Pre Nash

13.6 ppg, 8.8 reb as a 20 year old rookie.

20.6 ppg, 9.0 reb as a 21 year old.

That's two good seasons with a me-first point guard.

Post Nash

26.0 ppg, 8.9 reb as a 22 year old.

20.4 ppg, 9.4 reb as a 24 year old.


Looks like a natural development/progression to me for a young player.


Nash on the other hand did virtually nothing his first four years in the league (despite playing in college unlike Amare who came straight from HS) and Phoenix gave up on him.

He put up some pretty reliable offensive numbers in Dallas with Nowitzki but Dallas parted ways with him because they didn't feel he was worth a fairly moderate contract. Remember, when Dallas made their one deep playoff run with Nash it was mostly due to Van Exel/Nowitzki rather than Nash.

Since Nash left, Dallas has been deeper in the postseason than any team Steve Nash has ever been a part of has gone.

He's put up terrific NUMBERS in Phoenix, no question. But on a game-by-game basis he doesn't overwhelm the other top PG's in the league (as evidenced in this series). This is partially due to his massive defensive deficiencies and partially due to Phoenix's up-tempo style and the great talent surrounding him.

He's a great PG, but by no means leaps and bounds better than any of the other three point guards (Parker, Baron Davis, Deron Williams) still remaining in the Western Conference playoffs.


When Amare was saddled with foul trouble in Game 3, Nash had a poor game.

When Amare was saddled with foul trouble in the 2nd quarter tonight, Nash did nothing.

It wasn't until the 4th quarter when Amare returned that Nash got back in any kind of groove at all. Eight turnovers is nothing to scoff at when 4.2 turnovers/game led the league this year.

The Spurs have really frustrated Nash and the Suns have relied on their superior supporting cast to keep them alive in the series.

[Edited on May 15, 2007 at 2:09 AM. Reason : a]

5/15/2007 2:05:22 AM

Quote :

"He's a great PG, but by no means leaps and bounds better than any of the other three point guards (Parker, Baron Davis, Deron Williams) still remaining in the Western Conference playoffs. "

Were you saying this last year and the year before that? I highly doubt it. You're one of those peeps who recognize talent on when they're in the lime light. Then you scream their name. Baron Davis for example, noone hardly knew the talent this guy ALWAYS HAD. And Deron Williams?!!? Give me a break. You only now let his name roll off your lips.

Quote :

"The Spurs have really frustrated Nash and the Suns have relied on their superior supporting cast to keep them alive in the series."

The spurs have done nothing (see game 2). Without the help of overly biased refs, the spurs have done nothing but been overly aggressive dirty players. They can't stop nash!!! They didn't tonight when he kept them in the game. They didn't stop him from feeding Stoudie that shrimp on a platter all night long. And thats a FACT.

Please don't get up here screaming these guys' names only because they're just now having success in the playoffs or their team remains in it. Parker is an exception. Baron Davis is awesome, but an injury plagued career has kept him down. You've NEVER screamed his name or placed him amongst your elite, so just stop it. It's getting pathetic!!!

[Edited on May 15, 2007 at 2:17 AM. Reason : .]

5/15/2007 2:10:12 AM

Quote :

"Were you saying this last year and the year before that? I highly doubt it. You're one of those peeps who recognize talent on when they're in the lime light. Then you scream their name. Baron Davis for example, noone hardly knew the talent this guy ALWAYS HAD. And Deron Williams?!!? Give me a break. You only now let his name roll off your lips."

Actually I was a huge Baron Davis fan when we drafted him and he played awesome in the playoffs back to back seasons. You know when you were still in middle school you little tigershark.

Baron Davis hasn't been a good point guard the past few seasons, his only good stints were the 2nd half of the '04-'05 season and the last couple of weeks. So no, before Baron Davis started playing well I would not have said he was playing just as well as Nash. But so far in the playoffs he has clearly outplayed Nash.

And actually I drafted Deron Williams this year on a recommendation from a Utah Jazz fan so yes, I knew he was in for a good season. He led the league in 3-pt% post-all star break his rookie season.

The guy is a tremendous two way player and after the way he owned Chris Paul his rookie year I think it was a safe prediction that he'd breakout this year. Jerry Sloan never plays rookies so it was only natural that he was going to come along a little bit slower.

I've mentioned Deron Williams plenty of times over the season and if you could get over Nash's dreamy haircut you might be able to recognize the other talent in the league too.

[Edited on May 15, 2007 at 2:21 AM. Reason : a]

5/15/2007 2:20:41 AM

Quote :

"So no, before Baron Davis started playing well I would not have said he was playing just as well as Nash. But so far in the playoffs he has clearly outplayed Nash."

In your rhetoric, the definition of "outplayed" means "outscored". So, no wonder you can't hold a valid argument. And you're really kidding yourself with Deron Williams. That team relies more on Boozer then we do the middle east for oil. Truth be told.

You're just an overzealous fan of these men. That's why you support them so much in your arguments.

Quote :

"And actually I drafted Deron Williams this year on a recommendation from a Utah Jazz fan so yes, I knew he was in for a good season."

You drafting someone on a recommendation from someone else, but yet you take the credit..... I'm lost....

[Edited on May 15, 2007 at 2:26 AM. Reason : .]

5/15/2007 2:26:03 AM

When a reliable NBA buff watches ~75 games of the Utah Jazz season and tells me he's a good player on the verge of a breakout season I listen. I "knew" he was going to be a good player because I listened to someone who knew what he was talking about.

That is one reason I consistently know more about sports than most people on this board. Because I read from reliable sources and watch the games with my own two eyes instead of watching highlight reels on Sportscenter.


I've completely owned you on this page and its amazing you keep coming back for more.

When you're old enough to grow facial hair and lose your virginity I might start listening to the garbage coming out of your mouth. Otherwise there's no point in arguing with a fanboy that never even played a real sport in high school.

5/15/2007 2:34:22 AM

Listen to what you're saying here. You have to RELY on the wisdom of other guys (FANS). Then you spout it out like some sports guru. Anyone can do that RDU. You've convinced yourself that you're this knowledgeable source, after admitting you get insiders from NBA buffs (Overzealous FANS) !!! Then you admit that you never screamed Baron Davis's name before this season. So who owned who? ahahhahahah I just smoked you, son.

You admit listening to another dude. But then you spit it out at others like they're your words. Wow. You just exposed yourself. Fact.


flame on!!

*disclaimer* there is nothing wrong with reliable sources. I advocate using them. But there is a difference between reliable sources and overzealous drunken idiots.

[Edited on May 15, 2007 at 2:43 AM. Reason : .]

5/15/2007 2:40:12 AM

baron is getting a lot of run now yes but he has been in the limelight for quite some time...like ^ i am a big baron fan and have been since his ucla days...i am a huge marion fan as well...from just skimming through this thread i thought you simply disliked nash because everyone else like him...yes, if he were black he most likely not be so hyped but when you are picking a player to run our offense he is the top pg...i myself am a chauncey/chris paul but steve nash is class

5/15/2007 2:41:45 AM

Playoff Statistics:

Nash: 18.4 ppg, 3.1 reb, 13.4 ast, 0.3 stl, 44.5% FG, terrible defender

Deron: 17.8 ppg, 4.8 reb, 9.1 ast, 1.2 stl, 43.5% FG, very strong defender

Kidd: 14.6 pgg, 10.3 reb, 12.2 ast, 1.8 stl, 46.5% FG, average defender

Davis: 25.7 ppg, 4.8 reb, 6.4 ast, 2.6 stl, 53.1% FG, good defender



Playoff effiency rankings:

Baron Davis #3
Jason Kidd #7
C. Billups #10 (who i didnt even get around to mentioning yet since he's in the East)
Steve Nash #14


Go home, little E.




For the record (and the zillionith time) I like Nash just fine, he's an elite PG but his two MVP's are a joke. This was his best season yet and it still wasn't quite MVP worthy.

Quote :

" Listen to what you're saying here. You have to RELY on the wisdom of other guys (FANS). Then you spout it out like some sports guru. Anyone can do that RDU. You've convinced yourself that you're this knowledgeable source, after admitting you get insiders from NBA buffs (Overzealous FANS) !!! Then you admit that you never screamed Baron Davis's name before this season. So who owned who? ahahhahahah I just smoked you, son. You admit listening to another dude. But then you spit it out at others like they're your words. Wow. You just exposed yourself. Fact."

You're really an idiot. You fail miserably at reading comprehension. Believe it or not I didn't catch that many Jazz games last season. I don't like the Jazz, I don't have NBA ticket, and they didn't make the playoffs.

By nearly all accounts Deron had a "disappointing" rookie season. So when i ask a guy who has NBA ticket and loves the Jazz "what do you think about deron williams" and he says "he played well the 2nd half of the season, rookies don't thrive under Sloan, he's in for a big year".

Then i do my own research and discover he led the league in 3-pt% post-all star break and realize Stockton had poor numbers his rookie year under Sloan.

That's when i say "hey Deron is going to be good" and i draft him and he helps me win yet another fantasy title. There is nothing wrong with listening to people who have a good understanding of basketball to supplement your knowledge when you have limited exposure to a team or player.

And you must have missed the point when I said Baron Davis was terrific early in his career for Charlotte and I was an enormous fan. He fell off the face of the earth for awhile and devolved into an average PG (ballhog with bad shot selection). His only good play in recent years was immediately after being traded to the Warriors two seasons ago and his torrid play in the past few weeks.

Why would I make the claim that Baron was playing as well as Nash when he was not playing well? That's pure idiocy.

As of right now, he is outplaying Steve Nash without a doubt. He dethroned the defending Western Conference Champs. A team that last year beat the same Spurs team that Nash is struggling against as we speak.


I can't even wait to make my next post. I just discovered a real gem.

[Edited on May 15, 2007 at 3:07 AM. Reason : a]

5/15/2007 2:52:41 AM

Damn guys, I really hate to put this thread to rest but I just located the deal breaker. Anyone that still desires to hang onto their Nash threeway fantasies should probably not read his player bio on ESPN.com

Quote :

" 2005-06 season: Nash put together the best season of his career, leading the league in both true shooting percentage and assists while keeping the Suns at the top of the leader board in offensive efficiency. For his efforts he won a second straight MVP award, and in a way, it's unfortunate that he won. Instead of focusing on what a great run Nash has put together in Phoenix, our attention has inevitably turned to what a sham the MVP vote has been the past two seasons. Part of the problem was that it was difficult for voters to compare apples to apples. Other than appealing to innate common sense (i.e., you really think this guy is better than Dwyane Wade?), it's tough to put together a compelling argument to refute the "he makes everybody better" case made for Nash, because his main competitors in the MVP chase were mostly renowned for their scoring exploits. And in a weird way, maybe we shouldn't bash the voters so much. One can argue Nash's win last season wasn't a case of voter brainlock as much as it was a failure of statistical literacy throughout the game. If you break down the MVP chorus for Nash last season, it really broke down a failure to understand the importance of two simple concepts: per-minute averages, and age. The linchpin of any MVP argument for Nash went something along the lines of "seven Suns averaged career-highs because his passing makes everybody better." By the old standards of NBA analysis, this passed for a convincing argument -- what could be more conclusive than an increased scoring average? But look a little closer and that argument has more holes than Swiss cheese. One of the seven names is an obvious red herring -- um, did it strike anyone else as odd to include Nash himself in the list? A second is also easily dismissed -- Eddie House was Nash's backup and was rarely on the court with him at the same time. But the other five, who were the centerpiece of Nash's argument, all highlight the problem with relying on per-game averages as a measure of player performance. To wit: -- Raja Bell had never played more than 28 minutes per game in any season, but played 37.5 in Phoenix. He was no better than in the previous two seasons -- believe it or not -- he just played a lot more. -- James Jones had never played more than 18 minutes per game, but played 23.6 last season for the Suns. -- Leandro Barbosa had never played more than 21 minutes, but saw 27.9 last season. -- Boris Diaw hadn't seen more than 25 minutes per game, until getting 35.5 a season ago. -- Shawn Marion had played more than 40 minutes per game on two other occasions, but on a pace-adjusted basis he was on the court for more possessions than at any time in his career. So wait, they were on the court more than ever before, and they averaged career highs? Really? You don't say? Of course, I'm oversimplifying. While it's obvious that playing time was the driving force behind the career highs, a few of them really were better than the year before -- and in a couple of cases, like Boris Diaw's, they were substantially better. This is where the age question comes into play. The two Suns to enjoy breakout Suns with Nash were Diaw and Amare Stoudemire, who at the time were 23 and 22 respectively. The other Suns to show rapid improvement, Barbosa and Joe Johnson, were also 23. In fact, if you break down all the players who played with Nash the past two seasons, you'll find the younger guys got better, the middle-aged guys (Marion, Bell, Quentin Richardson) stayed the same, and the older guys (Kurt Thomas, Jim Jackson, Walter McCarty) got worse. Much like any other team, in other words. This isn't rocket science -- the Suns just understood that young players can often improve rapidly, and made the effort to acquire guys like Diaw, Barbosa and James Jones. So while Nash was fantastic, understanding of the importance of age and per-minute averages on performance goes a long way toward explaining what happened in Phoenix last season. "

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/players/hollinger?statsId=3103


OUCH.

Argument over. His own fucking ESPN player card really settles the issue.


Great player but not an MVP caliber. Glad I could help put things in perspective for the Earl's of the world.

5/15/2007 3:20:21 AM

Everything ESPN says is gospel

5/15/2007 8:22:01 AM

When you can't attack an argument, attack the source. It's what all the stupid people are doing.

5/15/2007 8:42:48 AM

good argument!!

5/15/2007 8:48:19 AM

It was a good argument, because instead of countering the argument you poke fun at ESPN, which not everything they say is gospel of course, but much is.

Which means that you have nothing to say to the argument.

Great article btw.

5/15/2007 9:14:17 AM

Actually

I wasnt poking fun at the ESPN article

I was poking fun that rally thought he found the holy grail, the ultimate resolution to the argument

simply because espns player bio!!1! says so!

I dont care one way or the other about Nash. He is a fantastic player, Mvp maybe? maybe not, doesnt matter. Its an ambiguous rewardaward.

[Edited on May 15, 2007 at 9:25 AM. Reason : *]

5/15/2007 9:24:50 AM

Well I certainly did locate the article that puts to bed the "Nash makes his teammates SOOOO much better".

That should be enough since anyone watching the games can clearly see he isn't the best player in the league based on his size and skill set.

Quote :

"2006-07 outlook: The Suns have some mild concerns about wearing Nash out when it matters most, particularly given his helter-skelter style. He's 32 and played a career-high 35.4 minutes per game last season, and seemed to run of gas in the postseason, including a major shooting slump in the second round against the Clippers. As a result, the Suns signed Marcus Banks in the offseason to ease some of the regular-season strain on their chief orchestrator. Look for Nash's minutes to average closer to 32 or so during the regular season, which would dial back some of his per-game averages and could cost him a third straight assist title. He's also projected for a modest drop-off statistically, which we'd expect from anybody who had a career season at 31. But the good news here is that big point guards who can shoot historically have aged very well -- including his most similar player and rival for Pacific Division supremacy, Sam Cassell. Most similar at age: Sam Cassell"

I'm not familiar with this Sam Cassell character. Tell me, how many MVPs has he won?

5/15/2007 9:39:35 AM

So the basis of your argument is that ESPN compared Nash to Cassell at the beginning of the season? What kind of argument is that?

5/15/2007 11:00:26 AM

No that's not the basis of my argument at all.

The basis of my argument is what I've said all along.

He isn't the best player in the league. Everyone agrees with that, but I always got countered with the "but he makes his teammates SOOOO much better" and damn if i didnt finally find the article/statistics that basically wash that argument out too.


The Sam Cassell thing is just a funny little point to even further discredit the Nash for MVP argument.
It's not the basis for anything.

5/15/2007 11:10:56 AM

Best?

Valuable?

are they the same?

Dunno. The award isnt well defined. why do you people keep arguing about it?

5/15/2007 11:18:53 AM

Alright im off to the beach for the week.

Good luck to the Sunnies.

5/15/2007 12:14:16 PM

i'm glad 10 years ago we werent bombarded with idiotic faggots preaching for john stockton to win mvp awards over olajuwon and jordan

5/15/2007 1:09:14 PM

everyone can stop trying now cause Tree just won this thread hands down

5/15/2007 1:12:22 PM

i wish, but not really because common sense doesnt hold as much weight as being able to relate to a goofy white boy who plays in the nba, regardless of how much better players like kobe, wade, duncan, etc are

5/15/2007 1:14:47 PM

Quote :

"Playoff effiency rankings: Baron Davis #3 Jason Kidd #7 C. Billups #10 (who i didnt even get around to mentioning yet since he's in the East) Steve Nash #14"

This is exactly why I just skip over most of rallydurham when he posts. For the NBA it is all about rankings....but when we argue Mike Vick it is all about talent. What is Vick rated???

5/15/2007 1:30:02 PM

Billups has championships and Kidd has played in the Finals multiple times...Nash hasnt

5/15/2007 1:31:51 PM

What the fuck does that have to do with this season's MVP award?

Hey lets give it to Kobe because he won 3 championships back in the day

5/15/2007 1:44:16 PM

just seems like the second coming of christ (steve nash) would at least be able to get to the nba finals with a team that talented...unless of course he's overrated

5/15/2007 1:46:58 PM

Quote :

"i'm glad 10 years ago we werent bombarded with idiotic faggots preaching for john stockton to win mvp awards over olajuwon and jordan"

[/thread]

If Earl had existed then, I'm sure we would have

5/15/2007 2:03:42 PM

Quote :

"just seems like the second coming of christ (steve nash) would at least be able to get to the nba finals with a team that talented...unless of course he's overrated"

That talented.....I just don't understand where all this talent is. Outside of Marion and Amare this team is a bunch of nobodies (Barbosa, Raja Bell, James Jones, Boris Diaw) or washed up old guys (Jalen Rose, Kurt Thomas, Eric Piatkowski) that nobody really wanted or heard off. How come these guys were nothing before they got out in the sun?

San Antonio has former all-starts on their bench. Look at Finley, Horry, and Barry for example. These guys would start for most NBA teams.

5/15/2007 2:09:31 PM

Barbosa would start for 2/3 of the teams in the NBA.

Robert Horry would start for 2/3 of the teams in the NBDL.

5/15/2007 2:11:51 PM

obviously Amare and Marion are nasty...but Phoenix had the 2nd best record in the league...Bell is a great perimeter defender and he led the league in 3 pointers made this year, while shooting 41% from behind the arc...also Barbosa got 6th man of the year...and most of his playing time was in relief of Nash at the PG position (aka Nash didnt really make Barbosa better)...and yes the Spurs have a nice bench...they are deep and thats one of the reasons I picked them to beat Phoenix in this series

also whats the difference in "washed up old guys" and "former all stars"

also didnt Jalen make an all star team sometime? cant recall...i know barry and horry never sniffed an all star game (unless you count all star saturday night)

5/15/2007 2:13:39 PM

^^How can you insult one of the greatest role-players of all time like that?

5/15/2007 2:16:12 PM

^^^^barry was never that good...and he's 36 now. horry was a good role player and is now like 37. finley is 34...and the only one of the three "all stars" you mentioned that actually was...twice. and i am confident that horry and barry would start for no one. finley could start for a several teams...and does for the spurs. i don't see your point.

barbosa and bell are legit players...diaw is a decent player as well.

the suns are more talented than the spurs, but coming into the playoffs i picked the spurs to win it all and i'll stick with that...

5/15/2007 5:38:13 PM

its kind of like a colts/patriots thing...the colts are better, but the patriots win in the playoffs

obviously spurs=patriots, suns=colts

course that type comparison just doesnt work as well after indy won the SB last year

5/15/2007 5:39:57 PM

"Nash is THE best player in the league at leading his team and getting his team to do what they're supposed to do"
- Pardon the Interuption

[Edited on May 15, 2007 at 5:46 PM. Reason : n]

5/15/2007 5:46:00 PM

you know you could say that about kobe or wade or lebron or duncan or garnett...but you wouldnt need the whole "at leading his team and getting his team to do what they're supposed to do" part

5/15/2007 5:47:31 PM

How many best players can there be?

5/15/2007 5:56:38 PM

Quote :

"noone hardly knew the talent this guy ALWAYS HAD. And Deron Williams?!!?"

haha that is ridiculous, everybody knew how good baron davis was. and deron has been getting hype since last year.

5/15/2007 6:45:42 PM

and ladanian tomlinson is the best player in the league.

5/15/2007 6:55:25 PM

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him hit an open 15 footer.

5/15/2007 8:45:00 PM

Quote :

"Robert Horry would start for 2/3 of the teams in the NBDL."

LOL

can we just skip the banter and just realize that detroit will be the only team standing when all is said and done

5/15/2007 9:29:43 PM

I got the Spurs beating them like they did two years ago

Rasheeds gonna leave Horry wide open again

except this time instead of hit a 3, Robert's just gonna punch him in the white spot

[Edited on May 15, 2007 at 10:09 PM. Reason : z]

5/15/2007 10:07:21 PM

Detroit ain't gonna make it to the finals.

5/15/2007 10:12:26 PM

I agree, Steve Nash should have been the league MVP. Steve Nash may not be a flashy player who can throw it down, but he can score just as well as anyone, and he's probably the smartest player in league. He controls the game, in a way no one in the league can do. He doesn't, thats his one weakness, but his offense basically is his defense. And the truth is, if u take Steve Nash away from the suns, raja bell, shawn marion, boris diaw, and leandro barbosa wouldnt be as good as they are now, Nash makes the team flow. Steve Nash, my MVP.

5/15/2007 10:13:15 PM

Steve Nash looked like a regular kobe bryant on that last second shot that went straight off the backboard

85 points without Amare. What a stud.

5/18/2007 8:16:50 AM

Kobe never misses

San Antonio is last in the league in defense

5/18/2007 8:33:06 AM

Kobe has to play every night with limited options and when he cant beat a loaded team people say "well that proves Nash is better than Kobe"

But then with limited options at home Phoenix can only muster 85 points.

And the "MVP" is taking shots that barely graze the backboard with 10 seconds left. Absolutely terrible shot selection I don't know what the hell he was thinking.


P.S. I think the Suns win tonight and then roll in game 7. The Suns really seem hungry this year and the Spurs just can't seem to get it going for some reason. Nash is gonna come out fired up tonight and the Spurs have had no answer for Stoudamire.

5/18/2007 8:51:52 AM

they dont need an answer

you only get 6 fouls

5/18/2007 8:53:13 AM

Quote :

"and he's probably the smartest player in league"

yep...cause he's white

lets see what david from phoenix arizona says

Quote :

"Nash is outstanding, but his influence on his other teammates is overstated. For example, you suggest that Marion and Stoudemire would not make the all-star team without Nash. And yet, Marion actually DID make the all-star team before Nash joined the Suns. Also, Stoudemire won rookie of the year before Nash joined, forecasting Stoudemire's future all-star potential. Marion and Stoudemire may not be the players they are without Nash, but Nash would not be the player his is without Marion and Stoudemire. Their unique styles and skill sets all compliment each other. Dirk does not have the same level of quality players on his team, but he has led his team to the best record in the league. Even though I am a HUGE Phoenix Suns fan (yes, I live in Phoenix and have watched nearly every Suns game since long before Nash joined), I have to be honest and objective - Dirk deserves the award this year. "

5/18/2007 10:07:07 AM

I dunno, Dirk's team is pretty damn good

5/18/2007 6:18:20 PM

silence in this thread for some reason.


Is it because Nash got outplayed by Parker again last night?


3 points through 3 quarters? That's just not gonna cut it.


Maybe next year.

5/19/2007 4:43:36 PM