Honestly, it's unclear at this point whether there is sufficient proof to establish that a rape did or did not occur.

It certainly does not appear that there is probable cause to charge the alleged perpetrators. If there was, someone would have been arrested by now.

However, if they were to sue the alleged victim, the burden of proof would be on them. For the DA to charge the alleged victim, if it is a hoax, would even require a higher burden of proof (beyond a reasonable doubt rather than preponderance of the evidence).

This situation may well fall into the gray area where there is no way to really prove what actually happened that night.

4/12/2006 5:49:34 AM

my question is, now that DNA hasn't matched any of the guys on the lacross team, how will they know WHO to charge/prosecute, if they intend to go ahead and do so?

4/12/2006 6:40:00 AM

I would guess what they used before DNA: victim identification, etc.

4/12/2006 7:44:46 AM

^Yeah, I'm banking on the victim being able to identify three attackers now... even though she obviously couldn't before because they felt the need to do DNA tests of the entire team. You would think that if she could identify the attackers to begin with then they would have just taken a DNA sample of just those three people as opposed to the entire LAX team.

How easily she will be able to identify the attackers will be telling.

I heard a snippet of the DA's address on the DNA findings this morning. The segment of his speech that I heard was basically trying to discredit the lack of DNA evidence because "back in the day we didn't have DNA, we brought witnesses to court". I hope there was more that he said to actually justify furthering the case without DNA evidence but that attempt to discredit DNA evidence took me off guard. Who is he kidding?

[Edited on April 12, 2006 at 8:26 AM. Reason : -]

4/12/2006 8:19:24 AM

^ I have similiar concerns..

Back in the day we used witness testimony.. well guess what, now we HAVE DNA.. and DNA has been the reason for releasing numerous, numerous people from jail for a rape they did not committ... they went to jail based on a witness' testimony.

Also, this woman was dancing (stripping) at the party... saw people all night long and in the bathroom there were 3 and couldn't accurately pick them out from photos or even describe them?

C'mon.. it stinks of bullshit.

4/12/2006 8:58:12 AM

Quote :

"wouldnt be breaking news if the news isnt broken"

Phrase of the day.

4/12/2006 8:59:21 AM

^^^ I thought that I heard on the news a few days back (before the DNA came back negative) that she did pick the three players out of a photo line up.


[Edited on April 12, 2006 at 9:00 AM. Reason : a]

4/12/2006 8:59:28 AM

Oh, then why did they feel the need to get DNA from the entire LAX team? If she picked them out before the tests were administered it would have been a waste of time and money to test the entire team. If she picked them out after they took samples from the team but before the results came in it has a bit more credibility but starts to sound like someone is making sure all her bases are covered. If she could only identify after the negative test results that pretty much tells me they are liars.

[Edited on April 12, 2006 at 9:03 AM. Reason : -]

4/12/2006 9:00:52 AM

not before the tests were administered, before the test results were returned. it took about a week to get results back.

4/12/2006 9:14:52 AM

Yeah, so devil's advocate - someone basically sat down and thought... If the test results don't implicate anyone we better hurry up and single out 3 people now.

[tinfoil hat off]

4/12/2006 9:24:51 AM

Quote :

"t's close to 2,000 per kit. they're doing it twice, so... 46 x 2,000 = 92,000 x 2 = 184,000 who is paying for this? "

You, me, and everyone else who pays taxes.

4/12/2006 9:25:04 AM

we use DNA now because eye witness accounts are about the most unreliable evidence there is.

4/12/2006 9:44:09 AM

I feel sorry for the three guys she falsely accuses of rape.

4/12/2006 1:13:05 PM

I think i read somewhere that she can name the boys.

4/12/2006 1:21:32 PM

Good to know that she knew how to look up the roster on Duke's athletic site (with nice headshots of each player for easier identification in a lineup).

4/12/2006 1:37:58 PM

Quote :

"I think i read somewhere that she can name the boys"

I've been following this story pretty heavily and have never heard that anywhere. Also, if she could, she would have and there WOULD be some arrests by now.

4/12/2006 2:31:07 PM

Quote :

"I think i read somewhere that she can name the boys"

then why in god's name did they make the entire team (minus the black guy, since she said her supposed attackers were white) take genetic tests?

4/12/2006 2:36:10 PM

In the speech the prosecuter gave debunking the lack of DNA evidence and defending his own handling of the case infront of a NCCU audiance someone asked a question in which they claimed that the girl had positively identified the three attackers. The first thing the DA said in response to the question was that the reporter had false information and that the girl had *not* identified her attackers.

4/12/2006 2:37:02 PM

^^^you must not be following it close enough...in this search warrant there are names of the accused


http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0329061duke1.html

[Edited on April 12, 2006 at 2:40 PM. Reason : ..]

4/12/2006 2:39:45 PM

^ Interesting.. the source I read must have gotten their information wrong then.. I thought it was CNNSI, but it could have been from another source.. I read alot of news during the typical day.

4/12/2006 3:08:04 PM

[sarcasm]
Now getting DNA samples from the entire LAX team makes total sense.
[/sarcasm]

4/12/2006 3:14:44 PM

Quote :

"Report: Attacker Didn't Mention Duke, Athletes at HospitalPrayer vigil scheduled at Duke Eyewitness News and The Associated Press (04/12/06 - DURHAM) - An anonymous staff member is giving a detailed account of what happened the night a stripper said she was raped. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Also on abc11tv.com: Send us news tips | Desktop Alert | ABC11 AccuWeather | Pinpoint Traffic -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "She was hysterical. She was crying. She was pretty banged up. She said she was sexually assaulted, but she didn't say by whom," the staff member told ESPN The Magazine's Eric Adelson. The staff member went on to say the sexual assault nurse found injuries in the woman's pelvic area. "She never said one thing about Duke, any athlete or anything," the source said. "She just kept hollering and screaming. She never said who did it." Standing before a mostly black audience, the district attorney in charge of the Duke University rape investigation said Tuesday he does not need DNA to bring charges and vowed, "This case is not going away." District Attorney Mike Nifong spoke one day after defense attorneys said DNA testing failed to connect any of Duke's lacrosse players to the alleged attack on a black stripper who said she was raped at a party by members of the nearly all-white 47-man team. Nifong stopped short of confirming the defense assessment of the DNA results, but said the case would not be hampered by a lack of DNA evidence. "It doesn't mean nothing happened," Nifong said at a public forum at North Carolina Central University, where the 27-year-old alleged victim is a student. "It just means nothing was left behind." No charges have been filed. Nifong said prosecutors were awaiting a second set of DNA results, but did not say how those differed from the tests reported Monday. Nifong added that in 75 percent to 80 percent of sexual assaults, there is no DNA evidence to analyze. The district attorney said a rape case can built on testimony from the alleged victim and other witnesses. Nifong also said the hospital exam of the woman has led him to believe a crime occurred at the March 13 party. According to court documents, a doctor and a specially trained nurse found the alleged victim had "signs, symptoms and injuries consistent with being raped and sexually assaulted." "My presence here means this case is not going away," Nifong said to applause from an audience of about 700. The allegations have led to days of protests on and off the Duke campus and heightened racial tensions around Durham. Some students at North Carolina Central, a historically black university a few miles away, assailed Nifong for his handling of the case and the media for its portrayal of the alleged victim. "You all know if this happened at Central and the young lady was from another school or another `persuasion,' the outcome would have been different," said Toloupe Omokaiye, suggesting to applause from the crowd that the alleged attackers would have been jailed already. Nifong said that he has never engaged in racial favoritism and that arresting suspects too quickly could harm the case. "I have been criticized by both sides in this case," he said. "There have been people who have said that I should have given up this case a long time ago, and there are people who have said I should have already indicted, moved against somebody with some charges. The fact is that this case is proceeding the way a case should proceed." Nifong later told a questioner, who asserted the victim had positively identified her three attackers, that her information was wrong. The district attorney faces two challengers in a May 2 primary election. Asked by a member of the audience about the campaign, he said: "As the district attorney, you do not get to choose what crimes occur and when they occur. This is not about an election. This is about justice." Nifong refused to take any questions from reporters after the forum. Bill Thomas, a defense attorney for one of the team captains, urged the accuser to recant, saying he believes she made up the allegations to avoid a charge of public drunkenness. "It is my sincere hope that she comes forward and tells the truth in this matter and allows these young men to go on with their lives and for this community to heal," Thomas said. "

4/12/2006 3:21:53 PM

someone might have already said this (i'm not going to read all six pages) but wouldn't she also have dna evidence under her fingernails? i mean, if she was forcibly raped, then she probably tried to defend herself by clawing, smacking, etc. her attacker(s)...logically, i don't think there's any way that she had no dna evidence on her and was actually raped...then again, dna under the fingernails isn't nearly as damning (evidence-wise) as dna in the vagina...with intercourse, maybe the attacker(s) wore condoms or even pulled out before orgasm...

Quote :

"Nifong added that in 75 percent to 80 percent of sexual assaults, there is no DNA evidence to analyze."

where the hell did this statistic come from???

Quote :

""It doesn't mean nothing happened," "

his grammar amazes me!

4/12/2006 4:02:24 PM

She wasn't able to identify her alleged attackers.
They asked the other lacrosse players to speak up.

She wasn't able to identify her alleged attackers.
They took DNA samples from 46 Duke students.

She wasn't able to identify her alleged attackers.
None of the 46 DNA samples matched the rape kit.

She wasn't able to identify her alleged attackers.
Nifong needs a conviction before the election.

She wasn't able to identify her alleged attackers.
Now they say she can.

4/12/2006 4:42:04 PM

Quote :

"Nifong later told a questioner, who asserted the victim had positively identified her three attackers, that her information was wrong. "

interesting

4/12/2006 4:54:32 PM

Quote :

"Nifong added that in 75 percent to 80 percent of sexual assaults, there is no DNA evidence to analyze. "

Actually, that may be accurate ... note how it mentions sexual assaults ... NOT rape cases. Somebody else would have to look up his source to verify. Good politician/speech writer! Sexual assault has a wipe variety of definitions depending on where its being defined. I can almost guarantee no two workplaces have the same definition of it.

panthers, you have a link to that article?

[Edited on April 12, 2006 at 5:50 PM. Reason : .]

4/12/2006 5:44:14 PM

They are saying sexual assult because they see now they can't prove rape so they are going for anything they can.

4/12/2006 10:03:44 PM

On NPR they said that while in the past prosecuting rape with out DNA evidence was acceptable, that in this DNA era (especially after certain trials & CSI type shows) that jurors expected some DNA evidence. So its harder than it used to be to prosecute without evidence. Also instead of coming down to a she said he said thing, it is instead a she said they said where the “they” has a bigger quantity and comes from a stronger credibility background.

4/12/2006 10:12:56 PM

the cell phone thing and the lack of DNA just fucking clinch it as far as I'm concerned

[Edited on April 12, 2006 at 10:19 PM. Reason : .]

4/12/2006 10:19:04 PM

cell phone thing/911 calls
bruises and cut before "rape" happened
NO DNA matches (atleast so far)
Inability to describe or pick out the 3 assailents
her criminal past

did i miss any?

too many factors make me not believe her.

4/12/2006 10:24:28 PM

Quote :

"did i miss any?"

You forgot the most important aspect of this case...

http://www.co.durham.nc.us/departments/cannonball.cfm?ID=2&deptPage=Offices_to_be_Elected.cfm

Quote :

"Offices to be Elected District Attorney 4 years 2006"

4/12/2006 10:36:18 PM

unless the jury is all black..innocent.

4/12/2006 11:32:05 PM

dirty durham at its best

4/13/2006 9:30:23 AM

change of venue

4/13/2006 10:56:25 AM

now there is new evidence, a police officer found her passed out drunk after she left the house.

the bitch is lying, her credibility keeps going way down

Quote :

"cell phone thing/911 calls bruises and cut before "rape" happened NO DNA matches (atleast so far) Inability to describe or pick out the 3 assailents her criminal past did i miss any? too many factors make me not believe her."

[Edited on April 13, 2006 at 5:56 PM. Reason : .]

4/13/2006 5:52:09 PM

Quote :

"Officer: Alleged Victim 'Passed-Out Drunk' Apr 13 6:01 PM US/Eastern Email this story By TIM WHITMIRE Associated Press Writer DURHAM, N.C. A woman who claims she was raped by members of Duke University's lacrosse team was described as "just passed-out drunk" by one of the first police officers to see her, according to a recording of radio traffic obtained Thursday by The Associated Press. The conversation between the officer and a police dispatcher took place about 1:30 a.m. March 14, about five minutes after a grocery store security guard called 911 to report a woman in the parking lot who would not get out of someone else's car. The officer gave the dispatcher the police code for an intoxicated person and said the woman was unconscious. When asked whether she needed medical help, the officer said: "She's breathing and appears to be fine. She's not in distress. She's just passed-out drunk." The black woman, a 27-year-old stripper and college student, told police she was raped and beaten by three white men around midnight at an off-campus party thrown by Duke's lacrosse team. The racially charged allegations have led Duke to cancel the highly ranked team's season and accept the resignation of its coach. No charges have been filed, but District Attorney Mike Nifong has said he believes a crime was committed. Attorneys for the players have said DNA tests failed to connect any players to the alleged attack, and they have urged Nifong to drop his investigation. The radio recordings, obtained by the AP through a records request, are the first instance in which police or anyone connected with the investigation has said the woman appeared to be intoxicated. Defense lawyers, however, have said time-stamped photographs taken by the players show that the accuser was drunk and already had suffered some injuries when she arrived at the house for the party. The recording is consistent with "what I have seen of the photo evidence before," attorney Kerry Sutton said. Those photos, she said, showed that she was "way beyond where you would put somebody behind the wheel of a car." The description of the woman's medical exam _ which Nifong has said is his basis for believing a rape occurred _ does not mention her being drunk. It states only that the woman's injuries and behavior were consistent with having been raped, sexually assaulted and having suffered a traumatic experience. The woman has told police she and another stripper hired to dance at the party arrived at 11:30 p.m. March 13. The pair reportedly left the house a short time later, fearing for their safety. The accuser told police the two were coaxed back into the house with an apology, at which point they were separated. That's when she said she was dragged into a bathroom and raped, beaten and choked for a half hour. At 12:53 a.m., police received a 911 call from a woman complaining that she had been called racial slurs by white men gathered outside the home where the party took place. The defense has said it believes the second dancer at the party made that call. The 911 call from the grocery store security guard was placed at 1:22 a.m. In it, the caller says, "Um, the problem is ... it's a lady in somebody else's car and she will not get out of their car. She's like, she's like intoxicated, drunk or something. She's, I mean, she won't get out of the car, period. " A police spokeswoman did not immediately return a call seeking comment on the radio traffic. The case has focused intense national scrutiny on Duke and the lacrosse players and has sparked protests on the elite private university's campus and elsewhere in Durham. The school last week canceled the highly ranked team's season and coach Mike Pressler resigned after the release of a vulgar and graphic e-mail sent by a team member shortly after the alleged assault. Several of the defense attorneys say they expect the district attorney to ask a grand jury on Monday to issue charges in connection with allegations. "Rest up on Sunday," Sutton said. There has been no official word, however, on whether Nifong intends to present the allegations Monday. His next opportunity would come two weeks later. ___ "

4/13/2006 6:44:34 PM

this just keeps getting dumber and dumber

4/13/2006 7:20:32 PM

I think if this turns out to be a hoax, we should have a candlelight vigil at NCCU to pray for the Lacrosse Team

4/13/2006 8:14:25 PM

^ Why?

4/13/2006 8:43:12 PM

you know, irony

4/13/2006 9:39:37 PM

by candle light vigil, you don't mean cross-burning, do you?

you racist.

4/13/2006 9:41:05 PM

he's white so of course he's a racist.

4/13/2006 9:49:31 PM

if white people got away with slavery for like 400 years, i'm pretty sure these duke players can wiggle their way out of trouble

4/13/2006 9:51:16 PM

if there's no DNA than I doubt she was banged out. i mean who rapes and uses condoms. rape isn't about the sex . . . it's the Power.

still awaiting the facts, G. but i think the new media is making more of a case about this whole elitism thing vs poor black community. yes it's a problem, but then again it's DUKE.

4/13/2006 10:01:34 PM

I'VE WEIGHED THE EVIDENCE CAREFULLY AND HAVE THE ANSWER.

dem boyz did it. all of um raped that poor innocent girl.

4/13/2006 10:07:22 PM

I dont see how they can convict w/o DNA. I mean, OJ was covered in blood and they acquitted him.

4/13/2006 10:23:46 PM

Sorry but DNA has freed many wrongly accused rapists. I don't see how NO DNA can link a person to the same crime. I just don't see how if bodily contact was made, that no DNA was found. I mean you hear all the time about murderers getting convicted on a damned eyelash. But come on... no DNA? Seems kind of weird to me. And I'd hold the same damn opinion no matter what the hell the race of the accuser was. I'm tired of everything being made into a race issue. We only have race issues because people make that way. Too many story conflicts and a weird background for the accuser, it would damn anyone, white/black/cuban/asian/etc.

4/13/2006 10:30:29 PM

The media were extremely obnoxious in their reporting of this case...they couldn't help but get in on all the angles:

black v. white
dancer v. prostitute
escort v. prostitute
privileged v. less privileged
students of Duke v. citizens of Durham
students of Duke v. students of Duke
private school v. public school
North v. South
etc...

4/13/2006 10:33:48 PM

the DA should save some face and drop the case now......the race card is getting stupid

4/13/2006 10:58:58 PM

10/10.

4/13/2006 11:03:12 PM