The gov. does have an obligation to not make them less affordable... it would be like charging a poll tax or having free speech zones.

5/16/2013 12:21:53 PM

Gun insurance is a great idea. Insurance companies will conduct more aggressive background checks and maintain better records than any government database could hope to achieve. And since they are private companies not subject to any constitutional restrictions, they can be far more conservative in their approvals and reject the poor altogether, without the shadowy county mounty permitting system in place today.

5/16/2013 12:23:30 PM

and then apart of "gun-owners' insurance" would require that all guns be registered with said insurance company, similar to cars with their VIN numbers. who's to say that registration is not then used for nefarious reasons? who's to say how that data is stored and whether secure from the public and/or government? too dicey.

5/16/2013 1:03:48 PM

Quote :

"The gov. does have an obligation to not make them less affordable... it would be like charging a poll tax or having free speech zones."

The government can tax newspapers without infringing on the freedom of press, wouldn't that be a more apt comparison?

Quote :

"the next step to defend it then would be to show how the $250k requirement is not arbitrary or capricious, so show what it is based on"

I think they could prove that, from what I've seen the cost of an average gun related homicide is several million, while an accident is just a few thousand, so 1/4 mil sounds reasonable.

Quote :

"who's to say that registration is not then used for nefarious reasons? who's to say how that data is stored and whether secure from the public and/or government?"

Slippery slope argument.

5/16/2013 1:13:54 PM

Quote :

"Slippery slope argument."

Is a perfectly valid argument when discussing laws which restrict freedom, especially when it has repeatedly held true.

5/16/2013 1:38:05 PM

Quote :

"Is a perfectly valid argument when discussing laws which restrict freedom, especially when it has repeatedly held true."

Really? When they instituted a waiting period did that suddenly slide down the slippery slope to be years long? When they prevented felons from legally purchasing hand guns did that slippery slope down to anyone with a speeding ticket? When machine guns were banned did that slippery slope down to hand guns?

5/16/2013 2:03:26 PM

LOL it turns out Cole Withrow lied and knew the guns were in his vehicle after Fox News raced to defend him and Liberty University gave him a scholarship:

http://www.wral.com/teen-who-brough-guns-to-school-admits-he-lied-pleads-guilty/12453823/

Princeton, N.C. — A Johnston County teen who was arrested and suspended after bringing two unloaded shotguns to school said Thursday that he lied to the principal about forgetting the guns were in his vehicle.

Cole Withrow, 18, released a statement to the media shortly after pleading guilty to a misdemeanor weapons charge. He received a 45-day suspended sentence from Johnston County Judge Andy Corbett.

5/16/2013 9:25:17 PM

well he dodged a huge bullet, just think of how terrible it would be to go to Liberty

5/16/2013 10:03:41 PM

I'd rather go to jail than Liberty.

5/16/2013 10:14:41 PM

I agree Liberty is a joke and a prison of its own sort if you go there.

5/16/2013 11:18:02 PM

Went out to get some weed and saw the cops had blocked the road to the local high school and several ambulances were on stand by.

If it is a kid bringing a gun to school, I hope the kid is smart enough to say it was accident and get a free scholarship.

5/17/2013 1:36:11 PM

are you dudes ok with an organization having a database of the firearms that you own?

[Edited on August 20, 2013 at 11:27 PM. Reason : yeah]

8/20/2013 11:19:03 PM

1. hell no
2. if an organization has the list, then the government probably has it, too. big brother is watching.
3. what the hell kind of "organization" are you talking about?
4. what is your desired purpose for the existence of such a list?

8/20/2013 11:27:46 PM

http://www.buzzfeed.com/stevefriess/how-the-nra-built-a-massive-secret-database-of-gun-owners

8/20/2013 11:28:33 PM

That pisses me off, which the NRA has a way of doing from time to time.

I just skimmed the article, but I don't see where they're keeping a list of what firearms people own, nor is there any way that they could.

8/20/2013 11:43:26 PM

A lobbying organization keeps a mailing list of potential donors. Shocking.

Quote :

"but I don't see where they're keeping a list of what firearms people own, nor is there any way that they could."

All they would need to do is ask. Look at the millions of gun threads here alone. Apparently half the fun of owning a gun is bragging about it.

[Edited on August 21, 2013 at 6:10 AM. Reason : .]

8/21/2013 5:58:26 AM

a batshit crazy organization does the same thing they warn the government is going to do in order to stir up paranoia to raise money...shocking

8/21/2013 6:57:14 AM

the NRA's mailing list is not a "database of firearms that you own"

[Edited on August 21, 2013 at 8:47 AM. Reason : by no means am i a gung-ho NRA dude. i'm not fond of any group having that much power.]

8/21/2013 8:45:04 AM

uh, its not just a mailing list. read the link.

8/21/2013 9:30:56 AM

^exactly


[Edited on August 21, 2013 at 10:10 AM. Reason : f]

8/21/2013 10:09:52 AM

a list of gun owners is not the same as a list of serial numbers and their respective owners

i'm not defending the NRA's list, but i am pointing out goodlife's error

8/21/2013 10:36:50 AM

they are scraping gun registry information as part of their database, the exact information that you gun nuts are terrified of anyone having

8/21/2013 11:09:16 AM

yep, like most folks in politics, they're a bunch of damn hypocrites. that's why i let my membership lapse after 1 year. i only joined b/c it was a requirement for a range i wanted to join.

8/21/2013 12:00:48 PM

whether you own one 9mm or 30 AK's, knowing you have a gun is knowing you have a gun.

[Edited on August 21, 2013 at 8:15 PM. Reason : .]

8/21/2013 8:14:54 PM

Quote :

"uh, its not just a mailing list. read the link."

I read the link. It's a list of potential donors along with a bunch of info to help the NRA extract money from them. Every lobbying organization does the same thing.

8/21/2013 8:45:08 PM

No one is saying that this is not a common thing (hell, target or harris teeter has a shit load of information about me), they were just pointing out that the NRA is scraping that same registration data that they don't want people to have. And its not just data for members, its all of the data, whatever they can buy.

8/23/2013 1:12:57 PM

http://www.wral.com/woman-faces-charge-after-shooting-self-in-wake-forest-store/12808147/

8/23/2013 1:14:48 PM

Quote :

"Another shopper, Kelli Hamilton, said that as a gun owner, she is surprised an accident like that could happen. "

Lol, yeah who could have seen that coming

8/23/2013 1:23:49 PM

registration? what registration?

also, fuck the nra.

^^should be charged with something.

8/23/2013 1:38:13 PM

ahahaha. really, thegoodlife123?

"Hey, would you guys be mad if an organization had a database of all the guns owned by a bunch of people?"
*shows that the NRA has a mailing list of donors*

really?

8/25/2013 2:32:53 PM

I like how mass shootings are so common these days, that this thread doesn't even get a bump anymore....


like...."meh, another dozen or so dead at the hands of a asshole with a gun....who bought them legally, despite having a record of using his gun....and reports of him also hearing voices....no big deal...."

9/17/2013 2:08:09 PM

It's not a solvable problem as long as guns are enshrined in our culture. Give it 200 years and people will just stop having them because there's no need for them. Or we'll be in another Dark Ages. It really could go either way.

9/17/2013 2:13:56 PM

^^So you are finding problems again with the medical/psych system, and the current legal system, and not with guns.

Finally.

[Edited on September 17, 2013 at 2:15 PM. Reason : .]

9/17/2013 2:14:57 PM

9/17/2013 2:28:39 PM

He could have just as easily walked in with a knife and assaulted a security guard and then take his weapon. Once again, the gun isn't the problem, the people are the problem.

How about we try to address the growing mental health issue?

9/17/2013 3:23:14 PM

It's just as easy to mug someone, take their AR-15, a shotgun and a semiautomatic pistol, and murder 12 people as it is to purchase a gun and ammo in the US.

You heard it here folks.

Besides, if it's that easy to get jacked to take your guns, isn't that an argument against gun ownership? I thought good guys having guns stopping bad guys was the reason good guys need guns in the first place.

[Edited on September 17, 2013 at 3:33 PM. Reason : .]

9/17/2013 3:29:48 PM

Quote :

"He could have just as easily walked in with a knife and assaulted a security guard and then take his weapon"

No it's not. That's so disengenous. You're really trying to argue that it's just as easy to kill an armed security guard using a knife as it is to kill them with a gun? No.

Quote :

"I thought good guys having guns stopping bad guys was the reason good guys need guns in the first place."

That is interesting. Supposedly shot and took guns from two different security guards?

Quote :

"How about we try to address the growing mental health issue?"

I'm pretty sure we all agree on that.

9/17/2013 3:37:41 PM

^^ he didn't have an AR, he brought a shotgun and took the two pistols

It really wouldn't be all that difficult to come up from behind a security guard with a knife and stab him in the throat. If you are willing to go on a shooting rampage it isn't a huge stretch to say you would be willing to do that. You think your average armed security would be able to fight a surprise attack like that off easily?

And if not a knife how about a taser? That should easily incapacitate someone long enough to take their gun. Hell, brass knuckles to the back of the head would do it.

Gun control would not prevent something like this.

[Edited on September 17, 2013 at 3:56 PM. Reason : A]

9/17/2013 3:44:52 PM

you're being so disingenuous. no, it would not be as easy to kill an armed guard with a knife as it would be with a gun. just stop it.

edit: i'm not arguing for gun control, or arguing that more gun control could have prevented this. i'm just saying it's a stupid argument to claim that you could kill a gun-toting security guard just as easily with a knife or brass knuckles as with a gun. that's silly.

[Edited on September 17, 2013 at 4:08 PM. Reason : ]

9/17/2013 4:05:51 PM

it would be really easy to kill him with a regular wood stocked rifle or shotgun though

9/17/2013 4:08:30 PM

yes

9/17/2013 4:09:10 PM

OFFICIALS: GUNMAN TREATED FOR MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_NAVY_YARD_SHOOTING_GUNMAN_MENTAL_HEALTH?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2013-09-17-08-03-32

Quote :

"WASHINGTON (AP) -- U.S. law enforcement officials are telling The Associated Press that the Navy contractor identified as the gunman in the mass shootings at the Washington Navy Yard had been suffering a host of serious mental issues, including paranoia and a sleep disorder. He also had been hearing voices in his head, the officials said. Aaron Alexis, 34, had been treated since August by the Veterans Administration for his mental problems, the officials said. They spoke on condition of anonymity because the criminal investigation in the case was continuing. The Navy had not declared him mentally unfit, which would have rescinded a security clearance that Alexis had from his earlier time in the Navy Reserves. Family members told investigators that Alexis was being treated for his mental issues."

9/17/2013 4:13:16 PM

^^^^I was just quoting
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/17/us/shooting-reported-at-washington-navy-yard.html

And I took the time to edit out "assault rifile" in front of AR-15 for you. So

9/17/2013 4:15:55 PM

Quote :

"you're being so disingenuous. no, it would not be as easy to kill an armed guard with a knife as it would be with a gun. just stop it. edit: i'm not arguing for gun control, or arguing that more gun control could have prevented this. i'm just saying it's a stupid argument to claim that you could kill a gun-toting security guard just as easily with a knife or brass knuckles as with a gun. that's silly. [Edited on September 17, 2013 at 4:08 PM. Reason : ]"

I guess just as easily was a poor choice of words. It would be pretty damn easy to incapacitate an armed security guard in this situation and take his gun if you had something like a taser. He was an employee or had access to that area and appeared to be an employee, I highly doubt the security guard would be in high alert if he approached. Pull out a taser, boom he is down before he can even think of drawing his weapon.

Just because someone is an armed security guard doesn't mean they are highly trained in defending themselves. The shooter here had the element of surprise clearly at his advantage.

9/17/2013 4:23:41 PM

Quote :

"I like how mass shootings are so common these days, that this thread doesn't even get a bump anymore...."

This is me. I literally do not give a single fuck about this issue anymore. I accept that I've been totally desensitized. I saw the BREAKING NEWS article the morning of the shooting, during my normal morning news perusal. It surprised me, but I still didn't even click on it (and this was still at the point when the news was trying to sensationalize everything). I just didn't give a shit. I didn't care how many people died, I didn't care what weapons were used, or that they thought the perp was wearing scary fatigues. I don't care that the guy obviously has mental issues and I don't really care how he was able to obtain his guns. Yes, to some degree, those feelings do scare me.

Here is my take:
We are a gun country. Period. Guns aren't going anywhere anytime soon and we aren't going to see any meaningful change in the regulation of guns in the next 2 decades (just my guesstimation). I just see no reason to waste anytime on the issue at all. People are going to die, but it is just collateral damage so that the rest of our rights aren't "infringed." *Shrug*

How do I know nothing meaningful is going to happen? Because 20 elementary school kids were gunned down just a few months ago and all we got was the status quo. I really don't like comparing tragedies, but if Sandy Hook didn't push us toward action then why would you expect this one to do anything.

[Edited on September 17, 2013 at 6:58 PM. Reason : lock and trash this thread. Discussion is meaningless]

9/17/2013 6:56:50 PM

Quote :

"He could have just as easily walked in with a knife and assaulted a security guard and then take his weapon. Once again, the gun isn't the problem, the people are the problem. "

haha....I really hope this guy believes this.

Yes, he could just as easily incapacitated a security guard with a knife and then stole the guards gun to go on his rampage..

...or he could have done it with a taser...

...or with brass knuckles...

...or with nunchucks...

...or with a sling-shot...

...or with a feather duster...

...or maybe with bad breath...?

...or maybe with a coke and a smile?

...or maybe he could have gone in and given the security guard a mean look and an indian burn?






He didn't do any of that, though. He used a gun, which he bought. Legally.

9/17/2013 8:18:02 PM

So? Just because a gun was used doesnt mean it is a gun control issue as everything could have happened with one less gun out of the three in the equation (with the other two being from security guards).

The guy was fucking psycho and that is the issue.

9/17/2013 10:25:00 PM

You are taking a ridiculous position, that is neither sensible nor politically smart.


This killing reflects everything that the pro-gun side has been saying all along. If a mass shooting can ever possibly be politically expedient for the pro-gun argument, well, this is the case.

We need to do something to better keep guns out of the hands of crazy people. That is something that pretty much everyone can agree on, and is the rallying cry of the pro-gun side when the anti side tries to do silly bullshit while ignoring this fact. The anti side tends to agree with on paper, but in practice, they expend most of their efforts towards legislating against inanimate objects (and to a lesser extent, responsible gun owners)--that's what is politically expedient for them, in terms of making the party base happy, even if it isn't politically viable at all, let alone practically effective. If ever there was a case for how we need to better implement the system(s) already in place, it's when a dude retains a security clearance and legally purchases a gun recently after TWO violent incidents where he was massively irresponsible with a firearm, AND receives treatment for hearing voices in his head.

Also, this is YET ANOTHER case of a mass-casualty rampage going down in a "gun free" zone, as seems to be the case the overwhelmingly majority of the time.

We told you so. Again.

[Edited on September 17, 2013 at 11:05 PM. Reason : ]

9/17/2013 10:59:42 PM

Not sure if you were talking to me or David Thompson.




But....if we're having a real conversation....


Define "crazy person." Is there a test or metric that can be meted out equally and judiciously to ALL gun owners?

Are you advocating for some form of registration and licensure to buy and retain guns?

Is there some sort of penalty system that can be put in place to tally X amount of irresponsible acts before someone loses his or her right to bear arms?



The pro gun side always diverts the conversation to "mental health" and immediately shuns any solution that proposes a hint of registration.


So what's the fucking point of having this discussion if the foundation of any solution is immediately shot down?


Its easy to say that "we all agree that only responsible gun owners should have guns." Yet there is never a meaningful attempt to define these terms.




Oh well. Guess well just have to wait got the next mass shooting to rehash these arguments.



I'm sure we won't have to wait long, though.

9/18/2013 12:28:12 AM

2nd amendment says nothing about mental health. No constitutional reason this guy should have been denied the basic fundamental right to own guns.

Seems like gun grabbers Are trying to inch closer to taking our guns. Give an inch and they'll take a kilometer!

Show me where it says you can't own a gun just because you've said some nutty things. Liberals just want to trample both the first AND 2nd amendments!!

9/18/2013 12:51:49 AM