did you miss where i said they cornered us?

there was a bunch of them and they were surrounding us

yeah, everyone had to be coked up?
wtf man, all we were doing was drinking beer enjoying the beach andpeople that had beef confronted us


most everyone of my friends are successful good hard working people

and yeah, let me know next time you get $80

8/10/2006 6:38:06 PM

while im sorry that shit happened, do you really think it is the norm? i mean, its true, crime happens, but the sheer brutality and senselessness of that is pretty rare.

if every one of you had knives itd have been a pretty even fight except perhaps that they outnumbered you. at that point what is to prevent someone from outnumbering you with firearms. if they jumped you and were going to be that brutal in the first place id imagine they could have easily shot you first and/or killed every one of you (though you might have gotten a couple).

no one comes out a winner in a situation that vile and as terrible as it is, i dont consider it much of an arguing point beyond you personally.

8/10/2006 7:20:06 PM

Quote :

"i mean, its true, crime happens, but the sheer brutality and senselessness of that is pretty rare. .."

You nailed it. Horrible shit can and does happen. People aren't interested in conceal carry because they know they'll need it, they want it because they may need it someday. 99 out of every 100 conceal carry holders will go their entire life without ever using the weapon, I suspect. But that 1 out of 100 are glad they had it.

Quote :

"if they jumped you and were going to be that brutal in the first place id imagine they could have easily shot you first and/or killed every one of you (though you might have gotten a couple)."

Not really; in this situation, since they were not armed with firearms, the confrontation would have ended immediately just by proclaiming "I have a gun!" If they do escalate and all go get guns then try this again, then once again they'll confront you, you proclaim "I have a gun!" Again, the confrontation ends. Yes, they are guaranteed to win thanks to numbers, but you can take one or two with you, and they don't know which of them it will be, a 1 in 4 chance of dying is a great dissuader to conflict.

If in the 10% case where the bad guys go ahead with the violence anyway then yet again we have saved lives. If the bad guys have guns then it is a slaughter, they can chase you and shoot. If the good guys also have guns then everyone, including the bad guys, will dive for cover. If everyone is taking cover then no one is doing any killing (except for those killed in the first volley of shots). So, instead of five living bad guys and four dead good guys, we'll have two dead bad guys and two dead good guys, a net gain for society.

8/10/2006 11:13:25 PM

well yeah i was assuming for the argument that it was a diff case where they have guns, but your mathematical take on it is interesting.

perhaps im just frightened. frightened that the retards that inhabit our country and our earth are walking around with the ability to kill someone. i guess im equally afraid of crazed vigilantes and dumb, drunken rednecks as i am of some thug stealilng my wallet.

8/10/2006 11:24:07 PM

Quote :

"perhaps im just frightened. frightened that the retards that inhabit our country and our earth are walking around with the ability to kill someone. i guess im equally afraid of crazed vigilantes and dumb, drunken rednecks as i am of some thug stealilng my wallet."

Very reasonable fear, you are entitled to it. But you must accept that other people obsess over different fears.

And since your fear is obviously other people that are armed there is only one real solution for you: Get a gun and a conceal carry permit. If any crazy vigilantes or drunken rednecks come after you, or someone around you, just shoot them. Or, far more likely (statistically speaking), just proclaim "I have a gun!" and they'll quietly walk away, gun in hand, macho-insanity only caries people so far.

[Edited on August 10, 2006 at 11:45 PM. Reason : .,.]

8/10/2006 11:44:00 PM

Some people like to pretend that bad things will never happen to them. Therefore they see no need for the defensive uses of firearms. Using logic doesn't help. Arguing that it is your right doesn't help. Providing facts that firearm restrictions and bans do not promote safety doesn't help. Some are on the fence and may have some sense talked into them, the rest are willfully ignorant and cannot be reasoned with. I quit trying a long time ago.

If someone values their life so little that they see no need to protect, let them go right on ahead.

8/10/2006 11:58:40 PM

not really, much like my own reservations, people judge a risk reward ratio. with where i live, where i go to school, what activities i participate in, etc i feel the risk of somehow hurting myself with a firearm, having it hurt someone i love, or fall into the wrong hands outweighs any benefits i may derive from it (especially since i have no strong desire to hunt, collect, or own a gun).

the reason, as i explained above, is that im just as worried about ignorant fucks misusing theirs or others firearms as i am of criminals. unlike criminals, however, we can do something to limit that risk. i personally beleive that the risk reward ratio of the majority is similar to my own. thats my opinion on it and besides someone arguing about their god-given right to a firearm, their opinion is equally valid, but different in my eyes.


[Edited on August 11, 2006 at 12:11 AM. Reason : thats about as reasonable as you'll get from me. i at least try to explain my thoughts rationally]

8/11/2006 12:06:10 AM

Quote :

"with where i live, where i go to school, what activities i participate in, etc i feel the risk of somehow hurting myself with a firearm, having it hurt someone i love, or fall into the wrong hands outweighs any benefits i may derive from it"

By the wording of your statement it sounds like you realize not everyone lives in areas of equal safety to yours and that others have different risk/reward ratios.

Perhaps to explain an alternate way of thinking, I have rarely encountered actual armed retards or drunken rednecks. It may merely be a coincidence, I've been lucky, but I have not had my faith in others devastated by the experienced you must have suffered earlier in life. All I have faced in my sheltered life have been honest-to-god criminals, thus I do not fear rednecks, but criminals I do. Of course, by this reasoning, I have come to a completely different conclusion than you or pwrstrkdf250. I don't personally carry a concealed weapon, I probably never will. But I gain a sense of security by knowing that other honest people around me are.

Back in my hometown, while I was in highschool I used to regularly eat at a restaurant near downtown, that is until it was closed. One night a man with a shotgun drove his pickup through the front door and then proceeded to execute everyone inside. If any one of the 12 victims had been armed then this incident would have ended completely differently. Two or three dead innocents and one dead criminal.

Quote :

"i personally beleive that the risk reward ratio of the majority is similar to my own"

Maybe they do, I don't know, I just hope that they do not. Penn & Teller did a great show on the handgun debate. Penn had a great theory; since less than 2% of all violent offenders are female we can honestly conclude that guns don't kill people, men kill people. His conclusions was that a non-profit organization should donate a single pink gun and free weapons training to every female citizen at the age of 21. She can do whatever she wants with it; even if only half of them carry the weapons what retards would try anything, even drunk rednecks, given the knowledge that one out of every two women are packing and will quickly bring an end to the shit.

8/11/2006 1:17:45 AM

PWDRSTRIKE

that swordfight sounds crazy.

you dont need a gun, dude.

you need a spear and magic helmet.

8/11/2006 1:29:55 AM

Durham or fayettville anyplace that's filled with 3rd world minorities, own something to cut the population like a lawnmower. It's just common sense, they even they use it.

8/11/2006 2:39:28 AM

Firm. Butt Gentle.

8/11/2006 4:25:01 AM

^^^ stfu troll

when someone presents a valid reason you laught at it like it was a fucking joke

hopefully you will not have to experience what I did, but I have a feeling if you had been there it wouldn't be so funny and your opinion may differ

but go ahead laugh... hahaha yeah the bad people won and the court system let decent people down hahah oh thats funny

[Edited on August 11, 2006 at 7:45 AM. Reason : faggot]

8/11/2006 7:43:25 AM

A good family friend was killed when someones legal gun fired a bullet through her throat.

So theres an example that cancels yours out, see how easy that was.

8/11/2006 8:49:01 AM

there is a big difference between an accident and criminal activity


but keep on thinking what you want

I know I will

8/11/2006 8:52:14 AM

Uh it was a criminal activity

Oh and I almost forgot when one of my best friends growing up was murdered when someone shot him with a shotgun that had been purchased legally. That was just a couple years ago.

[Edited on August 11, 2006 at 9:19 AM. Reason : .]

8/11/2006 9:13:53 AM

that sucks...

is that all the details?


or is the only thing you are saying is that he got shot by a legally obtained firearm?

because if that was the case and it wasn't an accident then sadly, it seems as if he would have been murdered by that criminal no matter what... (ie: bat, knife, car, crowbar, lead pipe)

8/11/2006 9:24:07 AM

but realistically, you have a better chance of defending yourself against a "bat, knife, car, crowbar, lead pipe" then you do against a gun.

8/11/2006 9:25:45 AM

if someone wants you to die, there isn't a whole lot you can do about it

8/11/2006 9:28:36 AM

Neither of those were premeditated (as far as we know), they both involved an argument and a gun in the house.

So no, I don't think they would have happened if there were no guns.

8/11/2006 9:28:54 AM

Quote :

"if someone wants you to die, there isn't a whole lot you can do about it "

yes, there is.

8/11/2006 9:29:36 AM

yeah, those situations are horrible

but still... what the hell is wrong with someone when they grab a gun because they have an argument... god people piss me off sometimes


(not you, but people that do shit like that)

^ bullshit, if I wanted you to die, and was willing to do it, there isn't shit you can do about it

[Edited on August 11, 2006 at 9:31 AM. Reason : not a damn thing]

8/11/2006 9:30:51 AM

Its just as stupid as going home and "tooling up" then coming back to a bar and tring to be a thug

8/11/2006 9:32:08 AM

I don't do that

but I do carry a pistol because my job puts me in the woods miles away from anything in places where there are wild dogs, bears, hogs.. etc etc

and after what I witnessed at the beach, I decided I wasn't going to be a victim

8/11/2006 9:33:59 AM

Quote :

"bullshit, if I wanted you to die, and was willing to do it, there isn't shit you can do about it "

of course there is....do you really think im just going to sit back and let you kill me? i would do everything in my power to stop you. my point, is that if you had a gun, it would be much harder to stop you then if you didn't.

8/11/2006 9:36:56 AM

and I'd burn your house down while you slept


if someone wants you dead and is determined, there isn't much you can do

8/11/2006 9:37:45 AM

and my smoke detector would go off and id get out. try again.

8/11/2006 9:38:45 AM

haha yeah sure you would.. especially if it was set with the intention of killing you


the fact remains that if someone wnated you to die, they would find a way

8/11/2006 9:44:14 AM

i dont care what your intention is. its also my intention to live.

Quote :

"the fact remains that if someone wnated you to die, they would find a way"

no, your opinion remains.

there are many many many situations in which someone wanted someone else dead, and they failed.

[Edited on August 11, 2006 at 9:47 AM. Reason : d]

8/11/2006 9:46:20 AM

apparently they weren't very determined


anti-gun people wanna act like murders would cease with the ban of guns

bad people are bad people, no matter what method they use

the problem lies with the people, not the weapon

8/11/2006 9:49:16 AM

Quote :

"apparently they weren't very determined "

or they were stupid, or they made a mistake, or they didnt execute properly, etc...

there are many factors besides determination that decide an outcome.

i totally agree that the problem lies with the people, but my point, which you are missing, is that the weapon can allow the people an easier way to be bad. an 8 year old scrawny kid can now kill a grown man without as much as the blink of an eye. if he tried another means, such as a knife, his chances of success are much less.

im not for the banning of guns, or even strict regulation, but don't kid yourself and think that guns don't contribute something to the situation.

8/11/2006 9:57:42 AM

I understand, but I think fucked up people are most of the problem

8/11/2006 10:06:30 AM

Banning guns wouldn't even bring and end to accidental gun deaths.

Before conceal carry was legal there were people carrying guns around with them.

If handguns ever become illegal, otherwise law abiding people will still own them.

If people feel unsafe without a gun then they'll find one, legally if possible, illegally if necessary.

You will have cut down the number of guns and the incidence, but you will also have increased the number of otherwise law abiding people rotting in jail for gun posession.

8/11/2006 10:06:45 AM

Yeah its not possible at all that guns that are already owned legally would be grandfathered in.

Nope, its either legal guns of they come and arrest you.

And since banning the sell of handguns wouldn't immediately reduce the number of guns on the street we should just forget about reducing the number of guns on the street in the long run.

8/11/2006 10:10:12 AM

^ What's your point? I wasn't referring to the time duration, fast forward 100 years.

So you grandfathered in current gun ownership, then what was the point? Children are still shooting each other. Evidently you didn't really think this was a good reason to ban guns.

And new immigrants or split families unlucky enough not to have a family gun have gotten one illegally and are being put in jail for it.

I'm sure the kids are much safer now that mom-and-dad are serving three months in prison for gun posession.

8/11/2006 10:47:30 AM

Quote :

"Some people like to pretend that bad things will never happen to them"

8/11/2006 12:28:06 PM

^ You should sell insurance.

8/11/2006 12:32:44 PM

well i dont need to sell ignorance...everybody who thinks ^^ is loaded up on that already

8/11/2006 12:38:12 PM

LoneShark's reasoning process is going to make my head explode? Are you slow?

8/11/2006 12:44:13 PM

^ It is difficult to respond logically to someone that attempts to speak entirely in sarcasm. It sounded to me that it was your belief that people that already had guns should keep them, and that because of this otherwise honest people would rarely get arrested for illegally possessing guns, which I believe is rediculous. Just because I have my guns does not negate my belief that other's that do not already have them should have them.

It also sounded like you suspect our arguments had anything to do with not reducing gun violence immediately, which was false. Our argument is that making the sale of handguns illegal will not substantially reduce gun violence EVER.

While it is true that gun violence is less common in Britain, it bears pointing out that gun violence has always been uncommon in britain, even back when guns were legal.

[Edited on August 11, 2006 at 1:23 PM. Reason : .,.]

8/11/2006 1:21:49 PM

By banning new handguns you drastically slow the influx of handguns into the street. Over time the number of handguns on the street is reduced. No one is coming to take your gun if you are a legal handgun owner. Split families (where did that even come from) won't be able to buy guns, and if they purchase a gun illegally I don't see how its not their fault of they end up in jail.

8/11/2006 1:33:55 PM

banning new handguns?

no

8/11/2006 1:39:42 PM

time for the shut the fuck up button

8/11/2006 1:42:56 PM

you have fantasy solutions for real world problems

8/11/2006 1:53:35 PM

because much of the rest of the civilized world is apparently "fantasy land"

8/11/2006 2:00:14 PM

8/11/2006 2:03:02 PM

yeah my bad...i shouldnt feed smcrawff

8/11/2006 2:18:36 PM

Quote :

"and if they purchase a gun illegally I don't see how its not their fault of they end up in jail."

When you are contemplating passing laws through congress you must take into account all the costs and benefits. While it is obviously their own fault for breaking the law it doesn't change the fact that they would not be there if you had not made their behavior illegal.

The same goes for the increase in violent crime associated with the governments attempts to prevent sales. I refer you back to the 1920s rise of extremely violent mafia gangs to service the publics demand for illegal alcohol. While I doubt it will be quite so destructive, such beavior is inevitable. A cost/benefit analysis must be performed that takes into account all the costs and benefits of the law.

Benefits: saves a couple hundred lives a year of innocent people from accidentally killing themselves or someone else, saves another couple hundred lives a year because the poorest criminals can no longer afford a gun
Costs: violates the human right of self defense, causes a greater culture of illegality as otherwise legal citizens are forced to buy guns for self defense illegally, the current black market for guns grows to include not just criminals but average citizens with the resultant increase in gang and mafia street violence with the deaths and injuries of innocents that causes, the prison population grows to include otherwise honest citizens desperate to protect their families and those caught selling guns to them

All in all, you will probably save lives in agrigate, but there is no guarantee you will save the right lives, potentially causing the deaths of a greater number of honest people to save the lives of a greater number of criminals.

And using European nations as proof that you can get rid of the guns does not completely jive since they don't share the longest undefended border with Canada, where guns are perfectly legal, and another thousand mile border with Mexico, where nearly any gun can be had (Mexico is why L.A. has such a problem with gangs armed with fully-automatic weapons dispite the stiff penalties to sales in the U.S.).

8/11/2006 4:00:37 PM

i definately understand that extra gun regulation isnt the only step to solving some of these problems. unfortunately, like anyone else, i cant give you an exact formulation of laws that will help reduce violent crime and keep people safe. i do think that some type of increased regulation would be an integral part of the equation at some point.

[Edited on August 11, 2006 at 8:41 PM. Reason : and pwdr's whole "anything to kill you" scenario is a great example of when police COULD help]

8/11/2006 8:40:40 PM

it is funny how liberals are all for a loose interpretation of the 1st ammendment and for a strict interpretation of the 2nd... OMF-FLIP-FLOP

8/11/2006 11:53:40 PM

Not to be contradictory, but I'm not convinced the problem is sufficiently "bad" to need fixing. Man kind will always have certain problems: inequality, crime, decadence, and corruption. As it is, all of these are within my tolerance level, and "i personally beleive that the risk reward ratio of the majority is similar to my own," so don't expect most of us to allow you to even try to move heaven and Earth to fix anything unless at least most of us consider it broken beyond reason, a tall order since violent crime is down 50% from 10 years ago.

Of course, we've got time, so tweaking regulations should be alright, just be careful not to make things worse. Oh, and tis better to allow 10 witches go free than convict 1 innocent person. Remember who the criminals are and act accordingly. End Transmission.

8/12/2006 12:23:31 AM