Quote :

"you people who advocate for the killing of the most defenseless people in the world make me physically ill. that's what abortion is. this is not coming from the religious right... this is science. the most logical place to identify an individual organism is at conception."

An embryo or fetus is not a person. You can't just call it science. And your dishonesty is showing by switching terms between your two claims. 'Person' and 'Organism' are not the same thing.

7/3/2013 3:32:53 PM

I guess the GOP sees the influx of poor kids with few options as a good thing.. gotta keep the pipeline of future soliders to send to countries with resources that they can die for. they're expendable after all.

7/3/2013 3:39:14 PM

The poor are also less educated and more easily influenced by religion/nationalism/etc.

7/3/2013 3:40:03 PM

The poor is even MORE likely to be on some sort of government assistance, and likely to vote democrat rather than republican. So all of your arguments are invalid.

And Smath is correct. Pro-life has the moral high ground over Pro-choice. No one can deny this. However most people don't live by a moral code, but act more realistically.

7/3/2013 3:59:01 PM

abortions should be encouraged and paid for by taxpayers

7/3/2013 4:18:24 PM

Quote :

"And Smath is correct. Pro-life has the moral high ground over Pro-choice. No one can deny this."

uhh yeah you can absolutely deny this

Quote :

"abortions should be encouraged and paid for by taxpayers"

agree

[Edited on July 3, 2013 at 4:22 PM. Reason : .]

7/3/2013 4:20:46 PM

Quote :

"MORE likely to be on some sort of government assistance, and likely to vote democrat rather than republican"

the poor, rural south says hell naw we dont

7/3/2013 4:38:50 PM

Poor rural everywhere

7/3/2013 4:47:53 PM

Quote :

"The poor is even MORE likely to be on some sort of government assistance, and likely to vote democrat rather than republican. So all of your arguments are invalid."

I don't actually believe that to be the case for North Carolina.

Quote :

"And Smath is correct. Pro-life has the moral high ground over Pro-choice. No one can deny this. However most people don't live by a moral code, but act more realistically."

I deny it. Overriding a woman's bodily autonomy for a blastocyst/embryo/fetus is morally reprehensible.

7/3/2013 4:47:59 PM

Pro-life my ass. They have no problem letting you starve after your born.

7/3/2013 5:12:45 PM

Or killing you if you commit a crime

or are an innocent victim of military action

because fuck all those people
_________________________

but really its a silly phrase because pro-choice people are not pro-death or pro-abortion

7/3/2013 5:24:20 PM

Quote :

"The poor is even MORE likely to be on some sort of government assistance, and likely to vote democrat rather than republican."

< tinfoilhat > Except the children that will be born because abortion is regulated out of existence are also more likely to be felons who can't vote and can be ferried into for-profit prisons. < /tinfoilhat >

[Edited on July 3, 2013 at 6:20 PM. Reason : crazycode vs html]

7/3/2013 6:20:06 PM

Why don't we just admit that abortion is a soft form of eugenics?

7/3/2013 6:37:55 PM

^
with the very important difference that it is the parents' choice and not the government's

7/3/2013 6:40:30 PM

Quote :

"Why don't we just admit that abortion is a soft form of eugenics?"

[quote]

is this a bad thing?

7/3/2013 7:44:33 PM

Quote :

"An embryo or fetus is not a person. You can't just call it science. And your dishonesty is showing by switching terms between your two claims. 'Person' and 'Organism' are not the same thing."

But it most certainly is alive and human. I know you want to quibble about the word "person" so that you don't have to actually address the point being made, and it's sad. At least have the courage and be forward enough to say that it's life about which you don't give a damn. YOUR dishonesty is shown by avoiding the point and engaging in semantic shenanigans.


Having said that, fuck this bill, lol

7/4/2013 12:00:54 AM

^^ The level of discourse on this board never ceases to amaze me.

7/4/2013 8:18:57 AM

^^Any part of my body severed, then artificially pumped with blood and prevented from necrotizing would fit your definition of "alive" and "human". Human but not a human being. I'm not quibbling, personhood is actually the most important aspect (next to the bodily autonomy of the woman) and calling a blastocyst a human being or a person or that it can be "murdered" is asinine to the extreme.

That's all I'm addressing here. The sliminess of calling abortion murder. I already said in this thread that I still wouldn't be for preventing a woman from aborting a fully grown person that was magically transported inside her. So your cries of dishonesty on my part ring pretty fucking hollow.


[Edited on July 4, 2013 at 9:27 AM. Reason : .]

7/4/2013 9:08:26 AM

Quote :

"Wolfman Tim All American 9229 Posts user info edit post Why don't we just admit that abortion is a soft form of eugenics? 7/3/2013 6:37:55 PM "

It's not

If it is, it's not working.

7/4/2013 1:29:27 PM

it's certainly helping

7/4/2013 1:33:57 PM

Is a "person" born without a brain (only a brain stem) a person? Sure, it's alive and human... but a person? Surely not.

It's 5 weeks after conception when the spinal cord develops synapses and 2 months when brain waves are detected.

[Edited on July 4, 2013 at 2:24 PM. Reason : .]

7/4/2013 2:22:50 PM

YOU GUYS SHOULD TAKE THIS DISCUSSION TO THE ABORTION THREAD. THERE IS A THREAD ABOUT THIS TOPIC

7/4/2013 3:00:59 PM

Quote :

"calling a blastocyst a human being or a person or that it can be "murdered" is asinine to the extreme."

disagree 100%. is it a fully developed person? of course not. is a 1 year old a fully developed person either? 5 year old? 10 year old? 17 year old? 21 year old? do brainwave patterns change over time depending on level of development? (yes)

There should be a level of protection for everyone, especially the young and helpless.

7/4/2013 3:27:59 PM

Wrong thread

7/4/2013 6:11:29 PM

Quote :

"Any part of my body severed, then artificially pumped with blood and prevented from necrotizing would fit your definition of "alive" and "human"."

If we allow you to put words in my mouth, then sure.

7/6/2013 1:48:37 AM

WRONG THREAD

This is not the abortion thread

7/6/2013 1:53:49 AM

7/6/2013 1:56:09 AM

Here is how we are about to be screwed by the NC GOP's tax/budget reforms:

http://www.journalnow.com/opinion/editorials/article_ccc7c6b0-e809-11e2-9a3f-0019bb30f31a.html

Quote :

"Senate President Pro Tem Phil Berger, R-Rockingham, defended his chamber’s latest tax plan last week, saying there will be plenty of new revenue to sustain state services. On closer examination, Berger’s numbers look anything but conservative. He’s projecting 4.5-percent annual revenue growth even after cutting taxes so significantly. That’s not a cautious, or conservative, approach to state budgeting. It borders on recklessness. The legislature’s Fiscal Research Division says revenues have increased, on average, 3.1 percent annually over the past decade, and that includes several strong, pre-recession years. Berger, no doubt, believes that the Senate changes will spark growth, but he also believed that two years ago, after the first session in which Republicans controlled the legislature. He and his lieutenants predicted rapid job growth that did not happen. The Senate tax plan reduces projected state revenues by $963 million a year, and if a fu-ture General Assembly were forced to cut that much from the state budget in 2014, 2015 or afterward, it would only compound the damage that has already been done to our schools, community colleges and universities. There are also factors of inflation and pop-ulation growth, both of which raise state spending, even in growth years."

Dynamic scoring and the cult of the tax-cut tooth fairy

In the very near future revenues will be too low to cover the state's expenses (especially if our economy keeps putzing along). No biggie, it just means more austerity. I think we all know education, the environment, and infrastructure will get slammed. This makes the state less attractive to high-end technology businesses that have been a primary driver of our state's growth for the past decade; companies and the intelligent will slowly leave what used to be the moderate, purple jewel of the South. Of course, this creates a vicious cycle leading to more dropping revenues the following year and the year after until NC is the third world backwater that these legislators seem to be jonesing for.



Granted the final budget reforms may not look exactly as Berger has proposed, but we REALLY REALLY REALLY need to be on guard that whatever they approve is based in reality and not wishful thinking.

7/9/2013 8:58:37 AM

You should run for office on the let's raise taxes platform. You'd totally win.

7/9/2013 9:45:50 AM

I'd probably frame it more along the lines of increasing our state rank in k-12 per pupil spending from 48th in the nation, restoring the UNC system to prominence, and building infrastructure to improve quality of life and to bring our state into the 21st century. No doubt all of those would attract businesses to invest.

Regardless of how you view that debate the bottom line (and main argument I was making) is we need a heavy dose of reality when we are forming the state budget. Cutting taxes and then projecting a 1.5% increase in revenues the following year is a recipe for disaster we've seen before and that BS needs to be called out for what it is. I may hate the senate budget and tax ideas, but the least I can ask for is for them to be grounded in reality instead of their ideological pipe dreams

7/9/2013 11:33:23 AM

You guys just come up here to Virginia already, it's better here

7/9/2013 7:11:40 PM

^come on now, is it really that much better?

Didn't VA take a huge rightward turn into crazytown a few years ago (see: the current Attorney General, now running for Governor) but are now swinging back to a more moderate place?

VA and NC have similar problems, politics, and demographics so I can only hope that NC is running just a few years behind.

7/10/2013 8:22:21 AM

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2013/07/10/opinion/the-decline-of-north-carolina.html?h=LAQH5ByoB&s=1&

7/10/2013 9:17:39 AM

http://www.wral.com/house-committee-approves-new-version-of-abortion-limitation-bill/12646999/

7/10/2013 2:48:10 PM

and now the Senate has approved drug testing for public assistance applicants

god damn I hate them so hard

they're so proud of their ignorance

7/10/2013 3:20:51 PM

bout time

7/10/2013 5:33:14 PM

Where's that study that was done that showed how much money it'll cost the state to test benefits-recipients?

7/10/2013 5:48:24 PM

but its a moral imperative!

7/10/2013 6:30:42 PM

when has cost-benefit ever mattered with anything related to the war on drugs?

7/10/2013 6:53:19 PM

There's also that pesky 4th amendment to the constitution.....damn

7/10/2013 7:09:46 PM

4th has nothing to do with it as long as it is not used to prosecute applicant

7/10/2013 7:39:54 PM

Quote :

"VA and NC have similar problems, politics, and demographics so I can only hope that NC is running just a few years behind."

VA does have an ever expanding NoVA and VaBeach region. Do we have population growth like that to swing it in such a way?

7/10/2013 7:53:51 PM

let's hope not

7/10/2013 8:00:55 PM

^^^ the federal court that heard the Florida case disagrees with you. I'm sure if this bill becomes law it will get an injunction as well.

^^i actually didn't realize that was responsible for their swing. To answer your question: maybe the triangle or triad? I thought maybe it was just a typical pendulum swing they were experiencing up there. Perhaps it's just wishful thinking that we will experience the same.

7/10/2013 8:38:13 PM

I think part of the moderation can be explained by this graph:


http://vaperforms.virginia.gov/indicators/education/edAttainment.php

Having areas like NoVa and Hapton Roads attracts an unusually high number of educated folks and I think that has had a lot to do with keeping politics fairly "stable"

7/10/2013 9:04:14 PM

If private companies were not allowed to drug test as grounds for employment then my opinion would change.

7/10/2013 9:08:35 PM

I am just wondering when the mass exodus of teachers will begin with no pay raises and no compensation for having a a masters. NC already has one of the worst public K-12 education systems in the country (46th I believe).

7/10/2013 11:38:20 PM

It is already happening.

7/11/2013 12:01:08 AM

Smath74 is a teacher

(I think that makes my point)

7/11/2013 6:42:03 AM

That's a point that needs to be made until he leaves this site or finds a new career.

7/11/2013 2:51:02 PM