Quote :

"This is kind of tangential, but what happens down the line when we have 300 million people in the workforce but society doesn't need 400 million jobs filled? "

Well, then that sucks! unless you are in a contract, there's nothing you can do about it. I suppose you could go into a private sector (or start your own business) and compete with the market. That's what capitalism is about right? Last I checked, America was the perfect place if you have a great business idea and wanted to start your own company. Heck, I know two different business owners personally who both started up about a year ago and each of them are doing very well! All it takes is a solid business model, a pinch of luck, some money, and a thorough understanding of your market to be successful.

Why is it you put the repsonsibility on person A to create a job for person B because person A has the wealth to do so? Person A has no responsibility for person B.

Quote :

"They are spending money on bills."

You know having been a teller, I was shocked to see how many people were broke. I mean, people of all pay grades broke. Examples that come to mind was this one lady who was making about $25k/yr, but had a $150/mo cable, internet, and phone bundle with TWC. She barely had enough to pay her other debts, groceries, etc after taxes and she would always joke about "oh lawd, I've got $24 left in my account? Good, that'll be enough for gas money until my next check..." Heck, I've seen similar situations with those making ~$65k. The point is, people spend more than they need to. Majority of people don't prioritize and would rather live in financial poverty than give up unecessary bills (ie: phone/internet/cable, going out to eat constantly rather than cooking for themselves, not taking advantage of "free money" sources such as coupons or shopping when "good deals" are available...). Which brings another point, excessive spending on items not essential (ie: candy, excessive clothes/shoes/"bling", junk food, toys, etc). Anyways, people spend way to much on "bills."

Quote :

"because a minimum wage employer certainly isn't paying insurance"

No, but many have options they offer if you do want ins. If you are working, then you can "afford" some insurance better than if you have no income at all.

Quote :

"because a minimum wage employer certainly isn't contributing to a 401(k)) and paying down student loan debt on top of that?"

Some do, some don't (in regards to 401(k) contributions.

Paying student loan debt? Some do and some don't. Off the top of my head, I know that McDonald's does. It's not much and I'm positive there are restrictions, but I know they will (help) pay for school on top of a minimum wage salary.

Hell, part of it is negotiating. I worked at McDonald's one summer and was making just as much as my "shift manager" starting off. They needed labor, I needed the job, and I proved my worth by busting my ass and working hard.



What you've mentioned are "perks." Some jobs pay for their employee's comute to work. Others do not. Each job is different and so is what is offered as compensation for the labor/tasks assigned. If you don't like the deal, find an employer that has one you do like. I'm sure if you work your way up the ladder, benefits will likely improve.



[Edited on September 21, 2011 at 2:22 AM. Reason : .]

9/21/2011 2:01:49 AM

The jobs will be created, but right now people are being funneled into non-productive sectors.

There's really only one escape from this cycle...pull the rug out. All the credit is being hogged up by the banks, many of which are only solvent on paper thanks to cheap (let's be honest...free) money. Raise interest rates, let the bank failures begin. It'll suck, but it's gotta happen and the longer we wait the worse it gets.

Let the reset happen, get the government out of loans, and then credit will be extended according to the market. Creditors will not look at an English major and an engineering major the same way. One will be worth the risk, one won't - I'll let you guess which is which. Trying to remove risk for the sake of allowing everyone to pursue their dreams (whatever that means) can only end badly. In a healthy economy where people are saving, not just consuming endlessly, there will be credit available.

Any approach other than the one I've described above is a short-term solution, if it's a solution at all.

9/21/2011 2:02:47 AM

^ This.

It's kind of like disinfecting an open wound. Yeah it'll hurt like hell when you pour the alchol in, but it's either going to hurt now or worse later after the wound starts to get infected...

9/21/2011 2:06:47 AM

Quote :

"Well, then that sucks! unless you are in a contract, there's nothing you can do about it. I suppose you could go into a private sector (or start your own business) and compete with the market. That's what capitalism is about right? Last I checked, America was the perfect place if you have a great business idea and wanted to start your own company."

You may want to check again! http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704648604575621061892216250.html?mod=WSJ_hp_LEFTWhatsNewsCollection

Quote :

"Heck, I know two different business owners personally who both started up about a year ago and each of them are doing very well! All it takes is a solid business model, a pinch of luck, some money, and a thorough understanding of your market to be successful."

I love anecdotal evidence but it's not really helpful to a larger discussion!

Quote :

"Why is it you put the repsonsibility on person A to create a job for person B because person A has the wealth to do so? Person A has no responsibility for person B."

Well we obviously disagree on the role of government, but I feel that the job of a government should be to provide a society in which its citizens can prosper and have an infrastructure to support their personal and commercial endeavors and have the basic necessities of life, and maybe even a few extras so they can have some kind of dignity instead of living like sharecroppers. But anyway, in order to facilitate a society that's worth half a shit, you have to collect taxes. 80% of the wealth is concentrated in the top 20% of income earners. Hopefully you can see how these people benefit disproportionately from the infrastructure provided by the government, or else they'd probably set up shop in sub-Saharan Africa, where the taxes are even lower!



But the fact that these few people have all this money makes the economy pretty unstable! Whoa! It's like a rollercoaster! You can look at the aftermath of Pinochet's rebellion in Chile or the collapse of the Soviet Union to see that it really doesn't serve a society very well for all that money to be concentrated at the top. But the government has the right to tax them in order to support the backbone of the society that they benefit from! And they can spend it pretty much however they want! Including by hiring people to build roads or send a man to the moon or pretty much anything they want! So no, maybe person A doesn't have a direct responsibility to person B but the cool really thing is it doesn't really matter! But if you want to take your chances in sub-Saharan Africa I don't think they'd turn you away or anything.

Quote :

"You know having been a teller, I was shocked to see how many people were broke. I mean, people of all pay grades broke. Examples that come to mind was this one lady who was making about $25k/yr, but had a $150/mo cable, internet, and phone bundle with TWC. She barely had enough to pay her other debts, groceries, etc after taxes and she would always joke about "oh lawd, I've got $24 left in my account? Good, that'll be enough for gas money until my next check..." Heck, I've seen similar situations with those making ~$65k. The point is, people spend more than they need to. Majority of people don't prioritize and would rather live in financial poverty than give up unecessary bills (ie: phone/internet/cable, going out to eat constantly rather than cooking for themselves, not taking advantage of "free money" sources such as coupons or shopping when "good deals" are available...). Which brings another point, excessive spending on items not essential (ie: candy, excessive clothes/shoes/"bling", junk food, toys, etc). Anyways, people spend way to much on "bills.""

I love anecdotal evidence but it's not really helpful to a larger discussion!

And besides that, what we need right now is "excessive spending" (whatever that means) because even if you know a lady who buys things, there are a lot more ladies who are not buying things like they used to! This is actually bad for an economy! It's also probably pretty hard to do a lot of things without at least a phone and the internet too, to the point where I'd say they're almost as indispensable as a refrigerator. Did you know that 96% of "poor" people have a refrigerator? Those food chilling motherfuckers.

This is from 09 but I would bet it's still relatively accurate: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33972965/ns/travel-news/t/people-traveling-less-often-spending-less/

Here's a more recent one: http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2011/05/chart-of-the-day-americans-actually-spent-less-in-april/238861/

Here's another: http://www.propublica.org/article/our-sputtering-economy-by-the-numbers-poverty-edition

I'm just sayin', some people got it pretty rough and it's not just because they're driving around in a shiny new Escalade! Believe it or don't, ain't no skin off my back!

Quote :

"No, but many have options they offer if you do want ins. If you are working, then you can "afford" some insurance better than if you have no income at all."

Ok but my point was that either way you're still paying for insurance and not on things that contribute to repairing the economy! I don't know why "afford" is in scare quotes!

Quote :

"Some do, some don't (in regards to 401(k) contributions. Paying student loan debt? Some do and some don't. Off the top of my head, I know that McDonald's does. It's not much and I'm positive there are restrictions, but I know they will (help) pay for school on top of a minimum wage salary. Hell, part of it is negotiating. I worked at McDonald's one summer and was making just as much as my "shift manager" starting off. They needed labor, I needed the job, and I proved my worth by busting my ass and working hard."

Again my point was that these are additional bills that don't generate growth in the economy. It's cool that McDonald's will help pay your student loans I guess but I feel like they'd probably rather hire a high schooler who doesn't have those loans to pay off. On the other hand I guess you can just follow the other advice in this thread and just leave off the fact that you ever graduated high school and went to college (but then how do you get into the program??? the mind boggles)

Quote :

"What you've mentioned are "perks." Some jobs pay for their employee's comute to work. Others do not. Each job is different and so is what is offered as compensation for the labor/tasks assigned. If you don't like the deal, find an employer that has one you do like. I'm sure if you work your way up the ladder, benefits will likely improve."

Quote :

"Yeah, you just pick a job from the old job tree! That's exactly how it works! Everyone is just too lazy to walk out to the job tree!"

9/21/2011 3:03:11 AM

Quote :

"lol @ folks using the term "fair" it's a completely subjective term and it weakens one's argument to use it "

You must be trolling.

Definition of Fair:
1. Without cheating or trying to achieve unjust advantage.
2. In accordance with the rules or standards; legitimate.

So yes, it is FAIR that one pays back the money on a loan they borrowed from and had agreed to pay back. That's what it means to borrow. Shall I define "borrow" for you too?

Call it honorable/logical/responsible. Whatever helps you sleep at night.




Actionpants, consider the "anecdotes" my observation and experience over a period of time and with hundreds of people. What I provided were a couple examples, but if the statistic ratio holds true (the average American Networth thread agreed with my small sample size), then my "anecdotes" are not circumstantial evidence.

Quote :

" I don't know why "afford" is in scare quotes!"

Because everyone is vastly different. Perhaps you have an initial condition? Age, race, family medical history, etc all play a big role in your health ins. costs. You may in fact get a job but still unable to afford health insurance while paying other bills/debts.



But you are right Saunders. Our views on the government's role differ greatly, hence our different viewpoints in the agenda at hand.

9/21/2011 3:53:28 AM

Hiro

Quote :

"However, there is an abundance of "low skilled" labor jobs available. The market for "high skilled" labor is very small at this point."

I'm not saying there is a huge demand for high skilled labor, but low skilled labor has little to no demand.

I don't know from where you obtain your "facts" but you really should investigate more thoroughly.

http://www.economist.com/node/21528433
http://www.businessweek.com/technology/hiring-like-its-1999-08012011.html

ActionPants

Quote :

"Hopefully you can see how these people benefit disproportionately from the infrastructure provided by the government"

That doesn't even begin to make sense. Lets say that both you and I have jobs and work. In this scenario, I make very little, ride the bus to work, get government assistance and work at McDonald's and live in a bad neighborhood that is monitored constantly by the police while you have a high paying white collar job, take your car to work and otherwise live your life. How are you, in this scenario, benefiting more from our infrastructure than me.

The lower income individual is getting far more out of the government pocket in this situation while the higher income individual is supporting themselves and requiring very little assistance from the government. To be in the top 5% of US households you only need about a 150K household income. You don't need to be a captain of industry, CEO of a large corporation or even small business owner.

Could you please explain your position more clearly?

[Edited on September 21, 2011 at 8:56 AM. Reason : .]

9/21/2011 8:50:01 AM

There's more to it than income support and entitlement programs.

The legal system in place overwhelmingly favors the rich in terms of intellectual property (especially now that we've moved to a first-to-file system). A person who invents something might be able to get it patented, or he might not if a corporation files for the patent first simply because they have an army of patent lawyers and whoever gets to the patent office first wins. The tax code allows someone who's already rich to put their money in capital gains, where it's taxed less, giving them an effective lower tax rate than many people who make less income yet not really stimulating any growth in the economy (granted it does provide some liquidity). If the rich dude was born in a country where they don't have a banking infrastructure, obviously they would be unable to access that market at all.

I work for a widget company, I basically just need the roads for my one car and maybe public transportation to get to work. Getting a free public education through high school is a nice benefit.

If I run a widget company, I need to ship my products to certain places, and I can send out lots of trucks on roads (which contributes to the decline of those roads much more rapidly) or put goods on railroads that were put in place by the government rather than having to build my own using. If someone infringes on my intellectual property or otherwise harms me in an illegal way, I can use the court system to remedy the problem, which is financed by tax money. An individual rarely, if ever, uses the court system for the kinds of funds involved here. I want workers who've been educated, and I don't have to pay to send them to school because my hundreds of workers all went to public school for free. I want to make sure that someone doesn't come rob all my stuff, and the police are much more likely to respond quickly to my 911 call than a similar call from my employee in the trailer park. I can get my own insurance subsidized for providing employer-based healthcare through my corporation.

I have to go to class but hopefully this is a start!

[Edited on September 21, 2011 at 9:55 AM. Reason : .]

9/21/2011 9:55:10 AM

my "facts" are from my observations... I've seen new employees in quite a few locations I frequently shop. TWC is hiring part time employees for call center work. There are job openings where I work and quite a few of them! My wife and I stopped playing "found a job!" because once we opened our eyes, we realized LOTS of places are taking applications and hiring for positions. Game Stop, restaurants, and plenty other retail locations are hiring. Hell, you can look at Craigslist and find a slew of jobs that people are hiring for...

http://raleigh.craigslist.org/lab/

With as many ads that are in craigslist alone, you can't tell me people aren't looking to hire someone. instead of relying on a news article to give me my information, I looked at the world around me and found that it's not that bad. The proof is there for you to find/see for yourself.

Taken from The Economist article link:

Quote :

"Much as Americans complain, compared with some other countries their economy presents a picture of good health. "

And if worst comes to worst, the military is always open for business... Sign on up!
Point is that there ARE options out there.

[Edited on September 21, 2011 at 9:59 AM. Reason : ..]

[Edited on September 21, 2011 at 10:00 AM. Reason : .]

[Edited on September 21, 2011 at 10:02 AM. Reason : ..]

9/21/2011 9:57:25 AM

This is hilarious. Hiro is all I don't need your facts, MAN.

You realize that no one believes there are literally no jobs available right?

And you realize that 50 jobs posted on craigslist hardly solves the issue of 50,000+ unemployed in the Triangle, right?

9/21/2011 11:36:21 AM

so is the government going to pay my student loans or what?

9/21/2011 11:48:30 AM

"Damn that television ... what a bad picture"!
"Don't get upset, It's not a major disaster".
"There's nothing on tonight", he said, "I don't know
what's the matter"!
"Nothing's ever on", she said, "so ... I don't know
why you bother."

We've heard this little scene, we've heard it many times.
People fighting over little things and wasting precious time.
They might be better off ... I think ... the way it seems to me.
Making up their own shows, which might be better than T.V.

[CHORUS]
Judy's in the bedroom, inventing situations.
Bob is on the street today, scouting up locations.
They've enlisted all their family.
They've enlisted all their friends.
It helped saved their relationship,
And made it work again ...

Their show gets real high ratings, they think they have a hit.
There might even be a spinoff, but they're not sure 'bout that.
If they ever watch T.V. again, it'd be too soon for them.
Bob never yells about the picture now, he's having
too much fun.

[CHORUS]
Judy's in the bedroom, inventing situations,
Bob is on the street today, scouting up locations.
They've enlisted all their family.
They've enlisted all their friends.
It helped save their relationship,
And made it work again ...

So think about this little scene; apply it to you life.
If your work isn't what you love, then something isn't right.
Just look at Bob and Judy; they're happy as can be,
Inventing situations, putting them on T.V.

[CHORUS]
Judy's in the bedroom, inventing situations.
Bob is on the street today, scouting up locations.
They've enlisting all their family.
They've enlisted all their friends.
It helped save the relationship,
And made it work again ...

9/21/2011 11:53:33 AM

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44623502/ns/business-stocks_and_economy/t/great-recession-yields-lost-generation-workers/

9/22/2011 2:28:04 PM

^Everything in that article is false. They should get a job on Craigslist. The jobs are there, go look.

9/22/2011 3:57:41 PM

So noen never came back after contradicting the shit out of himself?

Seems about right.

9/22/2011 4:03:42 PM

^No, I have a shit ton of work to do outside of arguing over entitlements on the internet. Don't worry sweetie, I'll get you a response in due time.

9/22/2011 8:36:29 PM

as much as i agree with personal accountability, i would personally benefit greatly from this.banks,gm etc. got bailed out, why shouldn't I. +1 vote

[Edited on September 23, 2011 at 9:52 PM. Reason : forgot to say screw our kids and america make it happen!]

9/23/2011 9:50:52 PM

Not supporting the program is not mutually exclusive from taking advantage of it if offered to you.

I mean, I thought the 1st time homebuyer program was fucking stupid all the way to the bank.

9/23/2011 9:58:55 PM

Quote :

"Plumbers, Masons, Mechanics, hell even assembly line workers can all make 75k+ a year, and senior trade people can top 100k a yea"

Oh look, Neon back to his old "make up numbers trick" to win an argument. I've never seen this before.

9/23/2011 10:19:15 PM

You have to peruse Craigslist and CareerBuilder below the surface to see that even though there are new jobs, there aren't that many that are going to provide people with reliable income.

Exhibit A: 10-20% (at least) of the jobs on Craigslist are scams. Most are connected to employer-network.com. These are the jobs where they collect your personal information on page 1, then on page 2 you get questions that are relevant to the job, such as "Do you have high-speed internet at home?" "Are you interested in going back to school to further your education?" etc. THERE ARE NO JOBS FROM THESE COMPANIES. THEIR JOB IS TO SELL YOUR INFORMATION TO OTHER COMPANIES WHOSE JOB IT IS TO SELL YOU THEIR SERVICES.

Exhibit B: 10-20% of the jobs posted on CareerBuilder are 100% commission-based. In some industries, this would be okay. For these jobs, it is not worth your time. You aren't going to sell enough office supplies to small businesses to make up what you spend on gas (it's out of your pocket). If you happen to be good at sales, and go out and land a huge account (ie- you convinced NCSU to buy all of their pencils from you @ $10k pencils per month), you'll get that commission ONCE. After that, the NCSU account will become a 'Corporate' account and you'll be sent back to the street to harass businesses on Hillsborough Street to buy their printer paper from you. If it's selling cars, the new car business sucks at the moment. You might get by, maybe, but you're going to be low man on the totem pole, swimming amongst sharks who are more experienced than you. Regardless, commission-based jobs would make anyone who depends on income and isn't a career sales person uneasy.

Exhibit C: Part-time jobs won't pay the bills. In some cases, part-time bills will be enough to disqualify someone from social services (food stamps, energy assistance, etc.). Many times, it's actually more expensive to take a part-time job than it is to just stay home and send in apps on CareerBuilder or Indeed.

Once you start considering how expensive things actually are, the destitution that the unemployed face becomes clearer. Sure, a person could ride the bus to save on gas, repairs, and insurance, but are you going to ride the bus around town all day to buy groceries, go to the doctor (if you have insurance.. if not, whatever gains you got from that part-time job just went down the shitter with onc visit to the ER), and go to interviews at better jobs?

I'll provide a current example. On CareerBuilder yesterday, there were 28 retail jobs posted. People desperate for a job should look towards the retail sector.
1) 7 jobs are 100% commission-based. (Hendrick Kia, Hendrick Chevy, NuCO2, 4fifty8 Acquisitions)
2) 2 jobs are scams (taking internet surveys, data entry from home)
3) 6 jobs are actually in Mooresville, NC. (This isn't bad, but if you have the skills necessary for these jobs at Lowe's then you probably aren't unemployed. I don't even know why these are in retail, other than Lowe's is involved in retail operations. These are skilled, technical-expertise jobs).
4) 3 jobs are part-time. (Macy's, Weinstein Properties)
5) 1 job is a seasonal contract job. (Macy's)
6) There are 9 jobs that appear to be normal full-time jobs.

Some of those jobs have been posted several times. I know that the Extra Space Storage and Murphy USA jobs have been up for over a month. I applied to both, 3 degrees from NCSU, 9 years of retail experience (6 as a manager) when they came up the first time. No call.

The job situation isn't perilous because there are a lot of people who don't want to work. There are plenty of people who want to work, and would take these retail jobs that pay $12-$18 per hour. Unfortunately, many of these companies aren't bothering to contact applicants who have a college degree or multiple years of experience because they think that they'll just leave for a better job. That might be the case, but when is a better job going to come along?

[Edited on September 24, 2011 at 4:11 AM. Reason : If they forgive student loans, I'll be big balling.]

9/24/2011 4:04:08 AM

Quote :

"The job situation isn't perilous because there are a lot of people who don't want to work. There are plenty of people who want to work"

You can't tell someone who knows everything this.

Next, they will come in here and tell you that you should look over the entire country to find work...and that it just HAS to be available. These are people that haven't looked for jobs during this down turn telling you what it's like looking for jobs during the down turn.

Lots of pontificators without nary a god damn clue what they are talking about. Just remember that.

9/24/2011 9:27:08 AM

Quote :

"Sure, a person could ride the bus to save on gas, repairs, and insurance, but are you going to ride the bus around town all day to buy groceries, go to the doctor (if you have insurance.. if not, whatever gains you got from that part-time job just went down the shitter with onc visit to the ER), and go to interviews at better jobs? "

Why not? There's nothing wrong with utilizing public transportation for these reasons. It may not be the most efficient use of your time, however with limited income it may be the best option you have for getting around town.

9/24/2011 11:12:28 AM

Quote :

"It's kind of like disinfecting an open wound. Yeah it'll hurt like hell when you pour the alchol in, but it's either going to hurt now or worse later after the wound starts to get infected... "

LOL

this is a naive, simplistic approach to how you determine policies that affect BILLIONS of people (yes, if the us “hurts” it’s going to take the rest of the world with it).

It boggles my mind that people think their folksy adages apply to national politics.

If you want a simple analogy that’s easy to digest, just think about it this way… your body only heals itself in a healthy clean environment with good food etc. If you let banks and businesses and students crumble and collapse, the country has no basis to heal anything. People just get more poor and more destitute, creating a feedback loop of desperation and “disease.”

Thankfully human societies evolved an immune system to help prevent this process: government. A representative government is literally an extension of its citizenry. If the gov works against the country's interest, it’s because a certain percentage of the population has started to act as a virus or cancer and direct the countries immune system to destroy itself.

Stop thinking like a virus, and actually think of ways to FIX things.

9/24/2011 12:12:14 PM

Quote :

"Oh look, Neon back to his old "make up numbers trick" to win an argument. I've never seen this before."

Where have you never seen this? Working in the engineering and construction industry, I can definitely back this up, especially these days as our skilled manual labor is running short already and many of the experts are beginning to retire. Of course, we aren't talking about someone who does local residential toilet repair. However, industrial plumbers, pipers, welders, etc. can make a very good living. The residential ones don't make nearly as much though and that is probably what you are basing your numbers off of is my guess.

Heck some of the areas we are buildings plants in these days they are so starved on skilled manual labor that they are paying $50-60k to start for people who have absolutely 0 prior experience - and that includes paying for the peoples' education to learn the craft on site. Some of the nuclear sites are starting even higher than that.

Of course, this isn't the solution to the overall problem, just stating that his numbers aren't really all that high.

[Edited on September 24, 2011 at 12:17 PM. Reason : ]

9/24/2011 12:17:14 PM

Quote :

"Stop thinking like a virus, and actually think of ways to FIX things."

To FIX the problem, you have to UNDERSTAND the sickness. The problem is over lending and over spending. "forgiving" loans does NOT fix the situation, nor do anyone in an "over their head" debt situation LEARN anything. The government has too much influence in the economy and they need to back off. The theory of supply and demand will work itself out, you've got to have patience. Trying to rush the process via "stimulus packages" often create a false sense of security or progress if it doesn't make the situation worse.

It boggles my mind that people think that it's the government's job to protect its citizens from themselves and provide excessive social programs while trying to create a utopian society where everyone can prosper.

9/24/2011 2:03:14 PM

The theory of supply and demand won't fix anything because there's no such thing as a free market or rational actors outside of laboratory Economics experiments. If you don't want a functioning government, there are places you could go. Surely they're really well off and there's no reason you wouldn't prosper in those places, right?

9/24/2011 3:42:43 PM

Quote :

"If you don't want a functioning government, there are places you could go. "

LOL. If I didn't want a functioning government, I wouldn't have to look no further. This country already fits that bill. I want a government that functions within the parameters and boundaries that it is responsible for and nothing more. The U.S. government has derailed itself from the original foundation in which it was built upon and it's bringing this country down.

9/24/2011 3:51:41 PM

We get the government we deserve.

9/24/2011 4:00:41 PM

Quote :

"Heck some of the areas we are buildings plants in these days they are so starved on skilled manual labor that they are paying $50-60k to start for people who have absolutely 0 prior experience - and that includes paying for the peoples' education to learn the craft on site. Some of the nuclear sites are starting even higher than that."

Links? I have friends who might be interested in jobs exactly like that, and they're willing to move.

9/24/2011 4:12:16 PM

^^^I can't tell if you're being glib or retarded at this point

[Edited on September 24, 2011 at 4:45 PM. Reason : ]

9/24/2011 4:45:31 PM

Quote :

"The U.S. government has derailed itself from the original foundation in which it was built upon and it's bringing this country down."

the original foundation where they said "we the people" but didn't mean "all the people" at the same time?

goodness gracious, the experiment of this country is far from over

9/24/2011 4:57:20 PM

Quote :

"Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-VT) amended the Wall Street Reform law to audit the Fed, pushing the GAO to step in and take a look around. Upon hearing the announcement that the first-ever audit would take place in July, the media was bowled over and nearly every broadcast network and newspaper covered the story. However, the audit’s findings were almost completely overlooked, even with a number as high as $16 trillion staring all of us in the face."

http://www.forbes.com/sites/traceygreenstein/2011/09/20/the-feds-16-trillion-bailouts-under-reported/

If we can surreptitiously give away $16 trillion to foreign and national banks, we should be able to forgive student loan debt.

9/24/2011 8:00:19 PM

Quote :

"Links? I have friends who might be interested in jobs exactly like that, and they're willing to move."

I'll talk to some of the coworkers who were discussing it relating to their projects and see if I can find out exactly which of their projects they were talking about. I do know this is something I have heard/read over and over in construction/engineering/and facilities maintenance magazines and blogs etc. over the past couple of years though.

Off the top of my head I do know that several of the nuclear sites are looking for skilled workers (I think Oconee is here in SC for eample), the north dakota oil business that has sprouted up has been doing it (and is doing the training as well). On a more extreme note, if they are willing to work overseas there is a huge demand for civilian skilled labor in iran or afghanistan (paying oogles of tax-free money) and to a lesser extent in non-war areas like Saudi Arabia, China, India.

In general (relating not to just new construction) a lot of manufacturing facilities in the North/Northeast are running low on O&M type skilled-labor positions, especially younger ones who are interested in learning to work and stay there for a long period of time - that would definitely be a region and industry I would have your friends look.

9/24/2011 9:06:14 PM

I am starting to feel like there's a lot of boohooing about not being able to easily find a job by sitting on your ass and trolling the internet for leads.

When I decided to break out on my own and start my own business, I did a lot of leg work to get in front of people and network like hell to find opportunities. Everyone I chatted with, I made it a point to ask if they knew anyone who could help me progress my goals. I contacted all the local big names in my industry and simply asked for some time to pick their brain.

Sitting on a computer and blasting off emails is not going to cut it. Get on the phone and cold call companies and HR managers. Walk in to businesses and just chat with whoever you can.

ASK FOR OPPORTUNITIES. Be proactive and assertive. People like people, not words on a computer screen.

If you can't hack it in the field of your choice, either try to increase your knowledge and skills by taking classes/certifications or by shadowing and volunteering. If it's still not working out for you, necessity demands that you go where you can find work.

Life isn't fair, but it is what you make of it.

9/25/2011 12:11:04 PM

^+1

9/25/2011 12:16:54 PM

B...but I thought all the jobs were on Craigslist???

9/25/2011 1:20:30 PM

Conflicting information ITT

9/25/2011 1:59:20 PM

Can anyone tell me a rough estimate of what a minimum payment per month for 100k of student loan debt would be?

9/25/2011 2:23:43 PM

Depends on the rate and length of the loan.

9/25/2011 4:04:13 PM

Someone mentioned ~7% rate above. I have no idea what student loan terms are, but at 30 years that is $665 a month to pay off.

Throwing an extra $335 a month on it has you shelling out a rent/house payment worth of income for 13 years.

9/25/2011 6:10:13 PM

Right, I'm not sure what your point is though.

9/26/2011 12:11:46 AM

so can i go get some massive student loans since i don't have any to take advantage of this ridiculousness?

p.s. i haven't read this entire thread

9/26/2011 12:36:30 AM

Quote :

"Can anyone tell me a rough estimate of what a minimum payment per month for 100k of student loan debt would be?"

Mine was $80k a few years ago and my payment was $630 a month. That's a lovely chunk of money I wish I didn't have to pay every month.

9/26/2011 7:08:31 AM

Quote :

"Right, I'm not sure what your point is though."

You have people in this thread with an ideology that they try to fit every individuals situation into and then sit in their ivory tower like people are irresponsible.

The same people saying risk takers made this country great are the same people saying that people are fools for taking loans out for education.

The point is, at $1000/mnth if you're unlucky and you come into a shitty job market you'll be "stuck" for a long time with as debt you can't discharge.

So the ivory tower people say you shouldn't have taken on the debt right after they say the country was founded on risk takers.

It's just one ideological self fellatio after another.

9/26/2011 7:25:32 AM

I think that's why it's called a risk though, because there are possible downfalls...

9/26/2011 9:05:49 AM

Exactly. You have to be prepared to accept the consequences if things don't pan out.

9/26/2011 10:54:27 AM

Quote :

"Can anyone tell me a rough estimate of what a minimum payment per month for 100k of student loan debt would be?"

CFNC has a loan repayment calculator on their website. It makes a few assumptions, but...

$100,000 Stafford at 6.8% for 10 years would be $1,151.02 per month.

Fill in the quantity you know (in this case, 10 years, $100k, and 6.8%) and blank out the "monthly payments" box, to calculate monthly payments. Do the opposite if you know you can afford $X/month to find out how long it would take to pay off your loans at that rate. Example: If you had the same loans but you could afford $4,500/month, you would pay off your loans in 27-months and pay $8,200 worth of interest instead of $38,000 worth of interest if you only made the minimum payments over 10 years.


I don't know if other loan servicers do it this way, but CFNC will push back your required payment due date if you consistently overpay on your loan. After the overpayments = 1-month's worth of payments, they'll push the next required payment date back by 1 month. Nice if you can afford to throw some extra money at your loans as it will create some buffer if you find yourself in a bad situation.


If you haven't done it yet, run a loan amortization scenario and look at the difference in total interest paid between doing the standard (10-year) repayment vs. paying it off ASAP. On huge loans, the interest saved can be tens of thousands of dollars.

[Edited on September 26, 2011 at 11:55 AM. Reason : ]

9/26/2011 11:51:56 AM

I was walking down the street the other day, tripped, fell, and landed in $100k of student loan debt. Not sure how this happened and now I am expected to pay this debt off.

9/26/2011 12:04:54 PM

There are two threads of conversation going on here.

One is about responsibility, discipline, sacrifice, initiative, anti-materialism, delayed gratification, etc...all great things.

But the other line of thinking questions whether or not institutions should be structured in such a way that so many people end up living in a kind of deprived state.

We can all rip apart an individual: you should have done this, you shouldn't have done that, stop doing that, start doing this, etc...but it's not just an individual/personal problem. We have some institutional challenges we need to address. And it's not just people who went to law school when we don't need more lawyers...we've also got semi-literate folks, paying $50,000 for four-year degrees and not learning what they need to make them substantially employable. They'd be much better off starting at a community college, but in some places, the community colleges are overenrolled already. So...what should we do?



And, of course, people are making tons of money off of this system. The schools/"schools" get paid. The banks get paid...forever in some cases. Do they deserve it? Are they creating value? Is the system working the way it should? If not, what can we do in terms of personal decisions or policy decisions to make it work better?

[Edited on September 26, 2011 at 12:50 PM. Reason : ]

9/26/2011 12:29:42 PM

Quote :

"we've also got semi-literate folks, paying $50,000 for four-year degrees and not learning what they need to make them substantially employable"

How is that my problem?

9/26/2011 2:03:35 PM

Quote :

"And, of course, people are making tons of money off of this system. The schools/"schools" get paid. The banks get paid...forever in some cases. Do they deserve it? Are they creating value? Is the system working the way it should? If not, what can we do in terms of personal decisions or policy decisions to make it work better?"

Yeah. A lot of people arguing on behalf of the institutional status quo in this thread. C'mon guys, the banks and universities are on our side!

I mean, I get it. You want your peers to be screwed over permanently, because it means less competition for you. That's human instinct. At the same time, you have to recognize that the system as it exists now, if allowed to continue, will mean a worse future for you as an individual, not just those that bit off more than they could chew.

9/26/2011 2:14:37 PM