FORGIVE ALL LOANS!
FREE COLLEGE FOR ALL!

9/26/2011 2:31:46 PM

Yeah, sounds like a bunch of socialists up in this thread.

9/26/2011 3:22:39 PM

Because capitalism means that creditors never have to be held accountable for their bad decisions?

Literally no one is saying that all student loans should be forgiven, only that refinancing/bankruptcy is necessary in some cases. You can't, in one breath, demand that everyone pay their loans back in full, and in another, expect that tuitions will stop ballooning out of control. They're connected.

[Edited on September 26, 2011 at 3:31 PM. Reason : ]

9/26/2011 3:29:17 PM

Quote :

"David0603: How is that my problem?"

They ain't just taking loans. They get federal grants, too.

That is, your precious tax dollars go to the higher "education" of individuals who aren't being prepared for rewarding work in this economy (when that preparation is all that they want). But don't get too excited...they're not just an excellent source of cheap, manipulable labor...they will also continue to rely heavily on the public without earning enough to give back. Oh, and they're still having children.

Times have changed, and we shouldn't be resistant to change with them.

9/26/2011 3:36:21 PM

Quote :

"refinancing/bankruptcy is necessary in some cases."

You can refinance a house, car, etc because you have a tangible asset in case you can not pay the loan. The same is not the case for student loans.

Quote :

"That is, your precious tax dollars go to the higher "education" of individuals who aren't being prepared for rewarding work in this economy"

If they aren't prepared then it's their own damn fault. NCSU didn't hand me a job on a silver platter. I took the initiative to get an internship, get a coop, and network my ass off. Life's hard. Suck it up.

9/26/2011 3:43:44 PM

Quote :

"Life's hard. Suck it up."

This sort of advice doesn't work as national policy. Too many people in this thread with their heads up their asses.

9/26/2011 3:46:34 PM

^^Sure, it may be their fault, but the point is that you pay for it.


And I'm not really talking about NCSU. State schools in NC provide an okay value.

Of course, we all laugh at the people who get online degrees, but we pay for them, too:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/collegeinc/view/

And I'm open: online education (if it actually prepares people for work) is a great alternative to traditional universities that have failed to adapt. And because online schools are private/free market/competing/blah blah blah, they should be cheaper, but surprise surprise, they're not...partly for the same reason traditional universities are so expensive: everybody's getting free/temporarily easy money to go.

And it is your problem because 1) you pay for it and 2) having a bunch of indebted/unemployable citizens is not good for society. Furthermore, this is not the natural way of things. It is the result of personal/policy decisions that we can also choose to change. For once, you gotta resist the urge to shrug off the plight of others.

[Edited on September 26, 2011 at 4:03 PM. Reason : ]

9/26/2011 4:03:29 PM

Quote :

"You can refinance a house, car, etc because you have a tangible asset in case you can not pay the loan. The same is not the case for student loans."

Yes. This is why the market will not support large, widely-accessible student loans. You're arguing that we just allow this crock of an industry to continue, and I have no idea why. It's bad for the overall economy, it's bad for you, and the banks and universities are making money hand over fist.

9/26/2011 4:05:10 PM

PULL YOURSELF UP BY YOUR BOOTSTRAPS



but not me, gimme dat forgiveness for all that debt I acquired while obtaining my worthless accounting degree

9/26/2011 4:10:46 PM

Heh. My facebook quotes from a few weeks ago

Quote :

"Sadly, I have never been poor. I was never forced to pull myself up by my bootstraps. I'm not even sure what bootstraps are exactly but I am certain that if I ever owned any, one of the servants did the pulling for me."

But I don't see this problem. All of my friends have good jobs and are easily paying their student loans and mortgages. If you start saying contracts can be broken then that sets a bad precedent.

9/26/2011 4:19:49 PM

Quote :

"But I don't see this problem. All of my friends have good jobs and are easily paying their student loans and mortgages."

Oh, OK. Then it must not exist. Close up shop, we're done here.

[Edited on September 26, 2011 at 4:25 PM. Reason : What unemployment problem? All my friends have jobs!]

9/26/2011 4:23:04 PM

I'm employed. Surely anybody else could be if they really wanted to.

9/26/2011 4:29:42 PM

I make good money in prostitution.

Most of you dudes will have to be down for gay stuff, but it's a decent living.

9/26/2011 4:32:21 PM

A guy I know moved down here with no contacts except his gf and he was employed within a month. Everyone I speak with is hiring. The tech job threads is btted every week and each time someone new almost joins our work group they get poached by another company. Even when I have known someone to get laid off they almost immediately find new employment.

9/26/2011 4:33:33 PM

True that.

I got a fucking raise during the recession. I have no idea what everybody else's problem is.

9/26/2011 4:34:57 PM

One of my college gfs used to meet guys in online chat rooms and then charge for her "services". She even paid for her bf's xmas presents that way one year.

I don't think she considered it prostitution since she went through a chat room.

9/26/2011 4:35:22 PM

Yeah, "my friend" did that, too.

LOL

9/26/2011 4:41:35 PM

Maybe Dave can post some more anecdotal evidence that will convince me national unemployment numbers are grossly exaggerated

So far it's working!

[Edited on September 26, 2011 at 4:42 PM. Reason : I bet the unemployment thread sees more action than the tech jobs thread]

9/26/2011 4:42:14 PM

^^ LOL

I suppose dating is just glorified prostitution anyway.

9/26/2011 4:52:07 PM

Quote :

"I bet the unemployment thread sees more action than the tech jobs thread"

They just need to become friends with Dave and then they'll find a job.

On a similar note...

Watched "Company Men" last night. Obviously it was a generic example of our economy and the job market...but I felt like it was pretty close to being accurate. Obviously the characters in that movie were not acquaintances with Dave either.

9/26/2011 5:02:56 PM

Need to get Dave down to the local ESC for a meet and greet

9/26/2011 5:14:12 PM

I'm not saying the national unemployment numbers are grossly exaggerated. I guess I just surround myself with intelligent hard working people so my view is skewed. It always amazes me when I hear stories of people being on unemployment for 99 weeks. Maybe people should have some foresight. I'm around layoffs all the time so you better believe I'm damn well prepared, just in case...

9/26/2011 5:19:52 PM

Quote :

"I'm around layoffs all the time so you better believe I'm damn well prepared, just in case..."

Good thing everyone has the same life experiences you do...

9/26/2011 5:31:35 PM

Having a degree doesn't make you intelligent. This thread has proved that. If only the country were more full of arrogant cunts like you with great jobs.

[Edited on September 26, 2011 at 5:41 PM. Reason : I guess the people with shit jobs should have saved more? What the fuck is your point?]

9/26/2011 5:41:26 PM

Life experiences? I read about this stuff every day. I can't help it if I prepare myself and others do not.

Do you think I just tripped and fell into a "great job"? Yes, people with shit jobs should save more.

9/26/2011 5:59:46 PM

People with $10/hr jobs should be able to easily pay off their massive student loans and put away a decent amount in savings.

Got it.

9/26/2011 6:10:12 PM

^^YES! People should save more money! Personal savings are a good thing!!!!

But it's hard for people with high students loans to pay their loans each month and save. This is why it's a good idea for us to address the nature of student loans. Wouldn't you agree?

9/26/2011 6:12:37 PM

Last year I knew two people who make 18K a year. One always paid her bills on time and put a little extra away each month. The other had bill collectors calling her and her phone was cut off due to lack of payment. Some people don't understand living below your means. I used to make $10/hour and got by just fine. My other friend makes that and she chooses to work two jobs so she doesn't get into further debt. This isn't rocket scienc.

9/26/2011 6:24:39 PM

I'll remind you that the subject of conversation here is decent, hard-working people who graduated with excessive student loan debt during a pretty rough recession -- moreover, we're talking about how those people can afford to pay off student loans on meager incomes. We're not talking about 99 weekers who play the system or people who in some way massively contributed to their own debt by lack of proper planning. Realize that these are two very distinct groups.

So, Bob graduates with $50k in student loan debt. He gets the $18k job your friend left after your friend met you and instantly became financially stable.

That's $1500 a month. Assuming the bare minimum: $500 in rent, $75 in utilities, $100/week in food, $25/week in gas, $35/month in car insurance, no health insurance, no luxuries, no emergencies. That leaves $390 each month, enough to maybe make the minimum payment on the student loan and $0 for savings. And that's with zero deductions.

What the holy fuck are you talking about.

9/26/2011 6:36:58 PM

^

9/26/2011 6:40:32 PM

Just curious... what is everybody paying a month and for what degrees?

I pay $288/month for my 5 years at State to get my BS in accounting + enough credits to meet the 150 requirement for the CPA exam

9/26/2011 6:46:26 PM

Quote :

"Yeah. A lot of people arguing on behalf of the institutional status quo in this thread. C'mon guys, the banks and universities are on our side! I mean, I get it. You want your peers to be screwed over permanently, because it means less competition for you. That's human instinct. At the same time, you have to recognize that the system as it exists now, if allowed to continue, will mean a worse future for you as an individual, not just those that bit off more than they could chew. "

woah, you wouldn’t be arguing for social engineering would you…?

^I have 0 student loans, my parents paid for 4 [wasted] years for me. I paid the rest out of pocket, working full time.


[Edited on September 26, 2011 at 6:50 PM. Reason : ]

9/26/2011 6:49:14 PM

Quote :

"Just curious... what is everybody paying a month and for what degrees?"

I pay about $350/month

I graduated with about $20k in loan debt and a degree I'll never use. I bootstrapped the fuck out myself, maybe more than anyone else in here. Grew up lower middle class. In high school my dad said we'll borrow whatever it takes, don't worry about it -- and right before I graduated he pulled the rug out from under me.

I've said it several times that I'm not in favor of this proposal. I'll happily pay off the rest of my loans knowing it's a lesson learned. What really needs to happen is massive reform, starting with better entry counseling, bridget's right about that. Also important (and the reason I keep posting) is that those of us with good jobs and no problem paying our loans and saving for the unexpected need to exhibit some fucking compassion for those who are worse off. There's a disappointing amount of assuming and sterotyping going on here. Just show some empathy, I mean jeez guys.

9/26/2011 6:57:53 PM

18k job? Is this the average entry level salary for a new grad now? That's about $9/hr.

Anyone willing to move heavy shit around or talk to people on the phone can find a job to make that much.

[Edited on September 26, 2011 at 7:07 PM. Reason : ;]

9/26/2011 7:06:48 PM

http://data.bls.gov/pdq/SurveyOutputServlet (all the data below is coming from BLS, BCBS, Raleigh Real Estate, and News & Observer)

There are as many open jobs today as there were in 2002-2003. 3.22 million job openings.

There are ~9million people unemployed today. Normal unemployment is 4-6million folks. In a normal economy there is one open job for every 2 seeking. Today is 1:3. That's FACTUAL data.

Median weekly earning (take home pay) for people age 16-24, which fits your target demographic is $443 (1772 per month).

$500/mo in rent is nowhere near bare minimum. Median room rental price in Raleigh, NC is $375/mo. $100/week for food is almost double "bare minimum" for a person (my SO and I spend just barely over that per week together, and we eat VERY well). Your car insurance rate is more than half the median ($495 per 6 months).

So lets look at reality here for "bare minimums".

$1772 per month take home pay - $375 rent - $82.50 car insurance - $250 food - $100 gas = $964.50 left over. Add another $110/mo for BCBS PlanC health insurance (again median), and you are left with $854/mo to pay student loans and other bills.

Which is completely reasonable.

EVERY Number used is median data from massive nationwide samples, and from NC median data for health insurance, car insurance and rent. This is for a person making $21,250 per year in take home pay ($25,000 pre-tax). That is $12.75 per hour wage pre-tax (assuming 40/hr weeks and a 49 work week year). For your minimum wage earner, this means working 60hr weeks, or one full time and one part time job at minimum wage, which again is a completely reasonable scenario.

So I call serious bullshit that a single 20-something can't pay their bills and save money every month with a VERY modest income.


[Edited on September 26, 2011 at 7:16 PM. Reason : . ]

9/26/2011 7:10:46 PM

Quote :

"I've said it several times that I'm not in favor of this proposal. I'll happily pay off the rest of my loans knowing it's a lesson learned. What really needs to happen is massive reform, starting with better entry counseling, bridget's right about that. Also important (and the reason I keep posting) is that those of us with good jobs and no problem paying our loans and saving for the unexpected need to exhibit some fucking compassion for those who are worse off. There's a disappointing amount of assuming and sterotyping going on here. Just show some empathy, I mean jeez guys."

I agree with everything you've said up until the point about it being my responsibility to pay the bills for people who were irresponsible. "worse off" because of the economy is one thing, thats out of our controls. But every one of us had the CHOICE whether to take on student loans, whether to go to university in the first place, and which universities we chose to attend.

I show plenty of personal empathy. I've helped many folks in my former degree program to find jobs, give references and prepare them for career shifts. But I'm not paying their loans for them.

9/26/2011 7:14:16 PM

Quote :

"my responsibility to pay the bills for people who were irresponsible"

Never said anything like that. Another suggestion would be to stop changing my argument to fit yours.

[Edited on September 26, 2011 at 7:29 PM. Reason : And lol @ those numbers. We're not talking about Mikey Median here.]

9/26/2011 7:22:06 PM

Quote :

"I agree with everything you've said up until the point about it being my responsibility to pay the bills for people who were irresponsible."

This is just fucking horseshit is the point people are trying to make that you ivory towerers can't comprehend.

Here, I'll post it in big letters so you understand it

PEOPLE DON'T SET OUT TO BE IRRESPONSIBLE

Let that sink in.

Sure, it's real god damn easy 2 years after a recession and a job market that shit the bed to sit on your perch and say

"The fuck were you thinking spending 50k on a lib arts degree, didn't you know you couldn't get work"?

And then telling these people to go do job x or y or z to pay off the debt.

You got guys saying telemarketers get paid bank, you got guys saying anyone can work at UPS, and guys that are just outright fucking oblivious to that fact (and this is important, read it a few times if you have to)

THERE ARE MORE PEOPLE LOOKING FOR WORK THAN ARE JOBS AVAILABLE RIGHT NOW


It's just some really retarded myopic bullshit "oh, look, I did it and I know some people that did it thus everyone can do it"

9/26/2011 7:30:06 PM

I didn't realize it's such a dire situation. Or that 18k is the norm now.

In my experience, at least around Raleigh, you can find ways to make money. It may just mean having to hustle and/or do manual labor.

9/26/2011 7:35:52 PM

^^You just ignored all the data I just posted. I'm not in any Ivory Tower. I took out 30k in student loans for my graduate degree, and I was making less than 20k a year for my first 3 years out of school. I got a deferral for a year, and then I paid my bills for the next two years.

^ It's not a dire situation. There are 3 people looking for work, for every open position. Those are not dire numbers by any means. And people can pay their student loans.

Hell, if you REALLY want your loan to disappear, move to Washington state and become a Nurse. The state will repay up to $70,000 of your student loans. linky. There are MANY programs like this. But all this bullshit "I only want to do the job I learned, or only want to do what I love" entitlement gets in the way of people just swallowing their pride and earning a living.

Quote :

"And lol @ those numbers. We're not talking about Mikey Median here"

Mikey Median is making just less than 50% more than minimum wage. And working two jobs (one PT, one FT) at minimum wage gets you to Mikey Median. So you tell me what is wrong with the number above?

I'm also including health insurance and a substantially higher car insurance rate than you quoted.

[Edited on September 26, 2011 at 7:39 PM. Reason : . ]

9/26/2011 7:39:08 PM

Quote :

" And working two jobs (one PT, one FT) at minimum wage gets you to Mikey Median. So you tell me what is wrong with the number above?"

The problem is that you want everyone to get two jobs when a fuckton can't get one job.

[Edited on September 26, 2011 at 7:42 PM. Reason : Just ignore that I was replying to an $18k salary. Of course there's more to save when you earn more]

9/26/2011 7:41:45 PM

^The 3:1 is for full time jobs. Part time jobs and seasonal employment is much easier to find.

Also, do you not understand median numbers? $25k pre-tax is COMPLETELY REPRESENTATIVE income for 16-25 year olds. It's not a pie in the sky number, its WHAT PEOPLE MAKE.

So you have spent two pages shooting me and others down for using anecdotal data. Now you're shooting me down for using completely objective data. So you tell me what data source I need to use to show how completely reasonable it is for single college-graduates to repay their student loans?

9/26/2011 7:54:02 PM

See, here's what some bullshit

I have a very good friend of mine who graduated with a creative writing degree. According to this thread, he shouldn't have a job.


Well, turns out he worked his ass off all through school, going to school and working at the same time. He was working at Target for over a year, decided he didn't like those people, then got a job at a movie theater. He worked there for many months/semesters, going to school and paying his bills. Upon graduating in the summer of 2010, he had opportunity to stay there and have a good chance at a manager position...decided against that and went back to Target in the mean time. Once again, opportunity to stay for awhile and get into manager positions. With this position secure, he applied for many "real" jobs and got a sales job at a local start up. Turns out it wasn't the best job or company for him so he quit. With no job in hand, he took a seasonal position cutting and running ham back forth between a mall kiosk and a stocking center. That position ended, and he applied to a second-shift state government position and is basically the top dog in performance, thus having a great chance at moving upward when promotions come along.

All the while he has kept up with his writing and, last I checked, found and hooked up with another local start up company to do some freelance writing.


All in the middle of a recession and 10%+ unemployment with a creative writing degree.





And you people say there aren't jobs?


By the way, manager positions at Target make $50-60k, and there's a new store opening up in Morrisville.

[Edited on September 26, 2011 at 8:20 PM. Reason : by my count that's 8 positions that pay money to pay bills]

9/26/2011 8:14:17 PM

Noen, you're purposefully ignoring a larger and more interesting pickle: the cost/role of higher education.

You (and apparently, ThePeter) seem to be still caught up on your initial reaction to the thread's original post. But the conversation is much more complicated/fascinating than your personal opinions about people's sense of entitlement and ability to work.

9/26/2011 8:16:51 PM

My problem isn't with your numbers, they look perfectly reasonable.

My problem is that I reply to a guy about a bullshit $18k salary and you come charging in like the white knight of the BLS.

Couple things do stick out -- mainly that you think people making $25k get three weeks vacation.

--

Christ, Peter

Not everyone's situation is the same. Your friend did it. I did it. Thousands of people do it. Some people can't. Stop with the bullshit anecdotes.

[Edited on September 26, 2011 at 8:18 PM. Reason : ]

9/26/2011 8:17:40 PM

Speaking of the original post

Nobody's talking about this

Quote :

"Congress should cut the United States' true debt burden by reducing home mortgage balances"

9/26/2011 8:20:41 PM

I just wanted my cool story bro moment too, man

I can't help but get annoyed with people who go 6 months+ without a job and bitch about it. He's not the only guy I know who has done that. Another buddy got a job at the prison with no degree. Jobs are out there...just not the shiny ones you get a trophy for.

[Edited on September 26, 2011 at 8:22 PM. Reason : DOUBLE POST SUSPEND]

9/26/2011 8:21:55 PM

Quote :

"I can't help but get annoyed with people who go 6 months+ without a job and bitch about it."

Thing is, the only people bitching here are people with good jobs. You guys have some misplaced disdain for shitty people that you keep trying to apply to every CHASS grad or every unemployed person or anyone with debt. Keep it between the lines.

9/26/2011 8:27:12 PM

I'm more so referring to the unemployment thread over the past year or two

[Edited on September 26, 2011 at 8:45 PM. Reason : -ThePeter]

9/26/2011 8:44:57 PM

Quote :

"Noen, you're purposefully ignoring a larger and more interesting pickle: the cost/role of higher education."

I'm not ignoring that at all. The role of higher education has been MASSIVELY distorted over the past 20 years in the US. The whole notion that in order to be a successful adult, one must go to university is WRONG in so many ways.

Most other 1st world countries still have a balanced University/Skilled Trade system. The US did too until the "studies" showing that college degrees = higher overall income potential started getting attention in the late 80's/early 90's. Since then it's been an educational bubble, not unlike the Housing Market.

University of Phoenix is a great example. They have 80%+ of their students taking out loans. They have a 7% graduation rate.

We as a society need to undo this bullshit mythology that kids who don't go to college are stupid, lower-class or somehow inferior to those that do. University has never been about preparing people for jobs. That has always been the job of community colleges and trade schools.

The cost of education is rising dramatically because the perceived demand for education is rising dramatically. The problem is that the whole thing is propped up by socio-political elitist and class-ist propaganda.


You want to solve the problem of rising University costs? RAISE entrance requirements, RAISE course and curriculum difficulty, and rebuild the respectability of skilled trades. If there are FEWER kids going to university, the cost per student will go down because capital expenditures will decrease dramatically.

9/26/2011 9:09:22 PM