty

[Edited on February 26, 2010 at 2:37 AM. Reason : .]

2/26/2010 2:36:30 AM

^^^

Quote :

"NUMBERS AT THIS POINT IN THE GAME MEAN NOTHING."

Huh? How can we objectively evaluate a player then? And I don't SOLELY look at counting numbers either.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics?&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnba%2fhollinger%2fstatistics

I don't know if you can see this because it's insider, but it's the Hollinger PER. Kobe is 10th this year.

Quote :

"Take pierce and Kobe off and the celtics have INSANELY more talent the lakers. That shows you how good kobe is."

I completely disagree, mainly because it's 2010 and not two or three years ago. First off, Ray Allen is clearly aging and is probably not even a Top 15 two at this point (and do you know how hard that is for me to admit considering he is my favorite player ever). Gasol is having a better year than Garnett. The Celtics have the clear advantage at the point obviously but that's it (if you remove Pierce and Kobe).

Quote :

"Wade is cute and so is lebron but they don't have the jumpers kobe has. Lebron is not a slasher like kobe and wade. Lerbon is a bowler."

Lebron doesn't NEED to be as good a jump shooter as Kobe, because he can get to the basket and score almost at will! It's about who can influence the game more and I don't care what metric you want to use, Kobe comes up short to Lebron right now, in 2010.

And I DID say that Kobe is the most clutch player in the NBA right now and one of the best I've EVER seen!

Quote :

"rally, if Albert Pujols has a "down" year this season like Kobe is doing...say Pujols is only 5th in batting average...say he's only 10th in homeruns...are you going to say he's not the best player in the game? Are you gonna say "Pujols is 30 years old, he's a once elite 1B on the downside of his career"?"

Not to me, but I'll address this by saying it's irrelevant and not a good comparison. Kobe has A LOT more mileage on his legs than the typical 30-31 year old and plays a position where his entire game is based on his legs being good. Plus the fact that the typical prime age range of a baseball player is a good two years older than basketball.

[Edited on February 26, 2010 at 8:18 AM. Reason : x]

2/26/2010 8:16:37 AM

The relevance of the comparison is that when you have somebody who is clearly the best player in the game (ie, Kobe last year and Pujols last year), its pretty shortsighted to claim they are falling off so bad, based on slightly lower average numbers halfway through the following season

2/26/2010 9:55:02 AM

i just watched the Golden State/Denver game, the Warriors lost by like 30 but it was still all steph curry. he throws the dirtiest passes in the league.

2/27/2010 1:30:49 PM

Wade is cute?! Haha, he destroyed Kobe last season by any measure.

Wade was unreal last year. WoW has him accountable for TWENTY TWO wins.

2/27/2010 2:04:36 PM

that Amare dunk was vicious!

[Edited on February 28, 2010 at 3:23 PM. Reason : that Richardson dunk, however, was not vicious and cost them the game ]

2/28/2010 3:20:38 PM

Al Jefferson has been drinking

2/28/2010 4:13:55 PM

Funny how Richardson's most memorable plays in Phoenix thus far have both been missed dunks

2/28/2010 4:28:28 PM

This Lakers whining is getting [old]

The Nuggets are getting physical with them and all they do is bitch and give the refs dirty looks.

2/28/2010 4:36:47 PM

kobe is always going to do that, he's pretty much the nba version of coach k, he's always going to slur bs at the refs because it's a strategy and he wants to get any bs he can in his favor

2/28/2010 6:47:57 PM

AI is unlikely to return to the team this season, per ESPN

3/2/2010 9:17:14 AM

So he's basically done then

Sad to see an all time great go out with such a whimper



On another note, watching Dirk last night in person for the first time was just incredible. Athletically, he doesn't do anything that wows you. He just hits that 15 footer over anyone at anytime. If you can't shoot over Tyrus Thomas with relative ease, you can shoot over just about anyone.

3/2/2010 9:39:45 AM

Does anyone know what is wrong with his daughter that would be serious enough for him to not return?

3/2/2010 10:03:42 AM

Andres Nocioni has also been drinking

3/2/2010 3:05:52 PM

looks like d7freestyler on here

3/2/2010 3:12:04 PM

Quote :

"Does anyone know what is wrong with his daughter that would be serious enough for him to not return?"

she made him go to practice

3/2/2010 3:16:38 PM

^^ I was just about to post



goodnight, sweet prince

3/2/2010 3:20:11 PM

I don't think iverson is done IF he wants to play in the nba. He has to be willing to accept no money though.

I'd be willing to bet he surfaces overseas for a big paycheck instead

3/2/2010 5:56:36 PM

OMG SHAQ IS OUT for the regular season, surely cleveland can't win the title now

12 points and 6 rebounds

WAHHH WAHHH

seriously espn stop overlymarketing players well past their primes, he is just an average center at best this year

3/2/2010 7:13:44 PM

He does present a big matchup problem for Bynum and Gasol so as long as he is back by May/June it's all good.

3/2/2010 7:43:31 PM

From the way back machine

3/3/2010 10:50:15 AM

LOL!!!

3/3/2010 10:51:31 AM

Damn I forgot all about Kendall Gill

and Lil' Penny

3/3/2010 10:54:08 AM

i think it's funny that the one guy not mean muggin the camera is the one who shot a guy

3/3/2010 10:55:33 AM

The funny part is, they did get to the Finals in 2002 and 2003, but with an almost entirely different roster

3/3/2010 10:57:12 AM

who all is that, Kittles, J-Will, Gill, Alien and Van Horn?

3/3/2010 11:01:33 AM

Yup

A veritable all star team back in NBA Live '98

3/3/2010 11:10:46 AM