Quote :

"The pro gun side always diverts the conversation to "mental health" and immediately shuns any solution that proposes a hint of registration."

That's not true.

Lets register the crazies instead of relying on them to indicate "crazy" when they buy a gun and fill out that form.

Given this guys crazy past he would definitely be on the crazy list and therefore definitely wouldnt have been sold a gun.

9/18/2013 1:54:52 AM

Surely that approach would be full of loopholes and the White establishment would be able to wiggle their way out of it leaving the lower class at a disadvantage. Seriously, just look at the laws today: It is easier for the wealthy in this country to contact a lawyer and get something taken care of than it is for somebody that is poor and pay check to pay check.

The only thing that would work would be to have a zero tolerance law regarding mental health so that any documented issues would be registered and filed in a database.

9/18/2013 5:48:20 AM

That wouldn't work at all, because only a tiny fraction of the mentally ill are violent and doctors are already ethically required to report patients they believe to be a threat

9/18/2013 8:07:06 AM

Quote :

"zero tolerance law regarding mental health"

so your stance is no guns for anyone, then

9/18/2013 8:36:21 AM

That is the only solution that would "work". Hence there is no solution. It's not a fixable problem at this point in our civilization.

9/18/2013 8:43:13 AM

The mental health argument is fairly terrifying. People who generally consider themselves freedom lovers are arguing for the government to keep a database of people's mental issues (not that they don't already have them, ha ha)

Considering how little we actually know about the brain, and how terrible our categorization system is, it's absurd.

9/18/2013 8:50:49 AM

It is stunningly hypocritical

They also either don't realize or purposefully ignore how broad the term "mental illness" is. If you are assuming that means anything in the DSM or ICD, almost anything is a mental illness.

If you collect books (bibliomania) apparently you should be on a national database. Can't sleep because you drink too much coffee (caffeine-induced sleep disorder) then no guns for you! Do you bite your nails? That's an OCD symptom in the latest edition of the DSM, so the government should track you. etc...

This is of course ridiculous, but no one has tried to explain which mental illnesses should require registration and certainly no one has considered how that would effect which diagnosis a doctor gives a patient.

9/18/2013 9:39:17 AM

can't we agree this guy was "crazy"? he had alrady had several episodes of using firearms in very irresponsible ways. He had sought help multiple times for mental issues and for hearing voices.

9/18/2013 9:45:42 AM

I don't think anyone is disagreeing that the guy was crazy

9/18/2013 9:47:31 AM

as a strong pro-gun person here... I'd like to mostly agree, echo, and comment upon adultswim's and dtownral's posts (3^, 4^).

For one, unlike the many hypocritical idiots out there (mostly Rs), I don't agree with a database of mental illness issues, other than what is pretty much done now (either adjudicated or institutionalized). I think it's very scary to try to use any general sense of mental illness and have a database of people, considering how so many things are considered an illness, are mistaken, temporary, or plain non-threatening. Besides that, it's a huge privacy violation.

I do think; however, think we must do a better job at identifying, helping, and making safe, those who present with potentially threatening symptoms. In the recent shootings, there was previous knowledge of mental health issues, in several cases there was violence or hints of violence prior to the shooting, and in some, firearms were involved before the mass shootings. At some point it comes down to the people in one's life to take action. It comes down the the police/military/government to take action when one of their own is having such issues.

9/18/2013 10:02:27 AM

AS SOON AS I HEARD THIS DUDE CAME IN WITH A SHOTGUN, NOT AN AR-15, I IMMEDIATELY THOUGHT OF THIS

9/18/2013 10:07:22 AM

yeah, one of the problems is that courts often don't report who have been deemed a threat to themselves or others or have been involuntarily committed by court order. a lot of the new gun control legislation has language requiring courts to do that in a timely fashion to reaffirm their requirement to do so. but even that isn't likely to be effective at anything as most of the mentally ill gunman have never been involuntarily committed or determined by the court to be a threat.

we should also be opposed to calls for stronger laws for doctors to report patients they consider a danger, there are already laws and ethical guidelines in regards to that.

9/18/2013 10:12:27 AM

I think what should be terrifying to everyone are the laughably predictable posts that my "crazy person registration" post brought forth.

dtownral and adultswim are especially on point; I've enjoyed reading their ideas and simply pretending they were pro gun instead.

Works just as well-

9/18/2013 12:05:13 PM

http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/17/opinion/granderson-gun-control-fail/index.html?iref=allsearch

some valid points.

Blaming the NRA and it's members doesn't stop violence, which is the real issue.

9/18/2013 12:16:34 PM

I've actually gained a lot of respect for dtownral....he definitely has opinions that are on both sides of the isle, and backs them up with facts.

9/18/2013 12:21:05 PM

It seems so straightforward. Any time a person is admitted to an institution or is reported for having halucinations, it is filed. And when they buy a gun and their name shows up, they don't get a gun.

Euorpeans keep records of such things, many of which are way more personal than going to a mental home simply because it may serve good for the nation. I don't see what the problem is. If you get sent to an institution or have the cops called becuase you were shouting at ghosts, then you get no gun regardless of who you are or how much money you have.

But in all honesty I think that there is no real solution at this point. And in the end the pro gun people will win out and there will be even more guns out on the streets. The days of gun free zones are numbered.

[Edited on September 18, 2013 at 1:29 PM. Reason : j]

9/18/2013 1:27:55 PM

that's already the law though, and even if the courts do a better job reporting involuntary commitments or when people are deemed dangerous it still wouldn't have stopped these recent mass shootings because those people had never been involuntarily committed or deemed a danger to themselves or others.

if you try to fix that by reporting any mental illness its not so straightforward because at what point do you draw the lines that the risk is real enough to erode doctor patient confidentiality? If you want to move that line from where it stands now with doctors, where do you move it to? All mental illness? If you list out certain diagnoses, doctors would just be more apprehensive to use those diagnoses unless they met their previous metric for being a danger to themselves or others. So little would change. And again, it wouldn't stop all of these situations where people have not been deemed dangerous.

9/18/2013 1:38:15 PM

This is all going to be moot when the ACA Hub is brought online. I recently read the OIG review of CMS'S implementation of the Health Insurance Exchange - Data Services Hub document and there is pretty much no security in place to prevent the hub from accessing HIPAA. Whether we want it or not, mental health diagnoses will be available to the government, and it would be up to them to create a repository of that information.

Here's a link to the article if anyone is curious:

https://oig.hhs.gov/oas/reports/region1/181330070.asp

[Edited on September 18, 2013 at 1:48 PM. Reason : link]

9/18/2013 1:45:47 PM

Don't worry, it will be so full of technical glitches that it will keep getting delayed. And that's only for poor people who don't get insurance from work anyways.

9/18/2013 1:46:57 PM

Still waiting on a response from duke's.

I suppose I shouldn't expect someone who's username was derived from John Wayne to be anything other than 100% in support of lax gun laws, though. Tis a pitty, because he's probably one of the more sensible gun advocates on this board.


But are we seriously going to sit here and come up with a million solutions that involve government invasion of privacy of people's "mental health" just to avoid gun registration? How in the flying fuckballs is that a more viable or practical solution? It's not. It's just a clever ruse to continue kicking the can down the road without actually changing a thing.

9/18/2013 4:21:15 PM

That is this governments motto-

9/18/2013 4:22:36 PM

How do gun registries prevent crimes?

9/18/2013 4:24:03 PM

They dont/wont.

They just make liberals feel like theyre punishing rednecks.

It really is that simple as far as these Soap Box type attitudes go.

9/18/2013 4:37:06 PM

They would aid investigation

[Edited on September 18, 2013 at 6:51 PM. Reason : and reduce illegal guns]

9/18/2013 6:51:27 PM

wouldn't really do either of those......

Maybe investigations, but only as a registration on a national level.......

9/18/2013 7:04:50 PM

Gun registrations won't prevent violent crimes any more than vehicle registration prevents car accidents.

9/18/2013 7:52:37 PM

No, but driver's licenses prevent the amount of accidents. Who could argue otherwise? And you know what? If you do something stupid like drive while drunk or drive recklessly, you lose your license.

Fuckin' interesting, isn't it?

9/18/2013 8:30:43 PM

I don't get why we can't just ban all guns like other countries.

9/18/2013 8:33:29 PM

because me and millions of my friends spend billions of dollars every year on guns and related goods and services and NRA memberships. we are a force to be reckoned with at the polls and politicians don't wanna piss us off.

9/18/2013 9:06:30 PM

Banning all guns will accomplish what? I can think of 100's of ways to kill tons of people without a gun.

9/18/2013 9:10:08 PM

name 7

9/18/2013 9:11:00 PM

^^I highly doubt that you have millions of friends..or that a million of you spend $1,000 each on guns and gun memberships.


And black me just said he can think of hundreds of ways to kill people without a gun.



I'm beginning to think that you guys suck with numbers.

9/18/2013 9:25:47 PM

Quote :

"Gun registrations won't prevent violent crimes any more than vehicle registration prevents car accidents."

I have to think that having the legal requirement to register a vehicle does prevent some crimes involving vehicles, and aids in investigations of some crimes that involve a vehicle.

As with anything, it's not black or white. Vehicle registration doesn't prevent or solve ALL crimes involving vehicles, but it does help prevent or solve SOME crimes involving vehicles.

[Edited on September 18, 2013 at 9:29 PM. Reason : but if you're thinkin' about my baby it don't matter if you're black or white]

9/18/2013 9:26:35 PM

knife
vehicular homicide
poison
explosive device
blunt object
rope/strangulation
bow/crossbow

You didn't say they had to be of the same efficiency as a gun.

9/18/2013 9:29:35 PM

Neat.


Now name 93 more.

9/18/2013 9:31:57 PM

This mufucka seriously came in here talmabout killin' hundreds of people with bows and arows and shit.....



Honestly, sub yourself out and go back and sit at the end of the bench. I'd respect you more if you put "diabetes" on your list.



Jesus Christ.

9/18/2013 9:36:31 PM

Its a lot harder to buy and drive a stolen car because of vehicle registration, the same would be true with gun registration. It absolutely would reduce illegal guns.

9/18/2013 10:22:23 PM

a stolen car is driven on the street in full view of the public

a stolen gun can be hidden at all times

bad analogy

[Edited on September 18, 2013 at 10:37 PM. Reason : ]

9/18/2013 10:36:37 PM

Quote :

"No, but driver's licenses prevent the amount of accidents. "

LOL no it doesn't. Tons of people with revoked license or no license drive.

Quote :

"Who could argue otherwise? And you know what? If you do something stupid like drive while drunk or drive recklessly, you lose your license. "

Its simple. Its called not giving a fuck about policies/rules/laws and doing it anyways. How many people with DWI's and revoked/prohibited license continue to drive? Laws and policies are not absolute in effectiveness. How could you argue against that?

I know for a damn fact this kid didn't have a driver's license and yet, somehow, he managed to get a joyride in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcqOgnQyXp4

Quote :

"Its a lot harder to buy and drive a stolen car because of vehicle registration, the same would be true with gun registration. It absolutely would reduce illegal guns."

Not as hard as you might think. There are quite a few cars on craigslist that have no titles and are really cheap. Get it up and runnin, steal some tags from another car, and hope you don't get pulled. I'm not saying it's bulletproof. You might be unforunate to have a cop behind you one day who runs your plate. But otherwise, no one will really know. You can swap vins this way too and register a junk car. Highly illegal, but still possible nonetheless (especially on older cars from the 80's).

Quote :

"I have to think that having the legal requirement to register a vehicle does prevent some crimes involving vehicles, and aids in investigations of some crimes that involve a vehicle. As with anything, it's not black or white. Vehicle registration doesn't prevent or solve ALL crimes involving vehicles, but it does help prevent or solve SOME crimes involving vehicles. "

I can agree to this.

[Edited on September 18, 2013 at 11:04 PM. Reason : .]

[Edited on September 18, 2013 at 11:12 PM. Reason : .]

9/18/2013 10:56:09 PM

a car is also more useful and valuable in general

9/18/2013 11:08:18 PM

Apples to Oranges comparison.

Value is vague. The depreciation on firearms is no where near that of a vehicle. Vehicles depreciate quite a lot. I'd say their value is over-inflated and unstable.

9/18/2013 11:12:00 PM

Quote :

"Its simple. Its called not giving a fuck about policies/rules/laws and doing it anyways. How many people with DWI's and revoked/prohibited license continue to drive? Laws and policies are not absolute in effectiveness. How could you argue against that? "

I don't think anyone is, nor would anyone ever, that laws and policies are absolute.

But it's very obvious that the existence of laws and polices when it comes to vehicles is better than not having those laws and policies. It seems like you're arguing against motor vehicle licensure, but I'm hoping this is not the case...

If it IS the case though, you are firmly off the reservation, well into gun-nut territory.

9/18/2013 11:18:19 PM

Quote :

"The pro gun side always diverts the conversation to "mental health" and immediately shuns any solution that proposes a hint of registration."

That's because the mental health aspect is the actual problem, not a registration of who does or doesn't have guns. Look at basically all of the mass shootings we've had in the US. ALL of the shooters had clear and visible signs of mental illness, many of them visible to law enforcement and other authorities. They were, to use the clinical diagnosis, "fucking crazy". Yet, all of them roamed the streets. That they then got a gun is beside the point. If you've got a dangerously unstable person roaming the streets completely unsupervised, you've already lost! Maintaining a database of people with mental health issues is pointless, because it doesn't get those people help and it doesn't stop them from getting a gun, not to mention how invasive it is and how inept the gov't would be at safeguarding that information (SC can't even keep my fucking income tax records safe). Let's put it simply: if you are too mentally disturbed to be trusted with a gun, you are too mentally disturbed to be roaming around in society, period. Fuck the database, actually control the people who have problems, and then you don't need any of the other invasive and infringing actions that are being proposed as band-aids!

Quote :

"No, but driver's licenses prevent the amount of accidents. Who could argue otherwise? And you know what? If you do something stupid like drive while drunk or drive recklessly, you lose your license. Fuckin' interesting, isn't it?"

You also don't have a constitutionally protected right to drive a car. Fuckin' interesting, isn't it?

9/18/2013 11:31:39 PM

But you do have a constitutionally protected right to own a gun, no matter how nuts you are.

Fuckin' interesting, isn't it?

9/18/2013 11:39:47 PM

Yes, you do. I fail to see the problem. If you are fucking nuts, you should be in an institution, at which point the fact that you owned a gun beforehand no longer matters. I presume that a person in a mental institution would, for obvious reasons, not be allowed to maintain possession of his weapons. Like I said, I fail to see the problem.

9/18/2013 11:52:34 PM

Quote :

"Look at basically all of the mass shootings we've had in the US. ALL of the shooters had clear and visible signs of mental illness"

You. Don't. Fucking. Say....


....you mean to tell me that it takes a person with a mental fucking illness to go out and murder a baker's dozen people without any reservations? Wooooooooooowwwwwwwwwwwwww..... pat yourself on the back, big guy. You cracked the fucking code. 10 points.


So what is it about the United States that pumps out all these "crazies?" Must be something in the water, eh, chap? Maybe all that fracking or something. You finna make that argument? That there are somehow more "crazies" in the US than every other country in the world? Because mass shootings don't happen anywhere else in the world with nearly the same frequency as they do here at home.


You know how many mass shootings there have been in this country alone (4 or more people shot during one spree? Over 200. THIS YEAR.

Quote :

"That they then got a gun is beside the point."

Naw, man. That's precisely the point. The ease of access to guns clearly increases the odds of a crazy person using that same gun.





Let's take two hypothetical crazy people. Give one of them a gun. Give the other one some ninja stars. Take a wild fucking guess which one is going to rack up the higher body count. Fuck me, how is this not obvious?

Quote :

"You also don't have a constitutionally protected right to drive a car. Fuckin' interesting, isn't it?"

Gee, I wonder why our founding fathers didn't constitutionally protect something that wasn't invented for another one hundred fucking years......hmmmmmmm...... I could see it now. Thomas Jefferson, constitutionally protecting cars, toaster ovens, polaroid cameras, VHS cassettes, space ships, ipads, drones, and flat screen TVs.

9/19/2013 12:50:29 AM

Quote :

"It seems like you're arguing against motor vehicle licensure, but I'm hoping this is not the case..."

Oh absolutely not. I'm totally for it. In fact, I wish there was more in depth schooling on driving skills. Especially with proposals to increase speed limits on freeways and such, I believe its our duty not to rely on the increased safety technologies incorporated in vehicles today versus a previous decade. We need to train our drivers better so they have skills that better prepare them for emergencies. Knowing how to do a three point turn and read signs isn't enough. We need a school that adopts true skills tests. I believe in a system of education and proper training with everything; vehicles, firearms, anything and everything. I have no problem with a license/registration system as long as there is an effective purpose for it. Registration for the point of filling an excel sheet with data is not effective. It's a reactive security measure rather than preventative. Sure you'll be able to track down a suspect based on the weapon information after a crime has been committed, however, with proper education/training we can reduce those occurances to begin with. Isn't that what it's about, after all? Reducing the occurances of misuse?

Quote :

"Take a wild fucking guess which one is going to rack up the higher body count"

It could be the guy with the ninja stars if the guy with the gun doesn't have ammo. I'm just kidding here... I see your point. I'm just pullin your leg.

[Edited on September 19, 2013 at 2:19 AM. Reason : .]

[Edited on September 19, 2013 at 2:21 AM. Reason : .]

9/19/2013 2:16:18 AM

We are talking about innocent people dying. It would be great to have a logistical and practical conversation about it without any political driving force.

9/19/2013 5:39:08 AM

I like the mental health argument actually. We really do need to do better in this area. It's very complicated on where the line is drawn for minor/severe illness, and it's not gonna stop all shootings, but it needs to be a part of the discussion.

But take a look at the gun crowd and the folks that don't want the government to spend money on ANYTHING. There is a huge amount of overlap there, I'm left thinking its just a smokescreen until there are some concrete proposals.

ACA - mental parity act. Will help folks get treatment even if they are above the poverty line
ACA - NRA successfully lobbies to make it illegal for a health professional to ask a patient about guns in the home
Medicaid - by far the largest payer of mental health services

It's the same people telling us we need better mental health care that are actively trying to dismantle what we already have in place.

[Edited on September 19, 2013 at 7:05 AM. Reason : .]

9/19/2013 7:03:34 AM

Quote :

"Yes, you do. I fail to see the problem. If you are fucking nuts, you should be in an institution, at which point the fact that you owned a gun beforehand no longer matters. I presume that a person in a mental institution would, for obvious reasons, not be allowed to maintain possession of his weapons. Like I said, I fail to see the problem."

You mean in the institutions that don't exist anymore?

http://www.nytimes.com/1984/10/30/science/how-release-of-mental-patients-began.html

Everyone agrees that mental health is ignored too often, but what is the solution? "Control the mentally ill". How do you control them and who will pay for it?

9/19/2013 8:20:41 AM