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4/27/2012 7:36:26 AM

last post

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"^^ methinks you are grossly overestimating the value of a creative-writing or Master's of Puppetry degree. Education is great, if you get a worthwhile degree. Unless someone creates a vastly important machine that only takes input in the form of a puppet show or a short story, then the putative worth of those degrees will always be damned near zero in the scenarios you describe. The fact that student loan debt can't be removed in bankruptcy is why people are able to get worthless degrees in the first place. Otherwise, maybe they'd go to a trade school and learn something that will actually land them a job."

How many people are getting those degrees? Arts is worthless to you? Entertainment is worthless to you? I actually think society doesn't have enough artists so people come up with bland, uncreative ideas for everything. These degrees have some value.

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"What does this mean? I mean yes combat missions have gone up considerably in the Post 9/11 world, but it's still fairly easy to get a non-combat role. "

I believe if we had an educated military instead of sending the nation's scoundrels into combat, we'd have a lot less incidences like posing with dead bodies and such. Everyone in the military should know history, political science, and science.

4/27/2012 7:48:54 AM

4/27/2012 7:51:26 AM

I don't mind soldiers posing for pictures with dead enemies. 1) They're dead, so it's not like they care 2) It's our enemy, so it's not like we care.

4/27/2012 8:14:30 AM

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"I believe if we had an educated military instead of sending the nation's scoundrels into combat, we'd have a lot less incidences like posing with dead bodies and such. Everyone in the military should know history, political science, and science."

1) Denigrating everyone in the military as a scoundrel is downright offensive.
2) Even with a better educated military, these incidents would still occur. People snap, especially in these situations. There's not much we can do to completely prevent these things, but we can lessen their occurrence by not putting people into harm's way as much.
3) There are far more people in the military behaving admirably than not overseas. Thousands of times more. They just don't get press when they go out and give an Iraqi kid a bar of chocolate.

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"How many people are getting those degrees?"

Enough for them to be popping up in major news pieces lamenting the fact that they can't get a job with a Master's of Puppetry degree.

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"Arts is worthless to you? Entertainment is worthless to you?"

Not at all. They are important. That doesn't mean some degrees in them aren't worthless. Like I said, until someone invents a massively important machine that only takes as input a puppet show or a good short story, then the worth of those degrees is pretty damned low. Sure, go take those degrees if they interest you. Just don't expect to be able to make a living with what you learned. In an ideal world, lenders would be evaluating candidates based on their ability to earn money with the degree they are seeking. Surely you don't think everyone who graduates with a creative writing degree is going to immediately land a job making even 40k.

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"I actually think society doesn't have enough artists so people come up with bland, uncreative ideas for everything."

And a creative writing major isn't going to help with that. A minor? Maybe. Major, not at all. Microsoft isn't going to hire a creative writing grad to work on software. Apple isn't going to hire a MS in puppetry grad to build phones. Cisco isn't going to hire a Peace War and Defense grad to build the next router. Please, tell me what arena a creative writing major specifically qualifies you to get a job, by itself.

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"These degrees have some value."

Unfortunately, society and the job market disagree with you. The degrees may have some value somewhere, just not with employers, and when it comes to being gainfully employed and able to pay a loan back, that's kind of what counts.

4/27/2012 9:10:02 AM

I'd like to understand how you think "educating" everyone, or nearly everyone, will truly benefit us and outweigh the debt it will incur. Educating those who aren't smart enough, educating those who are motivated, trying to educate those who don't care, etc. doesn't seem like it will have any affect.

4/27/2012 9:15:56 AM

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"1) Denigrating everyone in the military as a scoundrel is downright offensive."

I never said everyone in the military was a scoundrel. Everyone in the military isn't even uneducated. Many of them haveelite education but many of them are also scoundrels.

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"ut we can lessen their occurrence by not putting people into harm's way as much."

and by educating them so that they see the enemy as people just like they are people. Currently, much of our military has been desensitized to the humanity of the enemy. Education would curb this problem.

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"Enough for them to be popping up in major news pieces lamenting the fact that they can't get a job with a Master's of Puppetry degree."

news is sensationalist and always reports rare findings. there probably are only a handful of people with masters in puppetry degrees.

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"ot at all. They are important. That doesn't mean some degrees in them aren't worthless. Like I said, until someone invents a massively important machine that only takes as input a puppet show or a good short story, then the worth of those degrees is pretty damned low. Sure, go take those degrees if they interest you. Just don't expect to be able to make a living with what you learned. In an ideal world, lenders would be evaluating candidates based on their ability to earn money with the degree they are seeking. Surely you don't think everyone who graduates with a creative writing degree is going to immediately land a job making even 40k."

Monetary worth isn't the only type of societal worth but for some reason, its the only kind you see. This is why creativity is fading in our society.

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"And a creative writing major isn't going to help with that. A minor? Maybe. Major, not at all. Microsoft isn't going to hire a creative writing grad to work on software. Apple isn't going to hire a MS in puppetry grad to build phones. Cisco isn't going to hire a Peace War and Defense grad to build the next router. Please, tell me what arena a creative writing major specifically qualifies you to get a job, by itself. "

Who said it had to be a tech job or an engineering job? I see ads written for these companies all of the time. Where do creative new ideas for apps come from? Where do ergonomic design ideas come from? There is more to life than tech and engineering.

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"I'd like to understand how you think "educating" everyone, or nearly everyone, will truly benefit us and outweigh the debt it will incur. Educating those who aren't smart enough, educating those who are motivated, trying to educate those who don't care, etc. doesn't seem like it will have any affect."

Being uneducated is like being blind. Its really worse when you don't have the ability to interpret the world and current events. It leaves you vulnerable to fraud, brainwashing and corruption.

4/27/2012 1:14:34 PM

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"The reason you can't discharge a student loan in bankruptcy is because the day after graduation every student would file for bankruptcy."

I'm not sure what's worse: the fact that you think people would think the best idea upon graduating is to ruin their credit and make themselves damned near unemployable, or the fact that you think bankruptcy courts would just forgive any and all debts, no questions asked, to every single person who comes in the door.

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"I never said everyone in the military was a scoundrel."

you damn near implied it. I think we send a little more than just "the nation's scoundrels" off to war in the military.

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"and by educating them so that they see the enemy as people just like they are people. Currently, much of our military has been desensitized to the humanity of the enemy. Education would curb this problem."

lessen it, sure. Eliminate it? no. because, as I said, people snap, especially in a warzone. Thus, the reason I said we should simply reduce exposure to warzones.

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"Monetary worth isn't the only type of societal worth but for some reason, its the only kind you see."

When you're talking about the ability to pay off a loan, which, you know, REQUIRES MONEY, it kind of makes sense to talk about things in terms of monetary worth, don't you think? I'm not saying to make creative writing and puppetry degrees unavailable or to eliminate them. I'm saying that if you go into them, expect to have trouble making money with those degrees, because employers, by and large, don't want them. I don't think I'm taking crazy pills by pointing that out, dude.

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"Who said it had to be a tech job or an engineering job? I see ads written for these companies all of the time."

Made by people with business and advertising degrees, not creative writing and puppetry majors.

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"Where do creative new ideas for apps come from?"

Usually software engineers, no creative writing and puppetry majors. That's why Microsoft and Apple don't hire creative writing and puppetry majors to come up with application ideas.

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"Where do ergonomic design ideas come from?"

From human factors engineers and other engineers, not from creative writing and puppetry majors.

4/27/2012 2:01:30 PM

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"I believe if we had an educated military instead of sending the nation's scoundrels into combat, we'd have a lot less incidences like posing with dead bodies and such. Everyone in the military should know history, political science, and science."

Our military is educated. The officers tend to know history and political science, especially the higher ranking flag officers. The NCOs tend to be subject matter experts, which is fine, that's all they need to be. There are many programs for them to learn more with tuition assistance, GI Bill, and other educational programs. The junior enlisted (E-4 and below) tend to be out of high school and are still learning their job and how to be leaders, but the same programs are there for them.

However, it is clear you have a hard-on for any anti-military propaganda, so I'm not sure why I would expect you know that.

4/27/2012 2:29:46 PM

thread derailment?

4/27/2012 2:33:56 PM

Engineers make things but they don'talways have the creative minds to come up with the idea. Artists can come up with amazing designs for buildings cars and products that may or may not be possible. Engineers bring those images into reality. Both are important. Without artists, we get the boring stuff that seems to dominate the world today.

You keep talking about puppet majors. How many puppet majors are there currently enrolled? Enough to say virtually nobody. Stop cherry picking about a story you saw on the news to argue in this thread. Most of the people with debt have real degrees in important areas and yes many of them can't pay so they should be given an amount they can pay. This is why we have this thread in the first place. If they graduate, they should only have to pay the loan back once they get a job that can pay it back. Maybe the uni should pay it back otherwise?

4/27/2012 2:34:58 PM

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"Where do creative new ideas for apps come from?" Usually software engineers"

This is false.

4/27/2012 2:37:56 PM

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"Engineers make things but they don'talways have the creative minds to come up with the idea. Artists can come up with amazing designs for buildings cars and products that may or may not be possible."

Where do creative writing and puppetry majors fit into this spectrum? Why aren't they being hired left and right to come up with these ideas?

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"Most of the people with debt have real degrees in important areas and yes many of them can't pay so they should be given an amount they can pay."

I agree. You are the one who derailed the thread talking about how important creative writing and puppetry degrees are. Now you are trying to back out of it. Creative writing and puppetry degrees are only examples of degrees that are pretty much worthless from a job-hunt perspective. You take issue with me calling them worthless, but employers are the ones ultimately deciding their worth. Don't rage against me because employers the world over don't see a need for a particular set of degrees.

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"If they graduate, they should only have to pay the loan back once they get a job that can pay it back. Maybe the uni should pay it back otherwise?"

Absolutely not. it should instead be that the loan originators determine the likelihood of a person being able to pay back the loan and then hand out loans accordingly. That's not happening right now.

4/27/2012 2:48:57 PM

https://www.npr.org/2018/08/27/642199524/student-loan-watchdog-quits-blames-trump-administration7

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"The federal official in charge of protecting student borrowers from predatory lending practices has stepped down. In a scathing resignation letter, Seth Frotman, who until now was the Student Loan Ombudsman at the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau says current leadership "has turned its back on young people and their financial futures." The letter was addressed to Mick Mulvaney, the bureau's acting director. In the letter, obtained by NPR, Frotman accuses Mulvaney and the Trump administration of undermining the CFPB and its ability to protect student borrowers. "Unfortunately, under your leadership, the Bureau has abandoned the very consumers it is tasked by Congress with protecting," it read. "Instead, you have used the Bureau to serve the wishes of the most powerful financial companies in America." The letter raises serious questions about the federal government's willingness to oversee the $1.5 trillion student loan industry and to protect student borrowers."

8/27/2018 10:44:47 AM

Trump and his people view college graduates and colleges in general as liberal hotbeds. Why would they want to do anything for the people who they think are destroying the country?

I mean this is not surprising.

8/27/2018 10:51:40 AM

republicans...do you even college, bro?

8/27/2018 4:28:03 PM

Hey, I still owe 20k. If someone wants to forgive that then go ahead. I'm just saying this isn't surprising seeing who Trump and his supporters are.

8/27/2018 4:37:20 PM

just saying that it's dumb that republicans hate colleges but go to colleges.

8/27/2018 5:22:08 PM