Quote :

"And is unprofessionally bad-mouthing Putin part of that officer's job? I thought it was to develop positive relations, so maybe he isn't the right person for the job anyway?"

Part of his job is sending frank assessments of world leaders (and other policymakers, organizations, etc.) back to Foggy Bottom. Then they take that information into account when formulating policy.

Developing good relations is best served by accurate information, which in turn is best served by honesty. If a world leader is paranoid and irritable, that's stuff we might need to know when dealing with them, even if that review isn't positive.

Quote :

"We have a say in how our foreign relations are conducted"

Certainly. But foreign policy is decided upon by elected leaders and executed by diplomats. If a diplomat isn't carrying out the government's policy, then he can and should be relieved. But if we don't like the policy we should elect different representatives. What we don't have a say in -- or, if we do have a say, we shouldn't necessarily use it -- is in terms of the honest opinions sent back from FSO's and other agents. If we start telling these guys to lie in order to be nice, we've already lost.

Quote :

"The entire point of increasing accountability is to save human lives by making it clear that war crimes can't go hidden and unpunished. "

I get that. I'll admit I'm on the fence about leaking possible war crimes, because there's a lot of factors to take into account. Releasing a report of soldier X committing an atrocity might keep soldier Y from doing the same thing later on, and it might also cause person Z to get blown up in an attack that never would have happened without the initial report.

But most of the other leaks aren't really gray areas for me. Information about our procedures for intelligence gathering (when those procedures aren't arguably war crimes, anyway) does not serve the interests of anyone but our enemies. Information about what goes on at the negotiating table will not create smoother discussions by becoming public. (To clarify -- the final outcome of negotiations should be public for all to see, of course, but it's like sausage...great and all, but best not to see it being made)

Quote :

"And I'm a friend of McDanger's that he let use this account, believe it or not. You did note that we have different styles."

I'm not going to call you a liar, I was just confused. Back in the good old days, before his online persona went insane, I recall him creating that account.

11/30/2010 3:36:12 PM

Ian I actually think these things, you know.

If you think my "online persona" has gone insane then you have to believe I have gone insane. Do you really think that?

11/30/2010 3:42:00 PM

It's not the things you believe. Plenty of people on here believe crazier shit.

How you relate those beliefs to the online audience...I give it another week before you come on here and just type BARK BARK BARK BARK growlllllll grrrrrr BARK BARK.

11/30/2010 3:46:58 PM

I could be calmer I guess, but what's the fun in that? At what point does a sane person cease being calm anyway?

I'm just less apathetic than you. A lot less. It doesn't mean I'm some frothing maniac. It moreso means that other people really, REALLY don't give a shit.

11/30/2010 3:49:20 PM

Eh, I ain't a doctor. You were never exactly calm, but to me you seem have been a damn sight more worked up in the past few months than you used to be, and I commented on it.

And apathetic...maybe. More importantly, I'm playing for the other team. You're displeased with the U.S. government, and I'm trying to work for it.

11/30/2010 3:56:05 PM

Quote :

"To people upset about wikileaks...at what point would the leaks be justified?"

While I didn't necessarily agree with it, I was okay with the WikiLeaks for the Iraq and Afghanistan logs: you could make a case that the information from those releases are being used to expose what they honestly thought were war crimes.

My personal problem with the current "Cablegate" is that nothing I've seen so far reveals any sort of wrongdoing or illegal activity. This release feels more like Assange is simply pissed off at the US and is trying to both indiscriminately disrupt all US diplomatic efforts whether or not they are noble or ignoble and publicly humiliate the State Department (and not the CIA or DoD which are all the organizations allegedly committing American evils). This isn't a targeted release to stop a particular wrong doing but instead an attempt to throw a defiant middle finger at the US.

The damage you're going to see is not going to be toward illicit activities such as all the alleged war crimes that probably don't use diplomatic channels to begin with but diplomatic activities like shutting down Guantanamo (because it may harm efforts to settle innocent detainees) or resolving standing crises like Iran or Middle East peace (because other parties will hesitate to have any sort of honest dialogue with the US anymore). Outside that one German cable that is morally questionable and the Yemen bombing that came out into the open years ago, nothing else I've seen is anything close towards a war crime or atrocity. I now understand why so many of his staff were so angry and upset a few months back: unlike previous leaks, this is neither particularly revealing of some new wrongdoing and feels more like a general attempt to sabotage the US diplomatic machine.

11/30/2010 4:04:06 PM

Quote :

"You're displeased with the U.S. government, and I'm trying to work for it."

I doubt you want to preserve the state of things, though.

11/30/2010 4:08:02 PM

Wait, who is the kid of a billionaire?

11/30/2010 5:25:18 PM

Quote :

"You're corrupt as hell. 100% transparency is needed. Release all of your private e-mails. Any private photos or videos? Yeah, we'll be needing those as well. The hypocrisy of those who champion Assange is that they are the same people who scream bloody murder about privacy rights,...."

Wow, you couldn't be more stupid. We're talking about governments, banks, etc., not people's homemade pornos.
(you fucking idiot)

Privacy rights are held by [flesh and blood] individuals. That's it.
The government is 100% accountable to us.
The government does not have rights.
It certainly does not have a right to privacy.

Quote :

"I like how what they're up to isn't placing them in danger, it's these leaks. What's it the government likes to say all the time? If you're not doing anything wrong, you shouldn't worry about transparency?"

Quote :

"I like how what they're up to isn't placing them in danger, it's these leaks. What's it the government likes to say all the time? If you're not doing anything wrong, you shouldn't worry about transparency?"

Quote :

"I like how what they're up to isn't placing them in danger, it's these leaks. What's it the government likes to say all the time? If you're not doing anything wrong, you shouldn't worry about transparency?"

[Edited on November 30, 2010 at 5:39 PM. Reason : ]

11/30/2010 5:38:24 PM

I think that if you don't acknowledge the necessity of state/military secrets, there is nothing more to discuss, other than maybe how much of a fucking moron you are.

[Edited on November 30, 2010 at 6:01 PM. Reason : ]

11/30/2010 5:59:21 PM

jesus christ i think my head exploded trying to read this entire thread
wow at some of you

11/30/2010 6:05:06 PM

^

^^
Well duh, a few things should be secret, for a period of time, for security purposes. (Then made public later, as we do...)
But too much is confidential. Way, way too much.

Organizations like Wikileaks are fucking blessings.

11/30/2010 6:30:40 PM

blessings to terrorist organizations and other enemies of the United States

11/30/2010 6:35:57 PM

Moscow's Bid to Blow Up WikiLeaks

Quote :

"National-security officials say that the National Security Agency, the U.S. government’s eavesdropping agency, has already picked up tell-tale electronic evidence that WikiLeaks is under close surveillance by the Russian FSB, that country’s domestic spy network, out of fear in Moscow that WikiLeaks is prepared to release damaging personal information about Kremlin leaders. “We may not have been able to stop WikiLeaks so far, and it’s been frustrating,” a U.S. law-enforcement official tells The Daily Beast. “The Russians play by different rules.” He said that if WikiLeaks and its founder, Julian Assange, follow through on threats to post highly embarrassing information about the Russian government and what is assumed to be massive corruption among its leaders, “the Russians will be ruthless in stopping WikiLeaks.”"

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-11-30/moscows-bid-to-blow-up-wikileaks-russians-play-by-different-rules/


Interpol issues warrant for Assange

Quote :

"Interpol has issued an international warrant at the request of a Swedish court for the arrest of WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange in connection with alleged sex crimes. "

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2010/11/30/wikileaks-founder-assange-suspected-of-sex-crimes/?hpt=T2

good luck, rapist

11/30/2010 7:30:42 PM

^
Regardless of your views on Wikileaks...
...surely you can see how the rape charge could be false -- only being used to make it easier to catch him.

11/30/2010 7:50:17 PM

i don't like this douchebag at all, but even I question the veracity of the sex crime claims

11/30/2010 7:54:58 PM

well yeah, who wouldn't question those claims?

whatever, even if they're false, i like it when bad things happen to bad people.

11/30/2010 8:25:54 PM

I think the revelation that the next shoe to drop is going to be a big bank is just a little too coincidental to the sudden outrage and calls for labeling this guy a terrorist and the DDoSing of their site.

The very fact that wealthy powerful people would throw their money around to suppress truth is precisely why it needs to come out.

For the militarily here, how has the cause been damaged so far? How many deaths have resulted from the first release?

11/30/2010 9:58:51 PM

Quote :

"I doubt you want to preserve the state of things, though."

No, but who does? In a democratic form of government you always deal with compromises, and compromises always leave everybody wanting something slightly different. It's a matter of degrees -- you want to change a great deal more than I do. And even where I want change there is some disconnect. For example, I think our foreign policy could use some major overhaul, but I think that many of the practices exposed recently are perfectly acceptable tools of pursuing any foreign policy.

Quote :

"Well duh, a few things should be secret, for a period of time, for security purposes. (Then made public later, as we do...) But too much is confidential. Way, way too much."

Just out of curiosity, what have you found in the latest round of leaks that should not have been kept confidential?

I agree that all things should see the light of day -- in time. At the end of the day it's mostly a matter of how long that time is. I, for one, would rather wait until the lives of informants, at least some of whom are in pursuit of noble goals, are no longer at risk.

Quote :

"...surely you can see how the rape charge could be false"

It could be, but it is worth pointing out that the organization will probably continue to exist whether or not its founder is in prison for an unrelated crime. If anybody is trying to use this tactic to stop the leaks, they're being even stupider than intelligence agencies usually are. Also, I have a hard time believing that Sweden of all countries would be complicit in it.

I'm just not sure I see what the benefit of painting him as a rapist does. If the documents are released and can't credibly be denied as true, what have you accomplished? As far as I'm concerned, him being an (alleged) rapist is a matter entirely separate from his other activities.

Quote :

"For the militarily here, how has the cause been damaged so far? How many deaths have resulted from the first release?"

Admittedly I'm not military, but there are some reasonable challenges to these questions. How often does a terrorist/insurgent/what have you offer a specific, one-off reason for their action? And, when a reason is offered by an organization, how are we to know that the individuals carrying out an operation share those same motives?

It's entirely possible that nobody has died as a result of the first round of leaks. But it is entirely impossible that it is decreasing violence against the U.S. and its allies.

12/1/2010 1:51:38 AM

God damn, this poor son-of-a-bitch is gonna get clipped before the year is over. He's gotta be making enemies of people he doesn't even know exist by now, and I doubt they're all going to play nice. Best of luck to him, though

12/1/2010 6:55:54 AM

Quote :

" But it is entirely impossible that it is decreasing violence against the U.S. and its allies"

We don't know one way or the other. Is it not possible (far fetched as it may be) that our enemies, upon reading these leaks are left thinking "Yeah, the US and it's allies is doing some shit we thought they were...but not to the level we thought they were..."

12/1/2010 7:18:33 AM

Quote :

"I think that if you don't acknowledge the necessity of state/military secrets, there is nothing more to discuss, other than maybe how much of a fucking moron you are."

You're just pissed that he's leaking atrocities, in many cases. (Not talking about cable gate obviously.)

It's not like he's leaking current troop movements, so far as I can tell. The war logs let you find civilian casualties (and revenge-slaying of civilians), friendly-fire incidents, etc. I can see why somebody like you would be pissed when evidence of civilian casualties gets leaked.

Quote :

"blessings to terrorist organizations and other enemies of the United States"

Nope actually fuck you and the other authoritarians -- the worst enemies of the US there is. The best part is how you imagine yourselves as patriots. roflmao

Quote :

"whatever, even if they're false, i like it when bad things happen to bad people."

You must love it when evidence of war crimes and civilian slaughter is leaked then, right? Right?

[Edited on December 1, 2010 at 8:24 AM. Reason : .]

12/1/2010 8:22:00 AM

Quote :

"Not talking about cable gate obviously"

What happened to the fervor on page 5? Aren't these cables are rife with "illegitimate practices"; SECRECY SHOULD BE AFFORDED WITH LEGITIMACY

Quote :

"Is it not possible (far fetched as it may be) that our enemies, upon reading these leaks are left thinking "Yeah, the US and it's allies is doing some shit we thought they were...but not to the level we thought they were...""

LOL!



That was a joke...right?

12/1/2010 9:18:26 AM

Quote :

"All warfare is based on deception. Hence, when able to attack, we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must seem inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make him believe we are near. Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him."

- Sun Tzu

12/1/2010 10:16:46 AM

Quote :

"Just out of curiosity, what have you found in the latest round of leaks that should not have been kept confidential?"

Well, for one, it was good for the public to know that China is supporting the Iran and N. Korea nuclear programs with parts and equipment before we go haphazardly bumbling in there to stop them like we were on the verge of during the last administration.

12/1/2010 10:19:33 AM

I can't wait to see what they release on the banks. People are saying that is wrong but not if it exposes crimes that landed us in the economic shitter. Of course there is no real accountability for wall street anyway.

12/1/2010 11:31:44 AM

The banks have full and unlimited support from the fed. Nothing wikileaks has is going to do any damage

12/1/2010 12:02:15 PM

Quote :

"All warfare is based on deception. Hence, when able to attack, we must seem unable; when using our forces, we must seem inactive; when we are near, we must make the enemy believe we are far away; when far away, we must make him believe we are near. Hold out baits to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and crush him."

Haha you're quoting Sun Tzu

He's talking about deceiving the enemy, not the populace that supports the fucking war

12/1/2010 1:23:45 PM

that was in response to the necessity of state/military secrets.

duh.

12/1/2010 1:56:03 PM

Secrecy should be afforded with legitimacy.

12/1/2010 2:06:25 PM

Quote :

"Well, for one, it was good for the public to know that China is supporting the Iran and N. Korea nuclear programs with parts and equipment"

Anyone who didn't already think this is a moron. He might as well have leaked a document in which it is mentioned that Indian people like curry.

Quote :

"You're just pissed that he's leaking atrocities, in many cases."

I wonder if maybe discussion would be better served by keeping atrocities in a separate category. Specific acts of wrongdoing are one thing are one thing. The complete inner workings of sensitive parts of government function are another.

Quote :

"It's not like he's leaking current troop movements, so far as I can tell."

This is true, though he's given me every reason to think that the only reason he hasn't leaked current troop movements is that he doesn't have access to that information.

12/1/2010 2:19:41 PM

It's an evil war, leaking troop movements is a good way to stop it.

Anywhoo, Bank of America stocks down on news of leak about their corruption.



[Edited on December 1, 2010 at 3:05 PM. Reason : .]

12/1/2010 3:03:32 PM

awesome halloween costumes!

12/1/2010 3:07:04 PM

Quote :

"Nope actually fuck you and the other authoritarians -- the worst enemies of the US there is."

So you're saying that the Americans that you perceive to be authoritarians, are worse enemies of the US than Al Quada, North Korea, Iran, etc?

k

12/1/2010 6:21:44 PM

Manning is a retard.
Assange is a drama queen/attnwhore.

12/1/2010 6:27:29 PM

I can fucking agree with ^

12/1/2010 6:28:08 PM

thats basically what it boils down to.

I am all for exposing corruption and crime within the government and our military. these clowns get their hands on any document that can find and throw it against the wall to see what sticks

12/1/2010 7:21:32 PM

Quote :

"You're just pissed that he's leaking atrocities, in many cases."

Not at all.

1. I don't really have a problem with cover-ups of atrocities being blown.

2. I haven't followed all of the leaked stuff in great detail, but from what I've read, there hasn't really been any big stuff released--it's been more of a "Oh? That's it? The U.S. is pretty damned decent, then."

Quote :

"It's not like he's leaking current troop movements, so far as I can tell. The war logs let you find civilian casualties (and revenge-slaying of civilians), friendly-fire incidents, etc. I can see why somebody like you would be pissed when evidence of civilian casualties gets leaked."

There's a shitload more stuff that's classified than troop movements. Most of it is pretty mundane, and each piece often holds very little value on its own, but taken altogether, valuable information can be pieced together (and you can bet that Al Qaeda as well as any country with an intelligence service are pouring through every page of this in minute detail with human and probably in many cases, computer analysis)

Quote :

"You must love it when evidence of war crimes and civilian slaughter is leaked then, right? Right?"

Like I said, if there are war crimes that are being swept under the run, I'm all for those being dealt with.

Quote :

"He's talking about deceiving the enemy, not the populace that supports the fucking war"

Dude, how can you not grasp that you can't be transparent to your own people and still deceive (and withhold information from) the enemy?

12/1/2010 7:22:22 PM

Quote :

"Dude, how can you not grasp that you can't be transparent to your own people and still deceive (and withhold information from) the enemy?"

Dude, how can you not grasp that deceiving the public and keeping secrets are two different things?
Dude, how can you not grasp that the government and military are completely out of control and rife with corruption?
Dude, how can you not grasp that transparency is required for these rogue organizations to become accountable to the people again?

We can restore secrecy once we've restored legitimacy. Your job and your organization are at the moment illegitimate and should be defunded immediately. That's right, your toys should be dismantled and you should be sent the fuck home. Fuck how you feel about it.

Quote :

"Like I said, if there are war crimes that are being swept under the run, I'm all for those being dealt with."

Then you should be cheering these leaks and demanding some justice.

Quote :

" 1. I don't really have a problem with cover-ups of atrocities being blown. 2. I haven't followed all of the leaked stuff in great detail, but from what I've read, there hasn't really been any big stuff released--it's been more of a "Oh? That's it? The U.S. is pretty damned decent, then.""

Lol so basically you have no idea what's in the leaked documents and are talking out of your ass. If I were rich I'd want bodies like you to throw for my benefit, alright.

Quote :

"So you're saying that the Americans that you perceive to be authoritarians, are worse enemies of the US than Al Quada, North Korea, Iran, etc?"

Yes because you constitute a much more credible threat to a genuinely American way of life than any of these organizations. Al Qaeda is mostly a threat at this point because they can drum you retards into throwing away core American values. Whenever they want.

You are Al Qaeda's puppet.

12/1/2010 7:39:31 PM

I'd love to see some kind of evidence that the MILITARY is corrupt. that's laughable. keep wetting the bed, dude, it's hilarious to watch.

12/1/2010 7:59:39 PM

A military that only serves the interests of a tiny sliver of the population is corrupt, I'd say.

It's fun to watch all of you conservatives betray the country you claim to love.

12/1/2010 8:06:49 PM

if that's all you can come up with, then I think we can ALL admit that you are talking out of your ass.

12/1/2010 8:13:05 PM

Believe what ever you want you dumb fucking chimp, it's clear you already plan on it.

How does it feel to be the mind slave of people who are actively subverting the interests of the common American? Probably dull and fuzzy

12/1/2010 8:14:26 PM

how does it feel to spew nonsense without any evidence for it? You could be a Southern Baptist preacher!

12/1/2010 8:19:59 PM

Quote :

"Al Qaeda is mostly a threat at this point because they can drum you retards into throwing away core American values. Whenever they want. You are Al Qaeda's puppet."

I am most certainly not a puppet, nor do I get drummed into throwing away core American values.

I disagree with the implication that Al Qaeda is not a significant threat, but I do agree that we, as a country, have "let the terrorists win" in some regards by compromising liberties and principles that we shouldn't have. Furthermore, I believe that a significant goal of Osama bin Laden was to provoke us into overplaying our hand in order to galvanize the Islamic world (he certainly succeeded at the former; not so much at the latter).

12/1/2010 8:21:15 PM

It's useless to talk about evidence with the utterly uninformed. I doubt you even understand what "evidence" means. ^^

Buzz along shitbird, I'm not wasting my time with aaron fucking burro, the village idiot of THE SOAP BOX. Lmao Jesus Christ.

[Edited on December 1, 2010 at 8:22 PM. Reason : .]

12/1/2010 8:21:33 PM

HA HA HA!!! I'M GONNA MAKE UNFOUNDED CLAIMS AND NOT SUPPORT THEM AND CALL EVERY ONE ELSE MORONS!!! HA HA HA!!!

12/1/2010 8:23:09 PM

Quote :

"We can restore secrecy once we've restored legitimacy."

In what way do you suppose the State Department - or the Defense Department, for that matter - is illegitimate?

[Edited on December 2, 2010 at 9:09 AM. Reason : ]

12/2/2010 9:09:41 AM

Quote :

"There's a shitload more stuff that's classified than troop movements. Most of it is pretty mundane, and each piece often holds very little value on its own, but taken altogether, valuable information can be pieced together (and you can bet that Al Qaeda as well as any country with an intelligence service are pouring through every page of this in minute detail with human and probably in many cases, computer analysis)"

What I really don't understand is why everyone is of the opinion that this information is novel to Al Qaeda. Maybe this was addressed earlier I didn't feel like going through the pages of idiotic rants. If this group has gotten access to this information is it so unreasonable to think that other groups were already accessing it?
I just hope the Bank stuff is released before someone caps this dude. I am more interested in the financial corruption of the government getting exposed.

12/2/2010 11:22:29 AM

Quote :

"In what way do you suppose the State Department - or the Defense Department, for that matter - is illegitimate?"

Um, the Department of Defense's history of incompetency and deception is not exactly a secret.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Department_of_Defense#Civilian_control

Quote :

"On February 26, 2002, the Office of the Inspector General, U.S. Department of Defense has reported that DoD has not and will not account for $1.1 trillion of "unsupported accounting entries""

Quote :

"On April 20, 2008, The New York Times published an exposé accusing the U.S. Department of Defense of running a propaganda "message machine" to spread the administration's talking points on Iraq by briefing retired military commanders for network television and cable television appearances, where they were presented as independent analysts."

http://thinkprogress.org/2009/05/17/rumsfeld-bible-versus

Quote :

" a lengthy article on Donald Rumsfeld’s rocky tenure as Defense Secretary, GQ published never-before-seen cover sheets from top-secret intelligence briefings produced by Rumsfeld’s Pentagon. Starting in the days surrounding the U.S. invasion of Iraq, the cover sheets featured inspirational Bible verses printed over military images, “and were delivered by Rumsfeld himself to the White House” to the president, “who referred to America’s war on terror as a ‘crusade,’” GQ writes."

12/2/2010 12:13:50 PM