6

10/11/2011 11:42:28 AM

Quote :

"you assume that the protesters are not out looking for work. what facts do you have to back up that assumption?"

...because they are protesting and not out looking for work...

10/11/2011 1:39:01 PM

...because they are protesting and not out looking for work...

[Edited on October 11, 2011 at 1:52 PM. Reason : ]

10/11/2011 1:43:12 PM

...because they are protesting and not out looking for work...

10/11/2011 1:46:36 PM

juliana goldman looking gooooooood tonight.

Also, Herman seems to be doing a good job of inserting some comedy. Makes him warm. However, I still feel like he's VP material at best.

10/11/2011 9:48:37 PM

Quote :

"Cain also insisted he is not just a “flavor of the week candidate.” “The answer is an emphatic ‘no,’” he said, “because Häagen-Dazs black walnut tastes good all the time.”"

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2011/10/herman-cain-says-he-could-draw-black-voters-from-obama/

10/12/2011 8:21:42 PM

You need to click this link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DrSEyjBj1w

10/18/2011 11:32:30 AM

http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2011/10/herman-cain

Quote :

"Dial 9-9-9 for nonsense Oct 17th 2011, 20:52 by W.W. | IOWA CITY HERMAN CAIN is riding high in the polls. Among other things, his ascent is based upon a charming sense of humour, rousing oratorical skills, a story of moderate achievement in business, zero experience in elected office, which has allowed him to mould a perfectly zeitgest-matching conservative platform untainted by a record of no-longer zeitgest-matching political decisions, and, finally, the bold, clear proposition of the 9-9-9 tax plan. Now that Mr Cain is having a moment in the sun, what had seemed a gimmicky ploy is undergoing serious scrutiny, and we can expect Mr Cain to get hammered on the details of the 9-9-9 plan in tomorrow night's Republican debate. Mr Cain touts the simplicity of the 9-9-9 plan, but it is anything but simple. Even after reading about it on Mr Cain's campaign site, I'm still not sure I understand it. I thought I knew that the plan proposed 9% income, sales, and corporate tax rates. But the corporate tax is not a simple reduction in the corporate tax rate, as I had thought, but a value-added-tax on "Gross income less all purchases from other U.S. located businesses, all capital investment, and net exports." Anyway, the 9-9-9 plan is not what Mr Cain ultimately has in mind for American tax policy. It is but the first step of a two-step process to replace most federal taxes with a 30% national sales tax, a version of the so-called "Fair Tax". Why not go directly to the Fair Tax, then? Why the transitional step? Mr Cain's statement doesn't really say, though it does seem to imply that the Fair Tax is at present too unpopular to implement. "Amidst a backdrop of the economic renewal created by the 9-9-9 Plan," Mr Cain says "I will begin the process of educating the American people on the benefits of continuing the next step to the Fair Tax." Mike Huckabee, a Fox News presenter and former governor of Arkansas, plumped for the Fair Tax during the 2008 race for the Republican nomination and the plan came in for a lot of abuse by economists and commentators across the ideological continuum. Perhaps Mr Huckabee's failure to get far with the Fair Tax explains Mr Cain's choice to campaign on an altogether different tax plan. Perhaps the idea is that he can capture the allegiance of the Fair Tax's many conservative fans while ducking the criticisms of the Fair Tax by pushing a fresh plan with a catchy name implying super-low rates. But this can only work if (a) the media and Mr Cain's competition let him get away with advocating the Fair Tax while running on his transitional plan, and (b) the transitional plan stands up to scrutiny better than the Fair Tax has. And this seems unlikely. The National Review today ran a blistering critique of Mr Cain's 9-9-9 plan. A selection: This tripartite scheme makes for a succinct slogan but has little else to recommend it. In particular Cain’s inability to choose between a sales tax and a VAT is puzzling. The two are very similar in their economic effects. The chief advantage of the sales tax over a VAT is that the latter is considered easier for governments to raise, because it is hidden. The chief advantage of the VAT over the sales tax is that it is easier to enforce without stimulating black markets. (Another is that it reduces the risk of taxing business-to-business purchases.) Opting for both as a transitional step means courting the danger of a VAT with none of its rewards: In the first stage, the government would get a new money machine, and in the second it would supposedly destroy that machine and opt for something hard to enforce. The two-stage scheme is self-defeating in another respect as well. The 30 percent national sales tax, whatever its other merits, would be significantly softer on the poor than the 9-9-9 transitional step, since the larger sales tax includes a “prebate” check to all Americans to exempt the basic necessities of life from being taxed, while 9-9-9 includes no similar provision. Leaving aside whether a major tax increase on people at the bottom of the income scale is a good idea, what is the point of first raising their taxes and then cutting them? In the last debate, only Rick Santorum noted that Mr Cain's plan involves the danger of even temporarily handing the government "a new money machine", a point one would expect to resonate with conservative voters. I expect we'll hear a lot more of this line of argument in upcoming debates. More generally, the fact that Mr Cain apparently believes it is politically feasible to wipe out the entire status-quo federal tax system in order to move to the 9-9-9 scheme, and then wipe out the entire 9-9-9 scheme in order move to a 30% national sales tax seems to me to draw attention to Mr Cain's policy inexperience and dazzling political naivete. That the 9-9-9 plan would cut taxes on the rich while raising them on the poor led Bruce Bartlett to call the proposal "a distributional monstrosity", a phrase you could imagine Barack Obama using to good effect in a general election. Why would you propose to raise taxes on the poor, making yourself vulnerable to charges of monstrous callousness, when, as the NR editors note, your ultimate plan would only cut them later? Well, you wouldn't, if you knew what you were doing. It requires only superficial examination to see that Mr Cain's 9-9-9/Fair Tax scheme is more an ill-considered, hand-waving improvisation than a serious plan from a serious policymaker. He's winging it, which I supposed makes it all the more impressive that he's been able to wing it all the way to preeminence in a few polls. But now he's made himself a target, and an easy one at that, so I doubt Mr Cain will wing it all the way to the nomination."

10/18/2011 12:56:46 PM

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2011/oct/18/herman-cain/herman-cain-says-9-9-9-plan-does-not-raise-taxes-t/

The Tax Policy Center analyzed Cain’s plan using the same type of models it has used to examine other national tax proposals. The analysis found that Cain’s tax plan would result in tax cuts for many of the wealthiest tax payers and tax increases for the poorest tax payers. The center found that 83.8 percent of tax filers would get a tax increase under Cain’s plan, compared with current tax policy. On the other hand, most of the tax filers who make more than $1 million would get a tax cut under the Cain plan, about 95.4 percent of this high income group. And the average tax cut for millionaires would be $487,300. The center also offered analysis of Cain’s plan by income level compared with current tax policy. Most people earning lower incomes would see a tax increase.

Cash income Percentage of filers with a tax increase
Less than $10,000 84.1
$10,000 to $20,000 97.8
$20,000 to $30,000 97.3
$30,000 to $40,000 94.9
$40,000 to $50,000 92.1
$50,000 to $75,000 83.7

[Edited on October 19, 2011 at 3:13 PM. Reason : .]

10/19/2011 3:12:24 PM

The 9-9-9 thing is one of the most gimmicky things I can remember.


It's also a terrible idea that would burden way too many people and completely cripple the consumer market.

10/19/2011 3:17:47 PM

to counter ^^^

Quote :

"Cain's Stimulating '9-9-9' Tax Reform A new sales tax could be raised in the future—but so can any other tax. And the low marginal rates would jump-start the economy. By ARTHUR B. LAFFER It used to be that the sole purpose of the tax code was to raise the necessary funds to run government. But in today's world the tax mandate has many more facets. These include income redistribution, encouraging favored industries, and discouraging unfavorable behavior. To make matters worse there are millions and millions of taxpayers who are highly motivated to reduce their tax liabilities. And, as those taxpayers finagle and connive to find ways around the tax code, government responds by propagating new rules, new interpretations of the code, and new taxes in a never-ending chase. In the process, we create ever-more arcane tax codes that do a poor job of achieving any of their mandates. Republican presidential candidate Herman Cain's now famous "9-9-9" plan is his explicit proposal to right the wrongs of our federal tax code. He proposes a 9% flat-rate personal income tax with no deductions except for donations to charity; a 9% flat-rate tax on net business profits; and a new 9% national tax on retail sales. Mr. Cain's 9-9-9 plan was designed to be what economists call "static revenue neutral," which means that if people didn't change what they do under his plan, total tax revenues would be the same as they are under our current tax code. I believe his plan would indeed be static revenue neutral, and with the boost it would give to economic growth it would bring in even more revenue than expected. In the recent past, federal tax revenues from the personal and business income taxes, all payroll taxes, and the capital gains, gift and estate taxes have averaged $2.3 trillion, while gross domestic product has averaged about $14.5 trillion. The total revenue from these taxes as a share of gross domestic product averages around 16%. Sometimes it's a good deal higher, as in the boom of the late 1990s, and sometimes its lower, as in today's "Great Recession." But a number in the 16%-19% range is as good as you'll get under our current tax code. By contrast, the three tax bases for Mr. Cain's 9-9-9 plan add up to about $33 trillion. But the plan exempts from any tax people below the poverty line. Using poverty tables, this exemption reduces each tax base by roughly $2.5 trillion. Thus, Mr. Cain's 9-9-9 tax base for his business tax is $9.5 trillion, for his income tax $7.7 trillion, and for his sales tax $8.3 trillion. And there you have it! Three federal taxes at 9% that would raise roughly $2.3 trillion and replace the current income tax, corporate tax, payroll tax (employer and employee), capital gains tax and estate tax. The whole purpose of a flat tax, à la 9-9-9, is to lower marginal tax rates and simplify the tax code. With lower marginal tax rates (and boy will marginal tax rates be lower with the 9-9-9 plan), both the demand for and the supply of labor and capital will increase. Output will soar, as will jobs. Tax revenues will also increase enormously—not because tax rates have increased, but because marginal tax rates have decreased. By making the tax codes a lot simpler, we'd allow individuals and businesses to spend a lot less on maintaining tax records; filing taxes; hiring lawyers, accountants and tax-deferral experts; and lobbying Congress. As I wrote on this page earlier this year ("The 30-Cent Tax Premium," April 18), for every dollar of business and personal income taxes paid, some 30 cents in out-of-pocket expenses also were paid to comply with the tax code. Under 9-9-9, these expenses would plummet without a penny being lost to the U.S. Treasury. It's a win-win. Related Video A static revenue-neutral tax change requires static winners and losers. And this 9-9-9 plan has made certain that even on static terms those below the poverty line will be better off—period. Once the dynamics take hold, many of those below the poverty line will find good jobs and thus will rise above the poverty line and start paying taxes. This is the type of tax increase I wholeheartedly support. I support collecting more in taxes from people with high incomes who choose to actually pay taxes at lower tax rates than use lawyers and accountants to avoid taxes at higher tax rates. Some tax revenues at low tax rates is a heckuva lot better than no tax revenues at high tax rates. While the 9-9-9 plan has captured people's imaginations at this moment, it's not all that different from California Gov. Jerry Brown's 13% flat tax when he ran for president in 1992. As you may recall, he came in second behind Bill Clinton in the Democratic Party primary. In 1986, President Reagan passed a major tax-reform bill that lowered to 28% from 50% the top marginal personal income tax rate. The Tax Reform Act of 1986 also raised the lowest marginal income tax rate to 15% from 11% and closed many loopholes, making for a flatter tax structure. Reagan's bill passed the Senate in a landslide 97-to-3 vote. Who says a flat tax can't be a bipartisan proposal? Still, a number of my fellow economists don't like the retail sales component of the 9-9-9 plan. They argue that, once in place, the retail rate could be raised to the moon. They are correct, but what they miss is that any tax could be instituted in the future at a higher rate. If I could figure a way to stop future Congresses from ever raising taxes I'd do it every day of the week and twice on Sunday. Until then, let's not make the perfect the enemy of the good. "

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204346104576637310315367804.html?mod=WSJ_Opinion_LEADTop

10/19/2011 3:44:33 PM

A couple days old, but mod, plz2embed.



[Edited on October 19, 2011 at 5:47 PM. Reason : zxv]

10/19/2011 4:26:53 PM

Quote :

"Once the dynamics take hold, many of those below the poverty line will find good jobs and thus will rise above the poverty line and start paying taxes."

thats speculation ... so first we are going to take more of the poor peoples money but tell them not to worry b/c once this "takes hold" you are going to be making great money.

what ever ... this guy will be waaaaaaaaay worse then Obama. Is he still keeping his economic team on hush hush? Just last week he would not tell anyone who his main economic advisers are. what is his stance on foreign policy ... probably none.

10/19/2011 5:51:26 PM

epic pic alert

10/19/2011 5:55:33 PM

Quote :

"what ever ... this guy will be waaaaaaaaay worse then Obama."

Not fucking possible.

10/19/2011 6:03:32 PM

well he hates the gays
hates poor people
has no political background
generally thinks that he can retool the current tax scheme twice in a term ... has NEVER been done to my knowledge
no real meat and potatoes behind that economic plan which will kill the lower middle class and below.
no foreign policy - i mean just look at some of the stupid shit he said last night regarding negotiation with terrorists.
etc
etc
etc

[Edited on October 19, 2011 at 6:17 PM. Reason : i might have to defrind some people that vote for this schmuck ]

10/19/2011 6:16:05 PM

Quote :

"well he hates the gays hates poor people"

Typical unfounded liberal attacks. Page one of one of the Dem playbook.

Quote :

"has no political background"

Yes, he's not just a politician. People seem to like that about him.

Quote :

"generally thinks that he can retool the current tax scheme twice in a term ... has NEVER been done to my knowledge "

I'm certainly in agreement with him that something has to be done, and we have to start somewhere.

Quote :

"no real meat and potatoes behind that economic plan which will kill the lower middle class and below."

And here we are back to page one of one. If there's no real meat and potatoes out there, how can you be so sure that it will kill the lower middle class and below?

Quote :

"no foreign policy - i mean just look at some of the stupid shit he said last night regarding negotiation with terrorists."

Oh, like our current leader's bold plan for foreign policy. Pull us out of conflicts. He's doing a bang up job of following that to the letter.

Quote :

"i might have to defrind some people that vote for this schmuck"

I know the feeling, I've had to run a few undereducated and over opinionated libs from my list as well lately.

10/19/2011 6:30:31 PM

Cain supporters deserve to have a giant "I" for idiot branded somewhere visible on their body

10/19/2011 6:34:00 PM

I would argue the same goes for Obama.

[Edited on October 19, 2011 at 6:36 PM. Reason : \/ I did. Wouldn't it be cool if Dems had a page 2 to work with too?]

10/19/2011 6:34:51 PM

go ahead

10/19/2011 6:35:44 PM

he's actually fairly liberal on the gay marriage thing, at least for a conservative

10/19/2011 6:39:49 PM

Seriously, who of the republican candidates would not sink the ship as well and still not do as much as Obama has done?

10/19/2011 6:41:29 PM

Uh, they all wanted to repeal Obamacare. That in itself is enough of a good start to righting the ship.

10/19/2011 6:43:09 PM

If they are all calling for a flat tax or 999 then they will sink the ship and the first casualties will be the middle class.

And if Obamacare is the fist thing a republican in office will call for then they don't see what the problem is....the whole job situation and helping to not create another recession. Spending and jobs. I think most of these guys have that in site but I do hope Obamacare is further down the list to argue about.

10/19/2011 6:44:00 PM

And how do you know this?

[Edited on October 19, 2011 at 6:45 PM. Reason : Your doctorate in Econ comes from where?]

10/19/2011 6:45:07 PM

fact: every single problem this country has ever had came after January 20, 2009

10/19/2011 6:45:22 PM

Your inability to deal in anything but extremes really weakens anything you have to say.

[Edited on October 19, 2011 at 6:48 PM. Reason : Obamacare is impeding hiring, companies are unsure of what the cost will be to hire right now.]

10/19/2011 6:46:14 PM

was that post addressed to yourself?

10/19/2011 6:48:12 PM

Quote :

"Typical unfounded liberal attacks. Page one of one of the Dem playbook."

back it up purveyor of truth...he generally has a belief about gay people that will hold them back from a social standing. they will never have the same rights as a hetero couple under Cain. he has stated as such.

He hates poor people ... just look at his 999 plan / proof is in the pudding.

Quote :

"Yes, he's not just a politician. People seem to like that about him."

oh i think its great that he has no clue how to run a country but can make a damn fine pizza. hell, lets put Guinessboy wthf ever in office.

Quote :

"And here we are back to page one of one. If there's no real meat and potatoes out there, how can you be so sure that it will kill the lower middle class and below?"

\
oh, i dont know. i watch more than fox news (fair and balancedloler) and i read a lot of work by smart people who live their lives for economics. these experts that know way more about economics that I do say so ... i tend to believe them. coupled with my own research its easy to come to that conclusion. the lower class will be taxed HIGER than currently under Cains plan. so...what dont you get?

Quote :

"Oh, like our current leader's bold plan for foreign policy. Pull us out of conflicts. He's doing a bang up job of following that to the letter."

george bush couldnt kill osama bin laden, the number 2 guy, or the western face of terror Anwar al-Awlaqi. seems to me that the dems didnt start these wars that we are now faced with.

10/19/2011 6:48:41 PM

I am a registered Independent for a reason. I will vote for the best person for the job...one that has more of their people in mind. I know for fact that having type I diabetes would have me vote for Obamacare often. That is about as socialist I get. Yes, my health situation makes me a socialist.

I will not argue about this. I just asked a legitimate question.

10/19/2011 6:49:13 PM

You made the unfounded claims, you prove it.

The fact that he ran multiple businesses successfully, not making pizza, running organizations is what is impressive. You can characterize it simply as making pizza if you want, but his very successful CEO and leadership experience is what makes him appealing.

Different organizations have different takes on the 9-9-9 plan. You can follow the reports you wish to. Certain organizations will never find any good in it though. Just consider your source. The fact that you said there's no meat and potatoes yet evidence of some doom for the lower middle class is oxymoronic at best.

George Bush sent us to Libya and CAR as well right?

[Edited on October 19, 2011 at 7:01 PM. Reason : ]

10/19/2011 6:50:13 PM

I was seriously hoping his 9-9-9 plan meant that I could order 3 Large pizzas with unlimited toppings for $9 each.

10/19/2011 6:51:53 PM

I, too, am an obamacare fan, but then again, up until then I was uninsurable due to a "pre-existing condition"

10/19/2011 6:53:26 PM

I support health care reform, I do not support a single payer government run healthcare system.

There are lots of ways that health care can be reformed without it being run by the government.

10/19/2011 6:55:40 PM

like you said earlier

Quote :

"I'm certainly in agreement with him that something has to be done, and we have to start somewhere."

10/19/2011 6:57:57 PM

http://www.itepnet.org/whopays3.pdf

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703703304576299560728821804.html

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1941800

http://www.usnews.com/opinion/articles/2010/04/12/flat-tax-is-class-warfare

let me find the others. I have been trying to understand both the flat tax and the 999 and I am not seeing what I like.

Please link me to something else to change my mind.

Quote :

"I support health care reform, I do not support a single payer government run healthcare system. There are lots of ways that health care can be reformed without it being run by the government."

Yes. I completely agree and believe this quote. We need other options but no one is coming up with one. If they repeal it, PLEASE have something else to take it's place.

10/19/2011 7:00:09 PM

Are you even reading the articles you're posting? That WSJ is about Obama.

You can use Google to find dissenting opinions for the most part. Congratulations.

[Edited on October 19, 2011 at 7:14 PM. Reason : How about you make a thread about it so this can stay on topic?]

10/19/2011 7:10:21 PM

I am not making a thread because I am still trying to understand this. I don't make threads for subjects like this because I am not a guru. Also it is chit chat. You make it. I have heard many talks about this and have read many articles. I am not happy with the percentage of people who don't pay taxes be that lower class or upper class. I think most people want a politician that supports them and that is what I am looking for...someone who thinks of the people in the middle who don't get the fairness. That is also something I am trying to understand: the fair tax. Herman Cain is not for me. I am willing to vote for someone who will help my family and me fiscally. And I would think that most people in the US are prob in the same class and boat as me.

I am not always happy with Obama but I am really not happy with anyone on the opposing team, at least enough to vote for one. Where is my outlier?

10/19/2011 7:26:31 PM

I don't think the issue is that the poor aren't paying enough. The issue is that the income tax system is absurdly complex, has more exceptions than rules, and the ultra-rich know how to game the system well enough to avoid pay much in taxes.

We should have something like a flat rate consumption tax, possibly with luxury items being taxed at higher rate. That would go a long way in dismantling the bureaucracy that has risen up around our tax system, which was designed by the rich to work for the rich.

Taxes are a small piece of the puzzle, though. Really, we need to slash government spending. End the wars, end the drug war, and end the bailouts. That will free up a lot of money and we won't need to tax people so much. We don't need to have a discussion about "raising revenue" before we have a discussion about gutting the hell out of the federal government. And, of course, we can't seriously talk about any of that before we talk about the role of the Federal Reserve, which Herman Cain says is a "stupid" discussion to have.

^The outliers are Ron Paul and Gary Johnson. Everyone else might as well be the same.

[Edited on October 19, 2011 at 7:33 PM. Reason : ]

10/19/2011 7:30:39 PM

nm...wrong thoughts.

[Edited on October 19, 2011 at 7:35 PM. Reason : YIKES]

10/19/2011 7:33:08 PM

They are both GOP candidates for office, although you would not know that by watching the news or listening to the GOP establishment.

10/19/2011 7:34:19 PM

Man, there is so much to read about this stuff. We prob do need a thread just about information because I feel so swamped with trying to keep up. I REALLY try to be informed when I vote.

I wish I could vote in the primaries. Is there a way to get rid of that one party type voting?

[Edited on October 19, 2011 at 7:42 PM. Reason : On Point is talking about health care.]

10/19/2011 7:41:11 PM

The fuck is all this Soap Box shit?

10/19/2011 7:43:15 PM

that's what I thought. I have been sweating since I have been posting in this thread.

10/19/2011 7:44:02 PM

Quote :

"I wish I could vote in the primaries. Is there a way to get rid of that one party type voting?"

You can vote in the primaries. In North Carolina, unaffiliated voters can vote in either party's primary. Are you registered to vote?

10/19/2011 7:49:09 PM

I am a registered independent. I was misinformed about that or maybe I forgot I was able to do that last time. Hmmmm....

10/19/2011 7:50:21 PM

http://www.nc-politics.com/vguide.htm

Quote :

"In a Primary Election you Nominate party candidates and in a General Election you Elect officials. In Partisan Primaries, you vote only the primary of the party with which you are affiliated. At this time, the Democrat and Republican partied allow unaffiliated voters to vote in their primaries. "

10/19/2011 7:51:44 PM

Now that I think of it, i think I did vote in the democrat primary last time. My burst.

10/19/2011 7:52:39 PM

Quote :

"You can characterize it simply as making pizza if you want, but his very successful CEO and leadership experience is what makes him appealing."

So successful that they had to shut down HALF of their locations?

[Edited on October 19, 2011 at 7:55 PM. Reason : Pretty low bar for "successful"]

10/19/2011 7:54:47 PM

Yes, he came in and cleaned up someone else's mess and got things running right again.

Which is exactly what I hope he can do if elected.

10/19/2011 7:56:36 PM