Quick! Where's Pack_bryan to come in here and tell me that the guy in the article I posted was fearing for his life and should thus have not been arrested for his crime!

3/25/2012 9:59:47 PM

Can anyone actually confirm if that was real? That would be a little contradicting to the whole "this kid was an angel" defense.


hmmm, Trayvon Slimm Martin is his actual FB page it seems.

Here is his profile pic too.




Looks a little older than the "kid" pics that have been released to the media.

[Edited on March 25, 2012 at 11:06 PM. Reason : ,.]

3/25/2012 11:03:43 PM

I don't understand the relevance of 99% of this thread or the national discourse on the subject.

Maybe Zimmerman's a racist, trigger-happy shithead, or maybe he has some legitimate claim to acting in self-defense. I lean towards the former, but either way a kid is dead and the circumstances were murky enough that the dude should at least have been put in a cell until the police figured shit out (or habeas corpus kicked in, I suppose). The police had probable cause -- an unarmed kid was shot to death and Zimmerman admitted to shooting him. On top of serving justice it would have been the smart move just to prevent the subsequent shit-storm, which as far as I can tell centers around the fact that Zimmerman was cleared by the police from the get-go.

I suspect he'll turn out to be guilty, and hope that Florida hasn't forgotten how much it likes executing people.

---

Even though they're irrelevant, some of the things cropping up in this thread bear responding to:

There's a reason so many forms ask whether or not you are Latino and what your race is. That's because Mexico and the rest of Latin America has an ethnic history similar to our own -- the colonizers were white, and while many of them spawned mixed-race children with natives or slaves, they tended there, as here, to marry within their own color. They were also enthusiastic about importing slaves, so there are plenty of black Latinos as well. "Latino" and "Hispanic" do not mean "brown-skinned person with a Spanish surname."

Quote :

"Should the state not be required to prove you committed murder before throwing you in jail for it? "

Proof of guilt is necessary for a conviction, not for an arrest. Arresting this dude would have prevented most if not all of the subsequent fallout, and it would have been the smart thing to do from a purely justice standpoint.

3/25/2012 11:46:32 PM

At the time, the witness who said he saw Trayvon on top of Zimmerman beating him and the corresponding wounds and wet back substantiated his claim of self defense.

That is why he was not initially arrested.


Although I will agree that he should have at least been taken to the station for formal questioning.

3/26/2012 12:01:36 AM

I don't care if Trayvon Martin had murdered and raped an entire family before walking through that neighborhood.

It is immaterial, since he was not the aggressor in this incident. He was doing nothing aggressive. He was not armed. He was not doing anything illegal. He was threatening no one.

Not to mention Zimmerman would have had no knowledge of that. You try to paint a picture like he was following a man he had just identified from the FBI's Most Wanted list. This is not the case.

He was following a random fucking person that he assumed, based on prejudice, was "up to no good."

The person was not up to no good. And they died due to Zimmerman's actions.

None of this hindsight bullshit does anything to help Zimmerman's case. All it does is attempt to sway public opinion by tarnishing the image of a dead person, which is at best disgusting.

[Edited on March 26, 2012 at 12:56 AM. Reason : ]

3/26/2012 12:54:56 AM

Quote :

""Racist is the new nigger," says Riz Rollins, the writer, DJ, and KEXP personality. "For white people, the only word that begins to approximate the emotional violence a person of color experiences being called a nigger from a white person is 'racist.' It's a trigger for white people that immediately conjures pain, anger, defensiveness—even for white people who are clearly racist. 'Racist' is now a conversation stopper almost like that device where you can skew a conversation by comparing someone to Hitler. It's an automatic slur. And only the sickest racists will own up to the description.""

http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/deeply-embarrassed-white-people-talk-awkwardly-about-race/Content?oid=9747101

3/26/2012 1:37:29 AM

So, it appears that Trayvon took a swing at a bus driver on, or just before, Feb. 21.

According to the Kansas City Star, his suspension was handed down on the day he died (Feb. 26).

http://www.kansascity.com/2012/03/22/3507783/trayvons-parents-paint-portrait.html

Ten-day suspensions are not normal or small potatoes. They are not given for "being in an unauthorized area" or other nonsense the family is spouting. Hitting a bus driver, however, would probably do it.

So it looks like our drug dealer was suspended for 10 days for punching a bus driver on the day he was killed for....being peaceful

Lastly, here are the most common pics of these gentlemen, both taken years ago:



But here are some others that are far more recent:



[Edited on March 26, 2012 at 4:26 AM. Reason : k]

3/26/2012 4:12:49 AM

^OH NO, A HOODY IN THAT LAST PIC

SHOOT HIM

[Edited on March 26, 2012 at 5:45 AM. Reason : .]

3/26/2012 5:45:25 AM

So its ok to randomly shoot drug dealers? I was unaware being a bad person was a murderable offense

3/26/2012 7:55:05 AM

Quote :

"Wait. Was he pinned down on the grass or the pavement? Sure, he could have been on the grass with his head on the paved walkway, but that doesn't sound very likely."

Well, depending on what was in the grass where the fight took place, he could still have a cut from being knocked to the ground. Where I grew up it wasn't uncommon to have roots and rocks that could give you a decent cut if you hit them hard enough.

Quote :

" This is why he should have been taken in - so they could at least document his cuts and scrapes which are almost certainly not helpful anymore after a month (since they were minor)."

Honest question because I haven't been following this, but if he were brought in for formal questioning either that day or at some later date, would there be any record of that beyond whatever the police say? I don't think its procedure to arrest and book people brought in for questioning. Admittedly I would think that if the police had brought him in at one point, they might have said something about that, but perhaps with how this has blown up, they're playing all their cards close to their chest.

Quote :

"If I'm walk-running away from a car following me in a gated community, then I start running on the urging of my girlfriend, where the fuck am I going to run? That's right - a pedestrian walkway."

Eh, if some crazy dude is following me in a car, I'm going to cut through some yards too, fuck trying to outrun him on the street.

Quote :

"How long did it take them to get there? It probably wasn't any more than 15 minutes. "

You would think and hope, but I wouldn't count on it. I've related the story here before, but I've called the cops to report shots fired and bullets coming through my window and it took them 45 minutes to arrive from a sub station which was only a 15 minute walk from my appartment.

Quote :

"Ten-day suspensions are not normal or small potatoes. They are not given for "being in an unauthorized area" or other nonsense the family is spouting. Hitting a bus driver, however, would probably do it. So it looks like our drug dealer was suspended for 10 days for punching a bus driver on the day he was killed for....being peaceful "

None of this is particularly relevant except to demonstrate that the kid might have been capable of fighting. Other than that, Zimmerman wouldn't have known anything else.

[Edited on March 26, 2012 at 8:17 AM. Reason : fdsg]

3/26/2012 8:15:08 AM

Quote :

"Looks a little older than the "kid" pics that have been released to the media."

Yeah, like a year older.

3/26/2012 8:41:04 AM

A black teen being portrayed as NOT a violent, drug dealing, gangster nignog? Surely this is a fabrication, better do some detective work....

AHA,finally...PROOF that Martin was indeed a dangerous (potential) criminal that Zimmerman was fully justified in executing. *a picture of Martin in a hoodie*

3/26/2012 9:21:44 AM

Pursuit of Trayvon with a gun after being told not to is not self-defense. Clearly Zimmerman had time to make this choice and stalk his victim before pulling the trigger. This wasn't standing your ground, it was murder. Listen to the 911 call of Trayvon pleading for help and tell me otherwise.

3/26/2012 12:38:14 PM

When you've got all of the GOP candidates, Conservative talk radio, and even the fucking author of the bill saying that Zimmerman is in the wrong, you really have to question the people who continue to defend him.

3/26/2012 12:47:05 PM

Yeah you do. Zimmerman went looking for trouble and found it.

Its irrelavant what this kid did in his past. At the moment in time he was not breaking any laws and thus should not have been pursued by a vigilante. We aren't in the Wild West anymore.

3/26/2012 12:53:20 PM

Quote :

"Listen to the 911 call of Trayvon pleading for help and tell me otherwise."

I can't. Trayvon didn't plead for help. Zimmerman did. But that must not be reliable, after all, that is just the testimony of the only actual eyewitness in the case.

Quote :

"Its irrelavant what this kid did in his past."

It's quite relevant. For one thing, it wasn't his 'past.' The drug dealer assaulted a bus driver within a week of this incident, and appears to have been suspended for it (or for a marijuana bag, stories vary and records are sealed) on the very day of the incident. That's relevant.

Y'all only think it's irrelevant because of the massive blinders you have on.

Zimmerman didn't know any of this about the guy. That's not what matters.

It does matter that we now know that it was perfectly within Trayvon's character to act as Zimmerman claims. It gives credibility to his story. Raining blows down on Zimmerman seems far-fetched if the English teacher was right that this was a happy kid who 'majored in cheerfulness.' Instead, he had done exactly what Zimmerman claims within his last week.

This is what Zimmerman claims: http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-26/news/os-trayvon-martin-zimmerman-account-20120326_1_arizona-iced-tea-suv-unarmed-black-teenager

So, somehow, y'all think that one assault within days of another alleged assault doesn't have any relevance.

[Edited on March 26, 2012 at 1:37 PM. Reason : s]

3/26/2012 1:34:18 PM

to the extent that:

- it matters who started the physical altercation
- we don't have incontrovertible proof as to who this is

both of their histories and personalities matter.

You can claim it doesn't matter who started the physical altercation. Fine. Then it doesn't matter and Zimmerman is guilty. But not everyone holds that view. Personally, I think there's a public safety issue at hand. If you can have a fight with both parties acting in self-defense at all times, then something about the 'rules' is screwed up and wrong. There should be a punishment for escalation, and we can't punish Treyvon because he's dead. The most plausible story seems to have these both as relatively physically aggressive people who both, at some time, used physical force with self-preservation at least a partial motive. A bad ruling in this case could encourage a dramatic amount of violence in the future.

3/26/2012 1:36:53 PM

the fact that people are looking at the kids past and trying to paint him as a thug who had it coming to him is extremely fucking sad and telling

3/26/2012 1:38:19 PM

What escalation was there by Zimmerman that we can actually prove?

Quote :

"the fact that people are looking at the kids past and trying to paint him as a thug who had it coming to him is extremely fucking sad and telling"

We're not trying to paint him as a thug who had it coming.

We've successfully revealed (not painted) that he was a thug.

What does it reveal? That we want to look into the backgrounds of both sides of a fight? That we believe eyewitnesses who make statements on the day of the attack (as opposed to ear-witnesses who speak well after the fact)?

[Edited on March 26, 2012 at 1:41 PM. Reason : a]

3/26/2012 1:39:11 PM

Quote :

"What escalation was there by Zimmerman that we can actually prove?"

Bringing a gun to a fist fight? I mean, you wanted to stop assuming the best about people, right? So Zimmerman is a racist, aggressive, and trigger happy man while Treyvon is a violent youth who looks up to violent role models.

If two people go into a fist fight and two come out battered and bruised, then whatever. If the only evidence is what the participants say then that's that. But when you have a fist fight and one comes out dead, that's a different story. We should be significantly less generous to Zimmerman in this case because he brought a gun. And used it.

3/26/2012 1:52:08 PM

The witness says he was being beaten while he was pinned down. Zimmerman claims his head was hit against the pavement several times, and that he was attacked from behind.

Continuing to beat a man when he is on the ground, especially if there was pavement under him at any point, is a lethal threat and Zimmerman should be commended for the restraint it took to wait so long to fire.

3/26/2012 2:00:19 PM

You retarded or just trolling?

Its really hard to tell.

3/26/2012 2:07:07 PM

Quote :

"The witness says he was being beaten while he was pinned down. Zimmerman claims his head was hit against the pavement several times, and that he was attacked from behind. "

Wrong.

from your link:

Quote :

"Zimmerman told them he lost sight of Trayvon and was walking back to his SUV when Trayvon approached him from the left rear, and they exchanged words."

Even Zimmerman's account doesn't support what you're trying to say.

3/26/2012 2:07:19 PM

^^^I wish you were trolling, but I'm about 99.7% sure that you aren't

sad

[Edited on March 26, 2012 at 2:08 PM. Reason : wow.]

3/26/2012 2:07:35 PM

So is your problem with me that I believe the only witness we have?

3/26/2012 2:11:45 PM

Quote :

"So is your problem with me that I believe the only witness we have?"

You said something not just slightly or subjectively wrong, but outright wrong according to Zimmerman's statements. You still need more help?

3/26/2012 2:12:30 PM

I got it - latch onto one thing I copied wrong from his statement, and ignore the rest of the open-and-shut case I've provided.

3/26/2012 2:16:49 PM

Quote :

"Pursuit of Trayvon with a gun after being told not to is not self-defense. "

Unless he was chasing him with the gun drawn (and thus threatening deadly force), that he had or didn't have a gun on him while pursuing is irrelevant. One question to be answered though was whether he had a right and reason to be following him. Do you have a right to follow someone you believe has committed or will be committing a crime? Obviously this is all on a continuum which is why these laws usually have a "reasonable person" standard. You should legally be allowed to follow the stranger with a crow bar poking around your neighbor's windows and ask him what he's doing there, you shouldn't be allowed to follow Joe Random just because you don't like how he looks.

Quote :

"Listen to the 911 call of Trayvon pleading for help and tell me otherwise."

Wasn't it already established by Trayvon's father that the voice on the call wasn't his kid?

Quote :

"you really have to question the people who continue to defend him."

He may be wrong that the stand your ground law applies, that doesn't mean that this was or wasn't self defense however. The stand your ground law is about people not having a duty to retreat from an attack when they otherwise have a lawful right to be where they are. If you are however already in immediate danger for your life, you always had the right to defend yourself. Even before stand your ground, the girl being raped by the mugger had a right to deadly force. She didn't have to kick him off and run away first.

Quote :

"Its irrelavant what this kid did in his past."

It's only relevant to the degree that it demonstrates a claim of being attacked by the kid is not out of the realm of possibility. It has no relevance however on whether Zimmerman had a right or reason to follow the kid in the first place.

Quote :

"the fact that people are looking at the kids past and trying to paint him as a thug who had it coming to him is extremely fucking sad and telling"

No one is trying to paint him as a thug (with the possible exception of pack_bryan, whom you should be ignoring anyway). But, when the entirety of the self defense claim pretty much rests on being attacked by the kid, it is relevant that the kid was not just a 100 lb soaking wet, sweet innocent choir boy, who's never harmed someone in their life. Is it plausible that the kid could have attacked Zimmerman. If he's never thrown a punch before in his life? Probably not. If he's been suspended for fighting? Much more plausible.

Quote :

"Bringing a gun to a fist fight?"

Is not escalation any more than it would be escalation if Zimmerman was a black belt in 14 different martial arts. Escalation is whether more force than was reasonably necessary to stop the assault was employed. The deadly force standard is whether a reasonable person in the same situation with the same information believe they are in immediate danger of death or great bodily harm.

My problem with the self defense claim is that it requires the presumption that rather than continuing to run away or stop and confront Zimmerman and ask him why he's following him, that Trayvon hid out of sight and then jumped Zimmerman. Even if this kid is a hot head, that seems like it would be an odd thing to do. Some random guy is following you and that pisses you off, so you're going to jump the guy and try and take him on armed with a bag of skittles?

3/26/2012 2:19:03 PM

you have a lot of guns in your photo gallery.

[Edited on March 26, 2012 at 2:22 PM. Reason : guns. i was expecting to see images of tulips]

3/26/2012 2:19:05 PM

Quote :

"I got it - latch onto one thing I copied wrong from his statement, and ignore the rest of the open-and-shut case I've provided."

Your entire thing was pivoting on Treyvon surprise attacking Zimmerman. Do you really want people to insert assumptions about the parts of your argument that are wrong? That does not turn out well.

Quote :

"The deadly force standard is whether a reasonable person in the same situation with the same information believe they are in immediate danger of death or great bodily harm."

Did Treyvon feel the same immediate danger?

[Edited on March 26, 2012 at 2:23 PM. Reason : ]

3/26/2012 2:21:42 PM

the zimmerman guy is a wetback. why are all the darkies calling him a cracker. i are confused cracker.



[Edited on March 26, 2012 at 2:24 PM. Reason : -]

3/26/2012 2:24:28 PM

Quote :

"Your entire thing was pivoting on Treyvon surprise attacking Zimmerman. Do you really want people to insert assumptions about the parts of your argument that are wrong? That does not turn out well."

It doesn't affect my case at all, and as you'll see - I had not said he was attacked from behind before that post, and I've posted a lot in this thread. I typed 'attacked' when I meant 'approached' - and I made that mistake once.

My argument worked in the dozen+ posts before that one, and it still works after it. You know you have nothing because you're not addressing anything else.

3/26/2012 2:26:23 PM

pwnt

3/26/2012 2:32:19 PM

Shooting an unarmed teenager for no reason: Stand your ground

Fighting back against a stalking self-appointed neighborhood watchman: Asking to be shot


Seriously, if this was a news story about white kid managing to punch a black mugger before getting shot, everyone would be cheering his bravery.

Quote :

"Continuing to beat a man when he is on the ground, especially if there was pavement under him at any point, is a lethal threat and Zimmerman should be commended for the restraint it took to wait so long to fire."

Zimmerman, a fully grown man, easily had 100 pounds on this kid, and furthermore he was chasing the kid to begin with, that's aggression. If you got mugged in an alley, but threw the first punch when it was clear what the mugger was up to, would you defend the mugger for pressing assault charges?


[Edited on March 26, 2012 at 2:36 PM. Reason : .]

3/26/2012 2:33:18 PM

fight back???



this is slowly turning into some grassy knoll shit. what else happened while you were there str8foolish??

3/26/2012 2:36:18 PM

Shut the fuck up pack_bryan you're just upset you weren't in Zimmerman's shoes.

3/26/2012 2:37:09 PM

i'll 'stand my ground' and wait for you to attack since u so mad lol

[Edited on March 26, 2012 at 2:40 PM. Reason : ,]

3/26/2012 2:37:30 PM

I mean seriously, you go from thread to thread posting pictures like the one above doing your best to make sure everybody knows you think blacks are dangerous, criminal savages bent on annihilating the white man. It's really, really fucking obvious which horse is yours in this race, and it's the racist, paranoid, black-kid-shooting horse.

3/26/2012 2:40:08 PM

Quote :

"I typed 'attacked' when I meant 'approached' - and I made that mistake once. "

According to the girlfriend's testimony, Treyvon was approached by Zimmerman before the verbal exchange happened. So are you presenting this as your view? That's a pretty shitty thing to do when there's testimony pointing in both directions. Particularly when both testimonies are dripping with self-interest and loyalty factors.

The only thing the accounts agree on is that there was a verbal exchange. They don't agree on what was said or who attacked who after that.

3/26/2012 2:47:31 PM

Quote :

"According to the girlfriend's testimony, Treyvon was approached by Zimmerman before the verbal exchange happened. So are you presenting this as your view? That's a pretty shitty thing to do when there's testimony pointing in both directions. Particularly when both testimonies are dripping with self-interest and loyalty factors. The only thing the accounts agree on is that there was a verbal exchange. They don't agree on what was said or who attacked who after that."

We have ONE eyewitness. He was very clear about the situation - Trayvon had Zimmerman pinned and was punching him repeatedly, while Zimmerman was screaming for help. That's our eyewitness, who spoke the day of the attack and called 911 for Zimmerman's sake.

You believe the girlfriend of a participant, who saw nothing, and heard nothing except the beginning of a verbal exchange. And who didn't speak until much later, I believe.

Those are not equal witnesses. There are no loyalty factors or self-interest for the guy who saw the thing go down (or, rather, Zimmerman being down).

Why is the eyewitness continually ignored?

[Edited on March 26, 2012 at 2:55 PM. Reason : a]

3/26/2012 2:54:38 PM

str8foolish i knew you wouldn't be able to contain yourself.

just stop being a pussy come out and say that you want to shoot me or some random white people or something.

3/26/2012 2:59:34 PM

Quote :

"There are no loyalty factors or self-interest for the guy who saw the thing go down (or, rather, Zimmerman being down)."

Are you talking about Joe Oliver, close friend of Zimmerman's of six years?

Quote :

"str8foolish i knew you wouldn't be able to contain yourself. just stop being a pussy come out and say that you want to shoot me or some random white people or something."

Aaand you're back with your classic "Anti-racism means anti-white you race traitor!" shtick. Go write Zimmerman some more fanmail you psycho.

[Edited on March 26, 2012 at 3:03 PM. Reason : .]

3/26/2012 3:02:36 PM

Quote :

"You believe the girlfriend of a participant, who saw nothing, and heard nothing except the beginning of a verbal exchange."

Wow, thanks so much. Here I was not knowing what to believe. It's nice that you know what I believe and are eager to tell me.

Quote :

"We have ONE eyewitness."

There are 2 living people with any account of the confrontation. I know what John's testimony is. You don't need to remind me.

Quote :

"Why is the eyewitness continually ignored?"

You know there was another eyewitness that saw Zimmerman on top, right? Are you forgetting about that?

3/26/2012 3:03:22 PM

Lol, hilarious update:

Breitbart blogger scours facebook for Trayvon Martin facebook photos that make him look criminal. Finds it, posts it.

Oh wait, except it's another Trayvon Martin. Breitbart blogger, upon realizing they all don't look the same, admits mistake:

http://www.streetwisepundit.com/wrong-trayvon-martin-photo-on-facebook.html

3/26/2012 3:07:54 PM

No. I'm talking about the witness who, for now, we only know as John.

Quote :

"You know there was another eyewitness that saw Zimmerman on top, right? Are you forgetting about that?"

Who? Link?

[Edited on March 26, 2012 at 3:09 PM. Reason : a]

3/26/2012 3:08:46 PM

ok so just having taken the concealed carry class let me put in my 2 cents.

this has NOTHING to do with who started the fight. it has EVERYTHING to do with how the fight was escalated.

unfortunately we will never know how the fight escalated because no one saw it, except for a portion of it when Trayvon was on top of Zimmerman beating him up. At that point Trayvon was the aggressor (he was no longer acting in self defense if he was in fact on top of Zimmerman punching him). Even if Zimmerman was the initial aggressor, it doesn't matter. The facts seem to show that the altercation escalated until Trayvon became the aggressor, which under NC Law Zimmerman would have been justified in pulling his weapon and firing. If Trayvon would have instead diffused the altercation and walked away then he wold no longer be the aggressor and Zimmerman would not have been justified in shooting.

3/26/2012 3:09:30 PM

^dude you can't come on this forum with facts and act like an educated person

you're about 5 seconds from getting your ass banned and thrown out of here.


str8foolish says "hi you nra gun toting white faggot motherfucker"


[Edited on March 26, 2012 at 3:16 PM. Reason : -]

3/26/2012 3:12:27 PM

Quote :

"No. I'm talking about the witness who, for now, we only know as John."

An unsworn statement from an anonymous "witness" who refuses to give his name or be shown on television? Sounds legit.

3/26/2012 3:14:32 PM

I don't get how the "aggressor" role switches back and forth. If I fight a mugger, am I supposed to stop and run the moment I gain the advantage? And seriously, THAT advantage makes him the aggressor, but not using a fucking gun to kill somebody you aggressed against?

[Edited on March 26, 2012 at 3:17 PM. Reason : .]

3/26/2012 3:16:46 PM

Quote :

"An unsworn statement from an anonymous "witness" who refuses to give his name or be shown on television? Sounds legit."

You don't know that it was unsworn, and he's not anonymous to the police. He's anonymous to the public because the police still haven't revealed everything they have - that, in itself should give people caution in judging this case.

Why would he refuse to be shown on television or go public? The answer is really easy.

3/26/2012 3:18:19 PM