I love how rally's article ends with this statement:

Quote :

"Ultimately the MVP award will go to either Nash or Dirk Nowitzki, who are deserving this season"

Who are DESERVING.

Quote :

"I think he could have won w/o Pippen."

So you think the Bulls could have won all those titles with Horace Grant or Bill Cartwright as their #2 option???

3/27/2007 10:17:44 AM

The bulls were in the conference finals with pippen leading the team.

Would the 07 lakers make the playoffs without Kobe? hell no

all of you seem to be oblivious to the fact that basketball is a team game and games are not won by one or two players. Comparing shag and pippen isnt the way to decide which player is better. The 3-8 players on the bulls were MUCH better than the 3-8 players on the lakers.

We can also agree that players are bigger, stronger,faster and more athletic today than 15 years ago. Athleticism is probably the most important aspect of defense, so we can assume Kobe faces better defenders. Kobe also has never had a great 3 pt shooter on his team, like Jordan, so he's faced more double teams on the wing.

I'm not ready to say Kobe is better, but I am certain I will feel that way when he retires. Everybody who keeps saying Jordan was more of a team player is obviously too young to have watched him his first ten years in the league. He was a gunner even compared to Kobe.

3/27/2007 10:41:04 AM

yeah nobody seemed to complain about basketball "turning into" a one-on-one game when Jordan was breaking people down 1-on-1 all the time

3/27/2007 10:44:59 AM

this thread has been using team success and finals mvps as the only way to judge between the two.

Though that is certainly a criterion, there are too many factors that contribute to a team winning a championship though. Kobe HAS won a few and he's still in his prime. Jordan had three titles at the same age.

Not that I think Kobe will win 3 more before he retires, but one or two could happen

[Edited on March 27, 2007 at 11:59 AM. Reason : .]

3/27/2007 11:58:24 AM

I'm tired of arguing with guys too young to even remember watching Jordan play. So use your youth as an excuse for your ignorant posts. That or you're just hating on Jordan b/c he went to UNC. Either way you guys are idiots.

3/27/2007 12:06:19 PM

I'm 27 years old...I saw Jordan play plenty of times...I saw him play live in both a Bulls and Wizard uniform

but ignore my points about the cyclical nature of Dr. J.... Jordan ..... Wade and just think that Jordan is the ultimate basketball player just because he happened to be the most dominant of your particular era

people older than you said the same shit about Dr. J and look what happened to him...he faded...he didnt disappear, but he faded...just like Jordan is doing in favor of players that are actually in the league

[Edited on March 27, 2007 at 12:09 PM. Reason : .]

3/27/2007 12:08:06 PM

I don't necessarily think that Kobe is better. I just think it is very possible and it ignorant to dismiss the idea.

3/27/2007 12:12:28 PM

its hard to compare eras in general in any sport

i completely agree jordan is the best player of his era

but aside from that...its apples and lawnmowers

3/27/2007 12:22:06 PM

^^ Dr J fade for a good reason, because Jordan, bird, and Majic came along,
Its pretty obvious to everyone with a brain that no matter what era player played in you can basically seperate the GREATS into several tiers

Jordan, Wilt
Magic, Bird, Dr. J, Kobe, Kareem
Nash, lambeer
Wade, My grandma

3/27/2007 12:52:19 PM

^dont forget bill russell...didnt that guy win like 9 straight titles in the 50's?

3/27/2007 12:54:05 PM

yeah he won like 12 titles or something but everytime he matched up against Wilt, Wilt dominated the matchup

Russell's Celtics were much better than the Warriors and Lakers teams that Wilt was on most years

3/27/2007 12:56:13 PM

^you're wrong, Russell was not dominated by wilt in that matchup, it was usually a 20 point 20 rebound game for both players

and russell has 11 rings

3/27/2007 1:48:06 PM

Quote :

"Russell vs. Chamberlain Russell Chamberlain First meeting: Nov. 7, 1959 (at Boston) Final score: Boston 115, Philadelphia 106 Regular-season meetings: 94 Russell won 57, Chamberlain 37 Postseason meetings: 49 Russell won 29, Chamberlain 20 First meeting Russell: 22 pts. (36.8 FG%), 35 Reb. Chamberlain: [b]30 pts. (31.6 FG%), 28 reb. Reg. season (head-to-head) Russell: 14.2 PPG, 22.9 RPG Chamberlain: 30.0 PPG, 28.2 RPG Postseason (head-to-head) Russell: 14.9 PPG, 24.7 RPG Chamberlain: 25.7 PPG, 28.0 RPG "

So what exactly do you mean by "Russell was not dominated by wilt in that matchup"

Looks to me like Wilt pretty much outscored and outrebounded Russell throughout their careers

3/27/2007 2:35:09 PM

i hate to always like disagreeing with you, but honestly, out of those numbers i think it shows russell was the better player...comparing 28 rebounds a game versus like 24 rebounds is just kinda dumb...i mean they are both fantastic numbers...i look at the wins and loss columns...he got it done in the regular season AND when it counted in the postseason

ok i just noticed the points per game is like half...but still, i'd rather have a winning team than the best stats

[Edited on March 27, 2007 at 2:41 PM. Reason : .]

3/27/2007 2:40:21 PM

did you miss this part?

Quote :

"Russell's Celtics were much better than the Warriors and Lakers teams that Wilt was on most years "

or do you think Brad Johnson is a better quarterback than Joe Montana strictly based on titles

and for the record, Russell was a helluva center...maybe the best defensive center ever

but Wilt was the most dominant PLAYER ever

He averaged 50 points per game one year...people said he was selfish...so the next year he led the entire league in assists

how many other players have scored 100 points in a game or pulled down 55 rebounds in a game?

none

[Edited on March 27, 2007 at 2:46 PM. Reason : .]

3/27/2007 2:43:43 PM

You weren't comparing winning teams though.....


comparing eras is somewhat difficult. But Jordan didn't play that long ago. He and Kobe are very comparable, their careers overlap.

3/27/2007 2:45:12 PM

Here is the Fucking thing.

No one in here is saying Kobe is better than Jordan.

They are from different eras and since they are both dominant players in a team sport its impossible to say for certain who is the best.

Honestly, I haven't given Kobe v. Jordan a whole lot of thought. I think Jordan understood how to win better but Kobe is more talented. I'm not sure who I would say was better and at this point its impossible to compare because Kobe's career isn't over.


THE POINT IS:

Kobe and Nash are of the same era. One player is the best PG in the league and one player is the best PLAYER in the league. It's easy to compare the two.

One of them is the ~10th best player in the league, is very exciting to watch, is white, and is a nice guy.

The other is the best player in the league, one of the greatest of all-time, is black, and is pretty much a pompous jackass.

I'll pull for Steve Nash 100 times out of 100 when he faces Kobe, but that doesn't mean I'll disrespect Kobe's game.

If you can't separate your EMOTIONS from your OPINIONS then you are a woman.

Women can't play or discuss sports, so find another forum.

[Edited on March 27, 2007 at 2:45 PM. Reason : a]

3/27/2007 2:45:17 PM

well he did play in a way shittier and less defensive era then didnt he?

like back when they played "pass the ball to the tall guy"?

[Edited on March 27, 2007 at 2:46 PM. Reason : not comparing wilt/russel- more of wilt to the time period]

[Edited on March 27, 2007 at 2:47 PM. Reason : ^do u see lebron being better than kobe when lebron is in his prime?]

3/27/2007 2:46:18 PM

^^a lot of this argument comes down to people's view of what an MVP should mean

most VALUABLE or most OUTSTANDING

course also some people act like Marion and Stoudemire are stiffs which is completely absurd

^hey they were both awesome...but (up until this year) you could make a loose comparison of Wilt : Russell = Peyton : Brady

but you're also correct in your assumption about very few big men...both of them dominated the paint in most games

Quote :

"do u see lebron being better than kobe when lebron is in his prime?"

who knows...maybe...maybe not...time will tell

[Edited on March 27, 2007 at 2:49 PM. Reason : .]

3/27/2007 2:47:40 PM

I agree with what you are saying treetwista.

I'm going to put forth an intelligent comment and I want people to respect the intelligence of it instead of making dumb arguments or pretending that Scottie Pippen isn't one of the greatest players in the history of the NBA.


If Amare Stoudamire had a season-ending injury today, the Phoenix Suns would be worse off. They would go from being one of the biggest favorites to win the championship, to an average contender at best.

If Steve Nash had a season-ending injury today, the Phoenix Suns would be DEVASTATED. They'd be very unlikely to win more than 1 series (if that) in the playoffs.


The thing is. PG is a more "IMPORTANT" position in basketball than Center is. If you don't have a PG you are completely fucked offensively. Without a center you can adjust your offense to a perimeter oriented game.

HOWEVER, if you were to hold a player draft in which every player in the league was available as a free agent... Amare Stoudamire would be selected before Steve Nash.

Why?

Because Amare Stoudamire is MUCH MORE productive than the "average" center (think Nazr Mohammed) and even MUCH MORE productive than the "good" center (think Tyson Chandler).

Steve Nash is a terrific PG no doubt. But if you were to replace Steve Nash with an "average" PG (think Andre Miller) you really wouldn't lose THAT much production. If you replaced him with a "good" PG (think Deron Williams) you'd lose even less production.


Point Guard is THE MOST CRITICAL POSITION IN BASKETBALL. WIthout a PG you simply can't win on a consistent basis. If you can't get the ball down the court, run the offense, and get the ball in the right peoples hands at the right time, YOU CAN NOT WIN.

Think NCSU basketball this season when we didn't have Atsur.



HOWEVER, it is very easy to obtain an Andre Miller, Ray Felton, EVEN ANTHONY JOHNSON who can handle PG responsibilities.

It is VERY difficult to obtain an Amare Stoudamire, Tim Duncan, or Shaquille O'Neal who can alter the outcome of the game through scoring, passing, shotblocking presence, etc



All things being equal, Kobe Bryant is FAR above the level of the "average SG" and Nash is NOT as far above the level of an "average PG"

If you take MVP too literally you will start giving it to bus drivers. After all, if he didn't drive the bus to the game the team would have forfeited the game!!!!

It's meant for the BEST player, not the guy who started the bus.



In baseball you don't compare the offensive production of a guy who plays 2B to a guy who is a DH.

You shouldn't do that in basketball either.




[Edited on March 27, 2007 at 3:07 PM. Reason : a]

3/27/2007 3:04:58 PM

word up

3/27/2007 3:16:53 PM

wow, insane, I guess Jordan had led the Wizards to an 18-win improvement from the previous season didn't matter at the age 39. Some of you need to watch more basketball before you post

3/27/2007 3:40:02 PM

and if he was half as good in the front office as he was on the court, they might've actually made the playoffs

or if he was more concerned with the team than with trying to be a 39 year old hero

3/27/2007 3:53:53 PM

^^i agree with that...jordan getting them 18 more wins at age 39 did in fact NOT matter...

3/27/2007 3:55:53 PM

if that 18 wins had gotten them to the playoffs it may have mattered

or the next year when he was healthy if he couldve gotten them to the playoffs then...it might have mattered

also the season before jordan went to the wizards, the wizards won 19 games...the fucking bobcats have won more games than that every year of their existance

its not as if they were a 40 win team and he led them to a 58-24 record

course at the same time, i dont think anybody is trying to argue anything about Wizards Jordan...I would hope we are talking about Bulls Jordan

[Edited on March 27, 2007 at 4:09 PM. Reason : .]

3/27/2007 4:03:27 PM

wizards jordan is better than .... kobe in 2025!

but seriously there is a tried and tested method to figure out who is the best.

If you had $100,000 to bet on a team, 1 with kobe in it, or 1 with jordan in it, which would you choose?

[Edited on March 27, 2007 at 5:43 PM. Reason : .]

3/27/2007 5:41:08 PM

id take 80s jordan sorry, plus my team would sell EVERY GAME OUT EVEN IF WE WERE UNDER .500.

[Edited on March 27, 2007 at 6:16 PM. Reason : (since he did NOT matter)]

3/27/2007 6:16:07 PM

Who's more talented??




i say kobe

3/27/2007 7:14:08 PM

i don't

but now with more reservations than i used to

3/27/2007 7:43:29 PM

Quote :

"If you take MVP too literally you will start giving it to bus drivers. After all, if he didn't drive the bus to the game the team would have forfeited the game!!!! "

Exactly. That's basically what I said on page 5 of this thread. People are taking this Most Valuable Player thing way too literally. I honestly think the spirit of the award is to give it to the best player in the league, not to just give it to the guy who is in the luckiest position in the league (i.e. Nash on the Suns).

Oh, and

Quote :

"you can basically seperate the GREATS into several tiers Jordan, Wilt Magic, Bird, Dr. J, Kobe, Kareem Nash, lambeer"

I really hope this is sarcasm that I'm just not picking up on, because I know you wouldn't put Steve Nash in the company with those all-time greats, right? Right?

3/27/2007 8:11:06 PM

^ you're right, i did it out of pity for all the nash lovers in this thread

3/27/2007 8:54:47 PM

is kobe top 5 of all time???

3/27/2007 9:06:35 PM

Not yet probably, let's wait until he's done to make that decision.

But he's top 25 now.

3/27/2007 9:51:13 PM

Quote :

"If you had $100,000 to bet on a team, 1 with kobe in it, or 1 with jordan in it, which would you choose?"

In general, I'd take Jordan

However if it was Doug Collins Jordan and Pippen vs Phil Jackson Kobe and Shaq I'd take the Lakers all day

3/27/2007 10:40:28 PM

you'd take 80s Jordan against 20007 kObe? You would lose. He would score buckets though, you're right.

Kobe is already top ten. He's still actually getting better.

3/28/2007 1:01:21 AM

Damn Kobe sucked tonight. 23 points. Jordan would have never done that. Bill Simmons makes an argument for Jordan in his latest basketball blog


http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/blog/index?name=simmons

3/28/2007 4:12:42 AM

^^^sorry, the 96 bulls would destroy any lakers team in the 2000s ( although phil would be against himself).

^^You are crazy, jordan would simply jump over kobe, god are you guys fucking serious. This is my last post in this thread. When Kobe actually does something that impresses me besides raping women and being selfish, I will let you know.

[Edited on March 28, 2007 at 6:59 AM. Reason : .]

3/28/2007 6:56:28 AM

You're impressed by rape and greed?

You sick bastard.

3/28/2007 7:46:46 AM

Quote :

"When Kobe actually does something that impresses me besides raping women and being selfish, I will let you know. "

3/28/2007 8:13:20 AM

1980s Jordan was far more selfish than 2007 Kobe. 80s Jordan did not have a jump shot and he sure as hell wasnt going to just "jump over" Kobe, one of the best defenders in the league. Their athleticism is a draw. Have you not watched the two of them play.

If you aren't impressed with Kobe scoring 50 pts more than once in a row, you simply wouldn't be impressed wih anything on a basketball court that isn't Jordan

When Dirk wins this mvp, he'll be the worst mvp since Iverson Barkley

3/28/2007 8:30:16 AM

You were 3-4 years old when this happened (Jordan in the eighties), how the fuck do you know? Have I watched the two, yes? Here’s something for you, Kobe wasn't even the most influential player on the team when Shaq was there, and can you say the same about Pippen and Jordan. No. Every year there is a new Jordan, carter, AI, Kobe, Lebron. What the fuck ever man. The next new guy that comes out half of you will suck his cock as well. The NBA is the only sport that makes a living on having rookie coming out and immediately comparing him to legends of the sport. It’s all old and pointless to argue about.

and I was being sarcastic with the rape thing

3/28/2007 9:28:11 AM

Quote :

"you'd take 80s Jordan against 20007 kObe? You would lose. He would score buckets though, you're right."

Quote :

"sorry, the 96 bulls would destroy any lakers team in the 2000s ( although phil would be against himself)."

did either of you even pay attention to what i said?

Quote :

"if it was Doug Collins Jordan and Pippen vs Phil Jackson Kobe and Shaq I'd take the Lakers all day"

3/28/2007 9:32:11 AM

Jordan averaged 8 assists a game 1 year in the 80's, back when he was averaging 35 ppg. His assists per game in the 80's were much higher than Kobe's ever have been. He was a much better team player throughout his career.

I can't believe we are even arguing this.

[Edited on March 28, 2007 at 9:34 AM. Reason : 2]

3/28/2007 9:33:33 AM

Jordan's career assists per game: 5.3apg
Kobe's career assists per game: 4.5apg

OMG LOOK HOW MUCH BETTER THAT IS

I DONT CARE IF KOBE SCORES 100 POINTS 10 STRAIGHT GAMES, NOBODY WILL EVER BE AS GOOD AS JORDAN!

I'm not saying Kobe is better than Jordan...I just think its sad that the idea that he could eventually be better gets immediately dismissed by so many people

3/28/2007 9:37:38 AM

sorry tree, i did say phil would have to face himself, did you read what i said? And I don't think it gets dismissed as much as a new player comes into the league and is already better..

[Edited on March 28, 2007 at 10:23 AM. Reason : .]

3/28/2007 10:22:18 AM

yeah but the 96 Bulls which probably WOULD destroy beat any Shaq Kobe team was not coached by Doug Collins

I'm just saying if you take the kids of today...kids maybe 8-16 years old or something...they don't know Jordan like we did...they know Kobe and AI and Lebron, etc...and their kids will know newer players...and D-Wade and Kobe will become like Jordan while Jordan becomes like Dr. J while everyone who remembers Dr. J play will die of old age

3/28/2007 10:27:13 AM

It took Jordan a long time to learn to play team basketball.

He got the "my way" out of his system early in his career.


Kobe started as a team player and then decided he wanted "his time". Now he realizes that he's got to play team basketball to win.


I'm not looking up the stats right now, but the year Jordan averaged 8 assists might have been the year they moved him to point guard...

3/28/2007 12:22:56 PM

pretty cool video

[link]http://http://youtube.com/watch?v=ymsZvcLg-O4[/link]

3/28/2007 12:27:11 PM

Quote :

"You were 3-4 years old when this happened (Jordan in the eighties), how the fuck do you know?"

Dude, if your profile is correct, you were at most 8 or 9 when the 80s ended, so don't try acting all high and mighty and old.

God knows you've still got the hero worship thing of an 8-9 year old going for Jordan.

3/28/2007 12:31:04 PM

cept I was old enough to go to games and actually remember

3/28/2007 1:45:27 PM