^ well, i don't really know that a 5-second animation actually "fixes" the problem of it not being intuitive

a left-facing "back" arrow is pretty good idea...kind of new and untested, though, so i don't know if folks will really know what to do with it

windows 8 is going to suck donkey balls...windows 9 will be windows 7 SE

8/3/2012 1:18:09 PM

Quote :

"windows 8 is going to suck donkey balls...windows 9 will be windows 7 SE"

Well obviously, Windows 8 will be outstanding for tablets and touchscreens. But it remains to be seen how it fares as a desktop UI.

8/3/2012 3:10:12 PM

I'm going to judge this product before using it.

8/3/2012 3:14:00 PM

Quote :

"I'm going to judge this product before using it after playing around with it for a while on a desktop with a keyboard and mouse and finding it less than intuitive."

qft

8/3/2012 7:00:55 PM

Quote :

"^just make yourself look like an idiot by posting that The problem was fixed a while ago by adding a 5 second animation to first login."

If you need a video/animation to show you how to do something, then it is NOT intuitive...

8/3/2012 7:34:37 PM

quag has the retail version of Windows 8. Bitchin.

8/3/2012 8:02:37 PM

oh, look, Ernie thinks he's being cute

i've used what everyone else has used...unless they're planning on making significant changes (and they might come to their senses and do it), i think it sucks

*shrug*

8/3/2012 9:00:17 PM

Merbig: its not intuitive because it's brand fucking new UI pattern you yard. Mice weren't intuitive when they first came out either, neither were touch screens or any other interaction pattern when it's first introduced.

What matters more is that it's easily LEARNED.

^it hasn't change dramatically or honestly at all in terms of keyboard/mouse optimization that I have seen. Quag ain't far off the mark. I can say I've gotten used to it, and just avoid the metro start screen whenever possible. Its not really a big disaster, and the other improvements in 8 are worth the clunky start screen to me.

8/4/2012 3:13:39 AM

Quote :

"the other improvements in 8 are worth the clunky start screen"

That's what I'm after. What are the other improvements in 8 that make putting up with metro for a desktop PC worth it?

8/4/2012 7:01:39 AM

^^ I can see why MS has problems designing intuitive UIs when they have tards like you who can't grasp what intuitive means...

Apple has thousands of users walk into their stores, having never used one of their products, pick it up and begin using it with ease. From Mac OS X to iOS. There's a reason why they do so well in the consumer market. Basic functionality requires nothing to figure out. The same can't be same about Windows 8.

I'm a little ashamed to admit this, but it took me like 10 minutes to figure out how to open a listing of all my programs (right click on the start screen). There is no indication that I should perform this action to get to this screen.

If it takes a user more than 30 seconds to figure out how to perform something basic, it is neither easy to learn nor natural to use.

And are you out of your fucking mind to say that mice weren't intuitive? If this were true, how was it that when I was 6, and I could barely read, was I able to figure out, without my father or anyone showing me, how to use Windows and a mouse? Why do you think they became popular? They were vastly easier to use and made it simple for anyone to use a computer without needing to know a string of commands to open up a program? Why do you think Apple took off in popularity when they introduced Lisa, and later the Mac? The GUI and mouse made it easy enough for anyone to figure out. Text based UIs were not and still aren't intuitive.

And how the fuck are touch screens not intuitive? Once when someone is told that you touch the screen to use it, they figure it out in a heartbeat. I've seen people who have never used a computer fill out applications with them. To say they're not intuitive is just idiotic.

But I guess you'll say anything and make up anything to defend MS against this abortion of an OS.

^ Not much. The new task manager is cool, but if my programs don't crash and I have no problems with the OS, I should really never have to see it.

Explorer has a ribbon UI, which I personally like, but to me, it's not worth the upgrade.

It does start up faster and seems a bit snappier on my year old netbook.

Though on more modern and better hardware, those gains would be unnoticeable for the most part, and given how often I restart my commonly used laptop (almost never), saving a few extra seconds on the rare occasion that I do restart it doesn't seem worth it to me.

[Edited on August 4, 2012 at 2:06 PM. Reason : .]

8/4/2012 2:02:31 PM

Quote :

"Apple has thousands of users walk into their stores, having never used one of their products, pick it up and begin using it with ease. From Mac OS X to iOS. There's a reason why they do so well in the consumer market. Basic functionality requires nothing to figure out."

Oh come on, you're greatly exaggerating things here. Have you ever seen all those people that go into the Apple store to learn how to use their Mac? Training exists because user interfaces and computers require it. Same as learning how to walk, ride a bike, drive a car, etc. Sure, you can jump in and start using it, but there are things you won't know how to do without someone teaching you, or you exploring on your own.

It's a computer, don't take the interface personal, and that video of the old man is still a retarded example since that is not how most people learn. They ask questions, which is what he was trying to do.

8/4/2012 3:17:48 PM

merbig bout to get pwned as fuck here.

Quote :

"Apple has thousands of users walk into their stores, having never used one of their products, pick it up and begin using it with ease. From Mac OS X to iOS. There's a reason why they do so well in the consumer market. Basic functionality requires nothing to figure out. The same can't be same about Windows 8."

Walk into any Apple store during the day on a weekend. You will see the training section (the back 1/3 of EVERY STORE) fucking slammed full of people who are being taught how to do all that "intuitive" stuff for hours on end. If you hand any Apple product to a non-tech person over 30, it's not going to be intuitive.

Quote :

"m a little ashamed to admit this, but it took me like 10 minutes to figure out how to open a listing of all my programs (right click on the start screen). There is no indication that I should perform this action to get to this screen. If it takes a user more than 30 seconds to figure out how to perform something basic, it is neither easy to learn nor natural to use."

Now that you've done it once though, you'll remember it. Which means it WAS easy to learn. You just proved my point. The difference between 10 minutes and 30 seconds is not difficult to solve (a first run notification "right click to use the app bar" would have worked).

Quote :

"And are you out of your fucking mind to say that mice weren't intuitive? If this were true, how was it that when I was 6, and I could barely read, was I able to figure out, without my father or anyone showing me, how to use Windows and a mouse? Why do you think they became popular? They were vastly easier to use and made it simple for anyone to use a computer without needing to know a string of commands to open up a program? Why do you think Apple took off in popularity when they introduced Lisa, and later the Mac? The GUI and mouse made it easy enough for anyone to figure out. Text based UIs were not and still aren't intuitive."

Either you are too young to even remember this era, or have just forgotten about it.

The Lisa was a complete failure commercially, the Macintosh 128k/512k/Plus were outsold by PC's more than 10 to 1. The first Apple product to "take off in popularity" was the 3rd Generation iPod. Prior to that, the Apple II was the only Apple product to break 10% market share.

It took 14 years for the mouse to become ubiquitous in the computer industry (1982 first introduced by Apple, Microsoft and Logitech to 1995 with Windows 95 that finally buried DOS).

And it was intuitive for you because you were 6. You had no preconceived notions about how a computer was supposed to work. Put any 6 year old in front of iOS or Windows 8 or any other modern GUI interface and they will figure it out in a matter of minutes.

Quote :

" And how the fuck are touch screens not intuitive? Once when someone is told that you touch the screen to use it, they figure it out in a heartbeat. I've seen people who have never used a computer fill out applications with them. To say they're not intuitive is just idiotic. "

Ever tried a pre-iPhone touchscreen phone? Ever tried a shitty resistive touch display? Ever used a camera with a touchscreen display? Or a touchscreen universal remote? Or a mid 2000's in-dash car receiver? Hell, how about an original Android device?

There are 1000 horrifically unintuitive touchscreen devices for every 1 decent one.

[Edited on August 6, 2012 at 7:31 PM. Reason : E]

8/6/2012 7:30:50 PM

So I was totally right about Gabe Newell disliking Windows 8 because of competition, just didn't know how right I was

http://www.theverge.com/gaming/2012/8/8/3228247/valve-to-sell-non-gaming-software-on-steam-starting-september-5th

8/8/2012 7:56:39 PM

Windows 8 is fucking hideous.

Ugliest OS since OS/2

8/27/2012 6:36:01 PM

I too will be sticking with 7 for quite a while. Pretty much my main machines will be win7 and everything else will be linux.

8/28/2012 10:06:30 AM

I really like Metro, but it feels like it was just taped onto Windows with no consideration of how the two should work together or interact. Its weird that if you open Explorer from Start, it's Metro Explorer, but if you open it from the desktop, it's regular Explorer. I also found simple tasks (finding the Start menu, closing metro apps, shutting down the computer) were almost impossible to figure out. I'm all for gestures, but there needs to be some other way of doing things if the gesture (or whatever you call it when you have to move the cursor to a blank spot on the screen to bring up a menu) isn't self-explanatory, discoverable, or apparent in any way.

I assume the real version of 8 will come with a pamphlet or video on where to find things, but not everybody's going to read or have access to that (nor would I expect users to read instructions to do such basic operations). Metro's pretty, but it seems to have some serious usability issues.

Just my reflections after messing around with 8 for about a week.

8/28/2012 10:35:35 AM

no, sorry...if you don't like it, it's a user problem

it's impossible that microsoft made (is making) a mistake

8/28/2012 3:21:44 PM

^^ The thing that pisses me off the most is closing Metro apps. If I just leave them open they muddy up the alt-tab experience. Dragging top to bottom on a 30" monitor is a fucking chore.

THANK GOD Alt-F4 still works to close Metro Apps.

The first thing I did when installing RTM was to change every single file associate away from metro apps to the classic equivalents. Once I killed off all the metro apps, I've been pretty happy with the desktop experience

Also, protip I found from a blog post:

Right click on the bottom left corner and you get a jump list of all the system-level stuff you'd want to do (cmd prompt, control panel, et al): http://www.wingadgetnews.com/windows-8-mouse-tip-click-bottom-left-hand-corner/

There's a way to add/customize this menu, but I havent figured that out yet

8/28/2012 5:23:14 PM

Cool, good to know.

8/29/2012 2:32:48 AM

Avast Anti-Virus could not seem to locate the virus that took over my computer, even via manual search, despite that the virus was first identified in 2010 and all definitions being up to date.

AVG was able to clean the virus but must have gotten some good files in the process because I intermittently get blue screen of death and reboot now. Since my stuff is already backed up due to the pending OS reinstall I am downloading this to try.

9/29/2012 2:38:39 PM

just got a muthafuckin BizSpark account! Windows 8 Pro, here I come!

10/5/2012 11:12:26 PM

^ SO much better than the previews available

10/7/2012 11:49:24 AM

Don't know if this is the right place, but I hate Outlook 2013

10/7/2012 11:58:49 AM

no it's definitely the right place, the preview sucks - hopefully the release gets better

10/7/2012 1:16:36 PM

On the old Outlook you saw upcoming tasks and appointments with your mail screen, now you have to click into the sections

Also, it's sooooo bright

10/7/2012 1:45:37 PM

https://www.windowsupgradeoffer.com

Just got registered with a refurb PC off ebay that I bought last week, not sure what it looks for, but supposedly you have to place the order from the same PC when the time comes.

10/9/2012 10:33:35 PM

ThatGoodLock, I don't think BizSpark allows you to get Win8 for free (just the Windows Server distributions); if it does, please tell me how

10/10/2012 7:57:04 AM

It does

10/10/2012 8:27:38 AM

^^^ for $15, i'd be willing to pay for windows 8 pro

Quote :

"Note: This program collects some information about a user’s machine at browser-level without identifying a user as an individual for program participation validation purposes."

i AM curious as to how they can figure out if your computer qualifies (within reason), especially if i use firefox or something without activex controls...but maybe they require that you use IE later on

i bought my dell laptop a bit less than a year ago, and i would assume that it doesn't qualify...but they still make the model (14z) without any significant changes and since they don't ask for the serial/service tag, so i'm not sure how they can tell that i didn't buy it yesterday

then again, maybe they just want to check certain hardware capabilities...i'm not really familiar with activex and what information it can pull

10/10/2012 8:41:43 AM

wait sry, I was confusing BizSpark with DreamSpark

10/10/2012 8:49:34 AM

Sorry, I won't/can't afford to give away licenses. I've already used up all my Office allotments as I have 3 machines at home and I want to save some for emergencies if I ever need a new computer

10/10/2012 2:05:00 PM

^^^ They did not request any documentation, the website will not work from certain browsers, but I did it through Chrome and it confirmed I am approved.

10/10/2012 2:28:05 PM

Quote :

"Ugliest OS since OS/2"

Don't insult OS/2 like that. OS/2 had multitasking.

10/11/2012 2:32:26 AM

Quote :

"The problem was fixed a while ago by adding a 5 second animation to first login."

say what? a 5-second animation that no one watches and that will soon be lost the moment you first log in will fix the problem with it not being intuitive whatsoever? get out of here with that bullshit.

Quote :

"The first thing I did when installing RTM was to change every single file associate away from metro apps to the classic equivalents. Once I killed off all the metro apps, I've been pretty happy with the desktop experience"

So, once you made it not use Metro at all, you were pretty happy with Metro. o_O

10/14/2012 5:51:24 PM

I'll take some confusion and parts that work poorly in exchange for the awesome form factors it allows. Convertible devices, tablets, touchscreen ultra books, etc..l yes please!

10/14/2012 7:36:15 PM

^^Everyone watches it. You literally can't install Win8 without watching it (unless you know it's coming and purposefully turn away). And yes, it works.

And yes, I don't like using Modern apps that have a direct "classic" experience already preinstalled on Windows. There are, so far, only a couple of Modern apps that I actually find useful on my desktop. Until I have a chance to try Win8 on a true tablet, I will hold judgement on that form factor.

10/14/2012 8:18:16 PM

Netflix app is out! Yessssssssssss!

10/16/2012 9:02:03 AM

i still cant believe microsoft is going to release this.

10/16/2012 11:06:44 AM

It's fantastic on a tablet or touchscreen laptop, I'm loving it so far. There are plenty of things I dislike, but its leaps and bounds better than anything else for this form factor.

10/16/2012 11:09:12 AM

I thought the RTM version was fine on my desktop (3 monitors, no touching!). I used it for maybe a week. I was impressed with how little it changed my workflow. I never had to look at the start screen unless I was starting something, and even then it's the same as my win7 workflow (win key+type what you want). I stopped using it because google chrome started fucking up, but I assume most of those applications will be stable when it actually hits store shelves.

[Edited on October 16, 2012 at 11:46 AM. Reason : .]

10/16/2012 11:46:11 AM

^ I had some recent issue with chrome as well, but it aint Win8, its just chrome being shitty. And I agree with you. There are enough enhancements to the "desktop" experience that more than outweigh the niggles of using the new start screen every couple of days.

10/16/2012 1:47:25 PM

lol no. i use the start menu in win7 as a launcher for pretty much everything. command prompts, file shares, programs, everything. and now not only does that stuff get crammed into the awful metro shitpile, but its separated by type so i have to move my hands off the keyboard to switch to the settings ection or the file section or whatever. its total crap. theres no fucking reason for it either since 99.9999999999999999999999% of my time is spent on the desktop. i dont know how you can justify such a massive fuck you to usage.

i mean you're argument is that customers will not mind the fucked up experience cause its not really that bad. its just annoying for no reason, but they'll be ok with it. it completely destroys their existing workflows, but thats fine because it doesnt offer them anything in return.

thats litterally the proposition here. its garbage.

10/16/2012 4:15:05 PM

how do i ctrl+alt+del on a tablet

10/16/2012 4:16:45 PM

can you do a fresh install with the Win8 pro upgrade

10/16/2012 4:16:50 PM

^^^ I agree with you dude. Not sitting here trying to come up with excuses or rationalizations.

Just pointing out that, as a result of the new start screen, I have effectively stopped using the start screen. And it has not "completely destroyed my existing workflows" in any way, shape or form.

The 10-12 apps I use most (which cover 99% of MY usage at work) are all pinned to the taskbar. I only go to the start screen to bring up the Music app, or to do file/utility searches every once in a while. The desktop taskbar has effectively replaced my need for the start screen, and has done a pretty darn good job of it. Yes, this exists in Win7, but I guess it took the forcing function of the new start screen to make me start really using it.

10/16/2012 4:24:58 PM

Windows 7 taskbar already killed my usage of the start menu.

I think the only thing I have used the start menu for recently was to open the calculator and to open a recently closed file.

10/16/2012 4:33:34 PM

Quote :

"how do i ctrl+alt+del on a tablet"

Windows key + Power button

Quote :

"can you do a fresh install with the Win8 pro upgrade"

Yes.

10/16/2012 4:38:39 PM

im just so mad because this could have been a good incremental update to windows 7 with a separate surface/metro os for tablets but they had to cram it all together and its so bad.

a $40 upgrade that did windows 7 -> 7.5 would sell gangbusters and allow them to distribute a wpf windows store, but nope. they went all the way to crazy town and its gonna be doa.

10/16/2012 4:49:24 PM

You're wrong

10/16/2012 5:12:27 PM

Quote :

"just avoid the metro start screen whenever possible"

How, like somehow booting straight to Desktop?

10/16/2012 5:36:37 PM