Quote :

"Mr Scumples, you're a bit late. It's already happened. The first state has already allowed CCW on campus. That just opens the door for more states to follow through once we get rid of the mentally incompetent idiots that use fantasy to argue against facts."

Yeah, Hawaii and Vermont allow gay marriages too, but I bet that's one thing you don't want other states to follow suit with.

All I hear is this talk about fantasy land but...

All you're relying on is a bunch of anecdotal statistics you could really argue either way with.

And no one has answered my question yet. What are some opinions of the students of Duke and the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill on this matter? They are ultimately affected by a HUGE reason you're all forcefeeding us to make us think carrying guns around would solve all of our problems. If you're going to make stupid fucking generalizations based on some shit you pulled off the internet, surely I can correlate rationality with fucking intellect here.

3/20/2008 6:58:25 PM

Quote :

"What you don't know is the system used for background checks prior to handgun purchases is so under funded that most states don't enter their data into the system. "

And how does this help ANY kind of arguments that "the system" in place of protecting (predicting, really) the mental stability of anyone given the go-ahead on concealing deadly weapons is flawless (or at least very reliable)?

3/20/2008 7:02:20 PM

Quote :

"I.E. you cant shoot someone who is hitting you or beating you, but you could shoot someone with a knife."

Well, considering I am a tiny girl, anyone beating me who was easily twice my size could be utilizing deadly force right... so what's the verdict there?

Also, just to be sure (and this is from 3+ pages ago)... shoot 'em in the front. That way you don't even have to mess with the from behind/un-aware/yada-yada-yada issue.

[Edited on March 20, 2008 at 7:22 PM. Reason : sp]

3/20/2008 7:21:58 PM

I don't know. If I were you all, I'd seriously think about the repercussions of your little sit-in here.

It's going to draw local news attention (with the very likelyhood of being negative attention, since it's very easy to scan out some Bo from Catawba county in a John Deere hat to interview with), you're further isolating NC State from the other local campuses (assuming my question went unanswered for 2 pages for a reason), and seeing as how they're people just on the wolf web vehemently despising the idea you're in favor of, you're going to alienate a large group of students from their own fellow classmates.

I wish there was enough passion to carry around something for all the poor soldiers that have died in Iraq or enough passion to protest something worthwhile instead of some little bitchfit about not being able to carry a firearm somewhere. The word primadonna comes to mind...

3/20/2008 7:23:18 PM

^ so people can only protest or worry about one thing at a time? Single track and very small minded

3/20/2008 7:48:07 PM

Quote :

" Meanwhile we have a long list of shootings that indicate guns in the hands of civilians is a bad idea."

And yet:

Quote :

"I wouldn't shit anything simply because I'm getting a permit myself. "

So what makes you so unique and special that a gun in your hands isn't a bad idea?

3/20/2008 7:59:48 PM

^^huh?

3/20/2008 8:02:51 PM

Quote :

"Yeah, Hawaii and Vermont allow gay marriages too, but I bet that's one thing you don't want other states to follow suit with. ....."

As a matter of fact, I support gay marriage 100%. It's not any more or less "true love" than a male and a female.

Quote :

"All you're relying on is a bunch of anecdotal statistics you could really argue either way with. "

Then feel free to use them. So far, you haven't given any argument using any sort of factual evidence. We've used them to argue our case. Feel free to show me how they support yours.

Quote :

"And no one has answered my question yet. What are some opinions of the students of Duke and the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill on this matter? They are ultimately affected by a HUGE reason you're all forcefeeding us to make us think carrying guns around would solve all of our problems. If you're going to make stupid fucking generalizations based on some shit you pulled off the internet, surely I can correlate rationality with fucking intellect here. "

Let's see here. We're on the WOLF WEB. How many people here are students of UNC or Duke? I don't speak to many students at UNC or Duke so I couldn't tell you what their opinions are. If it's that important, why don't you ask them. I fail to see what difference it makes though. Are you going to base your decision on theirs? Do you view UNC & Duke students as some divine omniscient group? Apparently you don't realize that this is NOT a NCSU thing. This is a NATIONAL thing. We're not forcefeeding YOU shit. This is going on throughout the U.S. Amazing, isn't it? There's others out there who actually give a shit about their rights being affected because of idiocy & ignorance besides those on tww. As far as rationality, I've yet to see a single anti-CCW argument that was rational or intelligent. They're all based upon emotion and "what-ifs" because the viewpoints are simply not supported by the facts & statistics. There are NO facts or statistics that show CCW permit holders in a negative light. They ALL show CCW permit holders to be more responsible than the average citizen (even the average LEO). Violent crime stats have also shown a very odd downward trend that seems to follow the popularity (i.e. commonality) of CCW permits.

WHERE are the stats showing CCW permit holders being a menace to society? WHERE are the stats that show shootings increasing along with increasing numbers of CCW permits being issued? Hell, where are the news stories about CCW permit holders shooting random people when they get pissed off? The Brady bunch & the rest of the anti's all said that these things would happen if CCW permits were issued. Where is it? If it's not there, then what the FUCK makes you think that a school is going to make it all change? That's the one thing that you've repeatedly not answered. WHY IS A SCHOOL DIFFERENT THAN THE STREET OUTSIDE IT?

Quote :

"And how does this help ANY kind of arguments that "the system" in place of protecting (predicting, really) the mental stability of anyone given the go-ahead on concealing deadly weapons is flawless (or at least very reliable)? "

The system to obtain a purchase permit /= the system to obtain a CCW permit. A purchase permit is basically BS. If you don't have any records of violent crimes, you can get one. Not the same as a CCW permit. Again, the statistics show this. Perhaps if you would open your eyes, you could begin to understand it.

Quote :

"Well, considering I am a tiny girl, anyone beating me who was easily twice my size could be utilizing deadly force right... so what's the verdict there? "

It's very unlikely that you would not be found justified in using deadly force. Remember, there's no black & white rules here. If you shoot someone, you're going to be investigated. There's a decent chance that you will spend the night in jail or even go to trial. It's all based upon human opinion. Someone that is 6'-3" & 280lbs. could obviously cause some serious damage to someone that is 5'-2" & 100lbs. However, if that 5'-2" person has had training in martial arts, the question is going to be raised on whether a shooting was necessary. Sucks but that's the way it is.

Quote :

"or enough passion to protest something worthwhile instead of some little bitchfit about not being able to carry a firearm somewhere"

You're right. The 2nd amendment isn't worth fighting for. After all, who really cares about our rights.

As for the soldiers, I seriously hope you're joking. If not, you are amazingly dense. There are protests, rallys, fund raisers, parades, prayer groups, vigils, care packages, etc. etc. etc. every day. Maybe you really do need to open your eyes. Here's a hint, check the back of the fucking cars in front of you next time you're on the road. See those American Flag "ribbons"? How about those USMC, ARMY, NAVY, etc. stickers? It's funny that you want to bring that up. You're not likely to find a more patriotic person that supports our troops 100% than a gun owner.

3/20/2008 8:14:18 PM

Quote :

"However, if that 5'-2" person has had training in martial arts, the question is going to be raised on whether a shooting was necessary. Sucks but that's the way it is."

First off, thank you, someone, for acknowledging that double-standard under the law. For some reason, us martial artists are magically supposed to be more effecient at fighting than Joe Schmoe on the street, and are expected to be able to defend ourselves from knives bare-handed, even if we've trained in purely sport-based martial arts. (Not talking myself, because I actually teach specific self-defense classes, but just saying, a judo or tae kwon do artist is not nessecarily able to practically defend themselves AT ALL.)

Quote :

"Apparently you don't realize that this is NOT a NCSU thing. This is a NATIONAL thing."

Even though, yes, this is a national issue, and I support it entirely, I would be quite interested to see how support for this would fall out by school or by state. Stereotyping would tell us that the majority of the schools supporting this would be in the Southern US, and at poorer public institutions like NC State, rather than richer private institutions like Duke. But, I'd like to see how the support really comes through.

3/20/2008 8:26:45 PM

People, don't feed the trolls.

3/20/2008 8:27:19 PM

Quote :

"Let's see here. We're on the WOLF WEB. How many people here are students of UNC or Duke? I don't speak to many students at UNC or Duke so I couldn't tell you what their opinions are. If it's that important, why don't you ask them. I fail to see what difference it makes though. Are you going to base your decision on theirs? Do you view UNC & Duke students as some divine omniscient group?"

Um, didn't you use that Eve Carson incident as well as that other dude at Duke that got shot as examples to why you support slangin' guns? I think it'd be more important for you to "ask them."

Quote :

"WHERE are the stats showing CCW permit holders being a menace to society? "

Uh, doesn't this show:


That there's a percentage of CCW holders convicted of MURDER? It doesn't matter the percentage. If there's any chance at all that a CCW holder could be convicted/prone to a violent crime (and you're giving him license to carry a means of such), you're not going to convince anybody that cares otherwise that we should tote guns around in places like classrooms, banks and airports.

I'm fucking done with this.

By the way, part of being self-righteous is getting in your threads like this and soapboxing it up when no one else gives a shit enough to argue with your stupid asses because you're the ones that actually cannot accept why someone would be opposed to such a worthless idea. It's not worth getting into threads like this and having a logical discussion when it's YOU who cannot accept why someone else is opposed to SUCH AN AWESOME OPINION OF YOUR OWN. Someone mentioned VACUOUS even; and this is the epitome of that word.

Go have your little protest. Give NC State the good right-crusted image that you all are so insisting to give it, because US LIBERAL SOCIALISTS OPPOSED TO YOU WILL NOT STAND, MAN.

3/20/2008 8:32:19 PM

^murder can happen any time any place. You also don't know the circumstances in which they were convicted.

The fact that CCW holders have a 400% less chance of violent crime should say wonders. Not that the fact that someone commited crime so no one should have a weapon. Guess what, the non-law abiding people still have guns, and they are bigger and better than what we are legally allowed to carry.

3/20/2008 8:36:10 PM

Quote :

"Um, didn't you use that Eve Carson incident as well as that other dude at Duke that got shot as examples to why you support slangin' guns? I think it'd be more important for you to "ask them." "

Uhh... You asked for examples. I gave them to you. I also said VT, not Duke. I HAVE spoken to several students of VT that fully supported CCW on campus. The opinions of students attending schools where shootings have occured are not higher than my own opinion just because there wasn't a massacre while I was attending NCSU. What matters to me is that the 2nd amendment says that I have a right to keep & bear arms. The law says that I have a right to carry a concealed firearm on my person. FUCKING IDIOTS say that I shouldn't be allowed to carry on school grounds because of some fictional or imaginary ideas toward guns. Further, I am a victim of gun violence so by your own reasoning, my opinion apparently matters more than yours. What do you have to say about that?

As for your argument using the stats, it's very flawed. Perhaps you should recognize that murder is a definite. There is nothing showing that a CCW permit holder is more dangerous than an average citizen. The only thing shown is that CCW permit holders are SAFER than the average citizen. Try again.

3/20/2008 9:02:23 PM

Don't you understand [user]Mr Scumples[/user], people without CCW permits are just about 4.5 times less likely to commit murder!

The fact that there are 92 times as many people without CCW and the ratio is that low and you're trying to use it as proof is laughable.

Meanwhile, lets just ignore how neck and neck aggrevated sexual assault is.

3/20/2008 9:22:26 PM

this is some mighty good trolling

3/20/2008 9:29:49 PM

hey scrumples, stein, whoever...can you please answer my question?

in case you forgot: if CHL holders were allowed to carry in banks would there would be an increase in bank robberies/gun violence in banks due to this? can you answer that please?

3/20/2008 9:38:00 PM

^^ and they just keep on feeding them

3/20/2008 9:40:52 PM

seriously...people need to stop feeding them

however, i would figure that Stein would be all for people having guns because his people get shit on all the time

the last time everyone gave up their guns, about 50 million people died

[Edited on March 20, 2008 at 9:50 PM. Reason : 

3/20/2008 9:46:42 PM

Quote :

"That there's a percentage of CCW holders convicted of MURDER? It doesn't matter the percentage. If there's any chance at all that a CCW holder could be convicted/prone to a violent crime (and you're giving him license to carry a means of such), you're not going to convince anybody that cares otherwise that we should tote guns around in places like classrooms, banks and airports. I'm fucking done with this. "

you actually used THOSE stats to argue your point? Please tell me it wasn't with a straight face.

The numbers are so overwhelmingly in favor of CCP holders that there is basically no rational argument against them. If you object for irrational, emotional reasons, just say so.

The standard isn't perfection, anyway--it's net preservation of life and limb, and I don't think that's really up for debate.

3/20/2008 9:46:46 PM

Quote :

" If you object for irrational, emotional reasons, just say so."

Okay, you got me.

MCCAIN 08!!!

3/20/2008 9:48:46 PM

Sarcastic or not, that constitutes concession of the point in my book.

[Edited on March 20, 2008 at 9:51 PM. Reason : not that the point was really contested to begin with]

[Edited on March 20, 2008 at 9:51 PM. Reason : and not that McCain is a darling of the gun crowd]

3/20/2008 9:50:34 PM

Don't put your religion on me, sister.

3/20/2008 9:52:04 PM

Also, I like it how that picture is from http://www.facebook.com

3/20/2008 9:55:34 PM

Quote :

"^murder can happen any time any place. You also don't know the circumstances in which they were convicted."

Exactly... this is why we do not want to allow any guns on campus... so a normal situation doesn't get out of hand.

[Edited on March 20, 2008 at 10:25 PM. Reason : .]

3/20/2008 10:24:04 PM

I would argue that any situation which would cause someone to draw a firearm is already out of hand regardless of the reason the person chose to draw. For that matter any situation which would make someone engage in self defense is already out of hand. Maybe its just me but I really can't think of any "normal" situations that are "under control " that would suddenly be out of control if a legally licenced ccp holder had his gun on him. Certainly if any existed, one would tthey would apply everywhere and not just the hallowed grounds of acedamia.

[Edited on March 20, 2008 at 10:37 PM. Reason : more]

3/20/2008 10:30:50 PM

^^ becky,

the stats are pretty clear regarding people who are legally licensed to carry firearms concealed. they simply aren't a threat. the frequency at which they commit crimes involving weapons is all but negligable.

whether you realize it or not, you and i are around people who are legally carrying concealed firearms every day in all sorts of places aside from college campuses. again, if the anecdotal evidence isn't enough for you (when was the last time you heard of a CCP holder committing a violent crime?), the stats overwhelmingly suggest that they are a non-threat. there is no reason to believe that these people who are already carrying everywhere else are going to spontaneously go raving mad, howl at the moon, and start shooting the place up just because they walk across the street from the Bell Tower Mart (where they are legally carrying) onto the NCSU campus (where carry is prohibited).

nobody is talking about arming the student population. you'd still have to be 21+, legally own the handgun, and have a concealed carry permit for it. all people are arguing is that--particularly in light of violent crimes to include mass murders on college campuses--it's silly to prohibit people who are legally carrying across the street from continuing to carry once the street signs turn red. every logical, legal, statistical, anecdotal, and philosophical argument I can think of points to this conclusion.

3/20/2008 11:45:48 PM

^^Yes but an out of control situation with a gun is different than an out of control situation without a gun... what happened to old fashioned fist fights?

^Hi Josh. I'm not worried about CCP holders being threats. I would agree that they are not. I'm worried about the ability of any one seeing a gun on any person at all and knowing that it shouldn't be there. Currently, if I were to see someone on campus with a gun, I know to either tackle them or run.

3/21/2008 4:42:13 AM

Quote :

"the stats are pretty clear regarding people who are legally licensed to carry firearms concealed. they simply aren't a threat. the frequency at which they commit crimes involving weapons is all but negligable."

THe statistics they're using in this thread show a populace that is outnumbered 92:1.

I'm pretty sure you could find any number of other groups with that ratio that have committed no murders, aggrevated assault, or sexual assaults whatsoever.

[Edited on March 21, 2008 at 7:07 AM. Reason : .]

3/21/2008 7:07:17 AM

nobody is saying you're going to shoot up a school because you're suddenly allowed to carry your concealed weapon on campus. We're just saying there is no need for it. Especially if you're the hero type and you end up shooting more innocent by standers and getting yourself shot trying to save the day in a shooting spree. Not to mention the kids getting bullied that may resort to their gun as a means to stand up for themselves. We all know State is full of these types of nerdy kids. See TWW users for examples.

3/21/2008 8:21:38 AM

i think we should give all 18 year old freshmen concealed carry permits...all of them...at least then, complete retards like Scrumples and Golovko would actually have some type of rationale for their completely baseless and fear-driven claims

Quote :

"nobody is saying you're going to shoot up a school because you're suddenly allowed to carry your concealed weapon on campus"

you and plenty of other people keep painting that as a likely scenario...dont deny it now...just go back and read through the thread

Quote :

"We're just saying there is no need for it."

Theres no need for free speech on campus either, and campus security should be able to illegally search and sieze any of your property that they want.

Quote :

"Especially if you're the hero type and you end up shooting more innocent by standers and getting yourself shot trying to save the day in a shooting spree. Not to mention the kids getting bullied that may resort to their gun as a means to stand up for themselves. We all know State is full of these types of nerdy kids. See TWW users for examples."

You are a complete fucking moron who is totally ignorant of the requirements and procedures necessary to obtain a CCP

3/21/2008 9:02:25 AM

who actually gets bullied in college? this is not middle school or high school...

The whole deal with a ccp is that it is concealed, no one knows it is there, a hero would get no satisfaction out of just being able to carry since no one else would know they were carrying in the first place...

CCP holders also have to pass a proficiency test to acquire the permit. This would mean that they know how to use the gun and are not going to shoot up innocent by standers.

[/troll feeding]

I do agree that I do not see this passing on our campus, and I'm out of school now, so it would not benefit me at all. There are too many misinformed individuals to get it done I believe.

3/21/2008 9:13:10 AM

when i visit raleigh i'll just take my chances on some tried by 12 versus carried by 6 shit

3/21/2008 9:23:26 AM

HALF OF YOU FAGG0TS ON HERE DONT REALIZE WHEN YOU HAVE A CONCEALED WEAPON, IT-IS-NOT-SHOWING.

DO WE HAVE TO SPELL IT OUT.

3/21/2008 9:39:45 AM

rabble rabblerabbblerabble

3/21/2008 9:59:51 AM

Quote :

"nobody is saying you're going to shoot up a school because you're suddenly allowed to carry your concealed weapon on campus. We're just saying there is no need for it. Especially if you're the hero type and you end up shooting more innocent by standers and getting yourself shot trying to save the day in a shooting spree. Not to mention the kids getting bullied that may resort to their gun as a means to stand up for themselves. We all know State is full of these types of nerdy kids. See TWW users for examples. "

That's exactly what you've all been saying the entire time. Hell, that's what you're saying in the last 2 sentences of the above statement!

WHY do you say there's no need for it? When IS there a need for it? You said that you're getting your permit. Why? What makes your everyday life so dangerous that you need a permit that doesn't apply to a college campus? It can't be that murders don't happen on campuses. The past few years have shown that to be false and have shown that it's free range for criminals and psychos wishing to do massive damage.

As for shooting innocents, CCW permit holders have to pass a proficiency test to show that this isn't likely before they get the permit. When is the last time you saw a story about a CCW permit holder shooting a bystander? How about the last time you saw a story about a cop shooting a bystander?

Once again, What make a college campus SPECIAL that turns CCW from a good idea across the street to a bad idea on campus?

3/21/2008 10:23:21 AM

Quote :

"Once again, What make a college campus SPECIAL that turns CCW from a good idea across the street to a bad idea on campus?"

people dont want guns at k-12 schools so its easier to ban everywhere than make an exception for college campuses

3/21/2008 12:40:47 PM

Quote :

"people dont want guns at k-12 schools so its easier to ban everywhere than make an exception for college campuses"

Not really. I know a lot of people that want ALL schools open to CCW permit holders. How many times have their been attacks at k-12 schools. If the teachers, principals, or parents have a CCW permit, let them carry. There's nothing about these places that make them inherently safe for people nor inherently dangerous for a ccw permit holder. As for the "exceptions" part, lawbooks are full of exceptions and specifics. It's just another falsehood where people think that children are safe as long as they are at a place defined as "school." Kind of like the Dean of VT stating that he was glad that a proposal to open Virginia colleges to CCW permit holders was "shot down" because the campus would be a safer place. That was about 1-2 weeks before the mass murder last year.

*edit* and the same question applies to the statement above. Let's just go ahead and change it now to "What makes any place currently banned to CCW permit holders different than the place right across the street?"

[Edited on March 21, 2008 at 2:04 PM. Reason : m]

3/21/2008 2:02:32 PM

I can't believe this is still going on...

3/21/2008 2:42:37 PM

i cant believe this is still going on...

3/21/2008 2:52:49 PM

gloveko has been pushing for legislation that would effectively weaken doors, allowing them to be kicked in easier when he is mad at his girlfriend!

3/21/2008 4:17:30 PM

sounds like he needs to go talk to someone

3/21/2008 4:26:34 PM

Quote :

"^^Yes but an out of control situation with a gun is different than an out of control situation without a gun... what happened to old fashioned fist fights? "

Well, I don't know about you, but I'm not too keen on getting into fist fights with people. I'm not too keen on getting into gun fights either, but if I were in a situation where my safety were in question, I'd rather not have to rely on me being stronger, faster and more adept than my opponent and also hope he isn't armed.

And again, what are this situations that you envision that aren't already occurring everywhere else where CCP is legal?

3/21/2008 4:46:32 PM

Quote :

"You said that you're getting your permit."

actually he doesn't understand that there is a distinction between a purchase permit and a carry permit. so asking him any questions that aren't elementary, i.e. is a stop sign red?, confuses him and he'll respond with gibberish, like he's been doing.

3/21/2008 7:58:26 PM

Quote :

"Hi Josh. I'm not worried about CCP holders being threats. I would agree that they are not. I'm worried about the ability of any one seeing a gun on any person at all and knowing that it shouldn't be there. Currently, if I were to see someone on campus with a gun, I know to either tackle them or run. "

Well, concealed properly, you are very unlikely to see it. Again, this sort of thing doesn't happen anywhere else, does it? Why would it happen on a college campus?

Quote :

"people dont want guns at k-12 schools so its easier to ban everywhere than make an exception for college campuses "

I know I'm a little older than most of you in this thread (except for LadyRugger8--she's just as ancient as I am ) , so it's been a while since I've been in k-12th grade, but I don't remember a whole lot of 21 year olds there.

...or do you mean the teachers?

in which case I ask again--what makes a teacher with a CCP who carries perfectly legally and without incident across the street at Wal-Mart or 7-11 go completely nuts and decide to whack a room full of kids upon stepping foot onto school grounds? Even if you want to consider this as a remote possibility, do you think that scenario is more likely than the same teacher lawfully using a legally concealed weapon to stop a crazy-ass student from committing such an act?

[Edited on March 21, 2008 at 8:08 PM. Reason : adfads]

3/21/2008 8:06:32 PM

North Carolina reports 0.2% of their 263,102 holders had their license revoked in the 10 years since they have adopted the law — a lower proportion than the crime rate among North Carolina police officers. Revocation of license is for any criminal conviction, and need not involve an illegal firearm usage. Revocations typically arise from DUI.
----------------------------
this is old but it shows you how many people try to use their emotions as a valid reason in an argument.

it also shows how stupid they make themselves appear by using faulty logic.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A50416-2004Jul14.html

Quote :

""This just shows you the extreme nature of what they're trying to do," said Bob Ricker, head of Virginians for Public Safety. "You don't want to go to Starbucks or Reston Town Center and see somebody with a firearm strapped on," he added, referring to two locations where armed patrons were found. "It's just something that I think is completely unreasonable. We all understand the concept of self-defense. . . . But when you're talking about Fairfax County, you have to look at what is reasonable.""

So it's cool, just not in my back yard (NIMBY).

Quote :

" Van Cleave said the gun owners might have been out celebrating a law that took effect July 1. Virginia statute 15.2-915 now completely prohibits any locality from enacting any regulations on gun ownership, carrying, storage or purchase, except for rules related to the workforce. Alexandria, for example, had an ordinance prohibiting openly carrying guns. It is now invalid, Van Cleave said. "It's like the Fourth of July," Van Cleave said. "A whole new set of freedoms came in. . . . All local gun control is completely and totally gone." Legislators said they passed the bill to eliminate duplicative regulations, particularly in counties such as Fairfax, which imposed its own gun permit process in addition to the federally mandated background check. Openly carrying weapons is "not a good idea," said Kristen Rand of the Violence Policy Center in Washington. "This is the gun lobby's vision of how America should be. Everybody's packing heat and ready to engage in a shootout at the slightest provocation." Ricker said the gun owners "are probably doing their cause more harm than good by raising this issue. It raises an awareness and gives people who are more rational thinkers the opportunity to go to their legislators and make their views known." Van Cleave said most gun owners, particularly defense league members or concealed weapon permit owners, are law-abiding. Anti-gun forces "have come to think guns themselves are evil. You've got to worry about the person, not the gun." "

Why would you want to demonize an inanimate object, when you can do that to a group of law abiding people.
--------------
By definition, bad guys don't obey laws, so they'll surely not obey even the most sternly worded signs. Ergo, any bad guys at or near School (or a similarly posted establishment) have guns. Or knives. Or maybe they've organized into a pack. At any rate, they possess the means -and more importantly, the motivation- to do harm.

Just as important to these bad guys is that you, the law-abiding citizen, will indeed obey the sign. Actually, most of you will roll your eyes at it, saying to yourself or your companions, "Right, like I'm going to need a gun at School!"
...or at Starbucks...or at a Sheetz...or at a daycare center...

And if the unthinkable happens, and someone offers you violence for which you are utterly unprepared, then your only hope is that there is a cop nearby, into whose hands you have completely entrusted your physical safety.

If you are alone at the School (et al), then the consequences fall upon your person alone, and that is certainly your right, to allow another to threaten, kill, or maim you. If you are with someone who might look to you for protection (spouse, child, elder parent), then being unprepared means you have abdicated that responsibility.

There is a third option, however. Between the sheep and the wolf lies the sheepdog. More suited for life amongst the sheep, but equipped more like the wolf, the sheepdog blends into the unarmed crowd at School, sitting in brickyard and enjoying it like the rest, but with a vigilant eye on his surroundings.

This third kind of person is a law-abiding citizen, and also a criminal, because he has chosen to disregard a statute that renders him unable to protect himself and his family. He'll likely never have to present the weapon he carries in violation of the law, but if he does, it will be a decision that will be made because his very life was at stake.

If you have a sheepdog in your midst when the wolf appears, your third option is to hope that he is willing to endure the arrest, imprisonment, and financial ruin that goes along with using a weapon in defense of another.

So sneer at the signs if you like. I genuinely hope you are never a victim of such violence. And I hope that if you are, I'm next to you in line at Lil Dino's. You should hope so too...but don't rely upon it, because as we all know, hope is not a plan.

[Edited on March 22, 2008 at 4:37 PM. Reason : g]

3/22/2008 4:23:08 PM

^You really do have to understand Fairfax County.

3/22/2008 4:36:31 PM

explain.

3/22/2008 4:37:54 PM

Why don't you people conceal a kevlar vest instead? That would satisfy both groups, right?

3/22/2008 4:44:54 PM

oh, and treetwista, go easy with calling me a moron DOOD. I never once said anything about your wiggeredness affecting your opinions on these things!

3/22/2008 4:46:00 PM

Quote :

"That would satisfy both groups, right?"

troll much?

[Edited on March 22, 2008 at 4:48 PM. Reason : eh]

3/22/2008 4:47:33 PM