please show me in that study where they attribute it to fluoridation of municipal water like you falsely claim

... exactly

like i said, misinformation compaign

4/16/2013 9:18:49 AM

^

hahahaha

4/16/2013 9:23:48 AM

Solid response champ.

You did add that clause to your statement which isn't supported by the cdc page.

http://www.cdc.gov/fluoridation/safety/dental_fluorosis.htm

Quote :

"What causes dental fluorosis? Dental fluorosis is caused by taking in too much fluoride over a long period when the teeth are forming under the gums. Only children aged 8 years and younger are at risk because this is when permanent teeth are developing under the gums. The severity of the condition depends on the dose (how much), duration (how long), and timing (when consumed) of fluoride intake. Increases in the occurrence of mostly mild dental fluorosis were recognized as more sources of fluoride became available to prevent tooth decay. [These sources include drinking water with fluoride, fluoride toothpaste—especially if swallowed by young children—and dietary prescription supplements in tablets or drops (particularly if prescribed to children already drinking fluoridated water)."

Also, mild fluorosis is preferable to tooth decay and not just aesthetically. The "danger" of fluorosis is a non-argument.

4/16/2013 9:36:55 AM

thegoldenrul, do you get this flustered and angry anytime someone who actually knows what they are talking about challenges you?

4/16/2013 9:38:58 AM

I'm not flustered at all. In fact I would welcome any time, any where a public debate on the subject where those of you who "know" so much about this can discuss it and challenge me like a real person. I have even issued this challenge to the "experts" in the area who are "pro-fluoride" but they only want to discuss the topic when the rules are set in their favor and no real questions can be asked. This became self evident when I was literally removed by a deputy sheriff from the Durham Public health board meeting for exposing their deception. The panel set to testify to the efficacy of water fluoridation did not even allow public debate on the subject, so what does that tell you about the pro-fluoridationist crowd? They are afraid of the discussion itself, as it is so easily exposed.

Of course, i know there isn't a single soul here with the bravery or comprehension necessary to actually debate the other side of the issue so I never expect a legitimate contender to step forward.

The situation is more sad, than frustrating, as the low level of awareness I am witnessing via this message board and other venues tell me that I have a long way to go before anything gets legitimately addressed by the city government.

That said it is sometimes funny to me the hostility I face from people who have an opinion on this topic only because of the indoctrination they experienced growing up. With the repetition that "fluoride is good for the teeth!" it's amazing to see how your brain becomes wired to accept what the state gives you, and so when I present the alternative viewpoint it becomes quite painful information to consider.

[Edited on April 16, 2013 at 10:51 AM. Reason : addition]

4/16/2013 10:48:03 AM

did you present as much misinformation at that meeting as you have in this thread?

4/16/2013 10:55:02 AM

I presented their own documents which the water management department personally tendered to me which show from where Hydrofluorosilicic acid is purchased, a basic truth totally obfuscated by the panel they hand-picked to testify.

Hardly misinformation when it was their own paperwork being used to expose the truth.

4/16/2013 10:56:54 AM

what was the point of that, no one is saying that it is not purchased and used to treat the water are they? the reason that document isn't shocking to anyone is because everyone acknowledges that this activity is happening.

in the meeting minutes you then mentioned arsenic after presenting that document, I think I've made it clear why this is just misinformation fear-mongering. stop trying to use arsenic from that document to scare people into supporting your cause, if you want to talk about fluoride then talk about fluoride.

4/16/2013 11:00:31 AM

Do people argue that it's not purchased from fertilizer companies? Is where it comes from really part of the issue?

[Edited on April 16, 2013 at 11:06 AM. Reason : ]

4/16/2013 11:01:28 AM

exactly

it's silly to keep posting that certificate. that's who produces it, so that's where they are going to buy it. no one is arguing that this doesn't take place.

when you purchase something like this, they supply that certificate to show the exact levels and confirm that it meets AWWA and NSF regulations. your certificate just confirms that it meets AWWA and NSF regulations.

4/16/2013 11:05:34 AM

lololol you are really asleep dude. Do you work for the city? You seem really invested in this.

Yes the city maintains that they are adding ionic fluoride to the water supply. This is not the case, and they even say so on their own website but somehow it escapes the "expert" panel they chose to testify. It is hydrofluorosilicic acid purchased from Pencco/Key Chemical who buys it without warranty or liability from MOSAIC, a division of Potash incorporated. This is a pretty distinct and important difference which exposes the deception itself. It isn't pharmaceutical grade fluoride being benevolently added to the water, it is literally a waste product disposed of illegally in our water supply.

[Edited on April 16, 2013 at 11:16 AM. Reason : addition]

4/16/2013 11:13:36 AM

its not a waste, its a product

and if they are trying to hide what they are adding, why are the certificates available on the internet and why did they give it to you?

4/16/2013 11:18:46 AM

The Mosaic Company is not a division of Potash Incorporated, by which I assume you mean Potash Corp, which is still a completely different company.

4/16/2013 11:20:04 AM

actually, scratch that. I have a better project.

If it's a waste, please provide the hazardous waste manifest. All hazardous waste has a manifest that makes a complete loop back the the waste generator, and those records most be kept. Please provide the waste manifest showing the City of Raleigh as the final TSDF facility. If it helps with your googling, CFR 49§172.01 has hydrofluorosilicic acid listed under "Flourosillicic acid, Hazard Class 8, UN1778, PG II, etc...

[Edited on April 16, 2013 at 11:35 AM. Reason : typo- 49 CFR not 40CFR]

4/16/2013 11:24:51 AM

Touche on MOSAIC, they manufacture potash. Potash corp provides the chemical for Raleigh, Mosaic provides the chemical for Durham.

In any case you can call it a product if that makes you feel better about it being added to your water.

4/16/2013 11:25:22 AM

could you support your claim that the city is trying to hide where it purchases this?

4/16/2013 11:26:57 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aRJlwrbAr4

4/16/2013 11:30:17 AM

so then no, you can't

4/16/2013 11:30:59 AM

You're such a joke dude. Do you work for the city?

4/16/2013 11:35:32 AM

nope, i just really dislike misinformation campaigns

4/16/2013 11:37:19 AM

You should come on Saturday then, and join us in exposing the 60 year misinformation campaign that has you believing drinking hydrofluorosilicic acid through your water will prevent cavities and not affect the rest of your body.

4/16/2013 11:40:54 AM

so your objections to the "systematic medication of our public drinking water" are that:

1. in your gut you know that 0.7ppm of flouride is dangerous because it's dangerous in studies at higher levels
2. the city is hiding where it purchases the product from even though it provides certificates on the internet and to people who ask for it


am i missing any others?

4/16/2013 11:43:27 AM

Quote :

"so when I present the alternative viewpoint it becomes quite painful information to consider"

This kills me, lol. Why do you assume it's painful? Why do you assume we don't have the capacity to understand?

Can you give us a little background on yourself so we can know who we are dealing with? Did you graduate college, do you have any personal experience dealing with chemistry/biology?

I think NdGT said it best.....

"The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it."

4/16/2013 11:51:09 AM

Quote :

""The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.""

except when science changes its mind

which is why i don't agree with ingesting a chemical that isn't necessary to ingest.

toothpaste has fluoride. make your kids brush their teeth twice a day and they won't get cavities.

will someone address this point i've made over and over??

4/16/2013 11:58:15 AM

Quote :

" This kills me, lol. Why do you assume it's painful? Why do you assume we don't have the capacity to understand? Can you give us a little background on yourself so we can know who we are dealing with? Did you graduate college, do you have any personal experience dealing with chemistry/biology? I think NdGT said it best..... "The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.""

The pain is expressed quite clearly through the manner in which many people respond to my position. If it were not so painful, they would be asking questions of me to understand where I was coming from instead of labeling me a conspiracy theorist, a nut ball, or using emotionally driven tactics as you have prior to make ME out to be someone who doesn't care for the children. This is all defensive psychology used to maintain your current view of the subject which was likely formulated by indoctrination and not an open minded approach to investigative research & cross referencing of evidence.

Alternative views on a subject which in the public's mind has already been made for them is intrinsically painful the same way it is painful to do a new exercise the first time. Like I have said many times, many of you respond with an intent to reply rather than an intent to understand and so it does seem painful for you to address someone who has come to a seemingly radical conclusion like I have.

Further - i don't use my diploma or credentials to establish authority, as it is this relegation of authority to other more so-called "wise" groups which has kept us fluoridated for so many decades. If everyone realized you don't need a diploma, or certificate to hold a position on a subject you have researched then the decision itself would not be made within the onion of government bureaucracy as it is. Bare minimum as a human being, paying customer of the water utility, and citizen of this country I don't need jack in terms of "credentials" to demand our government stop violating my right to informed consent. Period.

4/16/2013 12:01:05 PM

Quote :

"toothpaste has fluoride. make your kids brush their teeth twice a day and they won't get cavities. will someone address this point i've made over and over??"

I didn't address it because I think it's a pretty ignorant thing to say, given there are something like 20 million kids in the US that don't even get daily food.

I get where you are coming from, it's difficult to fathom that there are parents out there that can't afford toothpaste for their kids, but it's a reality we live in.

4/16/2013 12:02:10 PM

^^^point taken.

i think a crusade against this is silly, because I really don't think it's a threat, and believe it's more beneficial than dangerous...

however, I wouldn't be too upset if they stopped putting it in the water. but as ^ mentions, i think it's primarily for kids who for whatever reason (poverty, shitty parents) have poor dental hygiene.

[Edited on April 16, 2013 at 12:07 PM. Reason : ]

4/16/2013 12:05:07 PM

I understand your argument 100%, it's not really complex.

Quote :

"violating my right to informed consent"

Even if you think you are informed, you can still make the wrong decision. You keep saying that is what we have done all of our lives, because we don't know any better.

That's just wrong and baseless. You are making a HUGE assumption about me and my history, and you just might be wrong.

Fluoride in the municipal water system provides a service to kids who would never otherwise see a dentist. If people outside of that group have to deal with cosmetic side effects, then that's an acceptable exchange.

4/16/2013 12:07:09 PM

Quote :

"don't need a diploma, or certificate to hold a position on a subject you have researched then the decision itself would not be made within the onion of government bureaucracy as it is. "

it's important to have a relevant background and pertinent knowledge when you are using studies that conclude one thing to support a different conclusion, which is what you have been doing. you also don't want to relegate authority to "wise" groups but you are relegating yours to the questionable websites that you are posting.

4/16/2013 12:07:10 PM

I was just reading about your interview with COBRA and thought it was really cool you got to talk with him. Just had some questions about the following information:

Quote :

"Resistance Movement.This is a group of freedom fighters who live in subterranean dwellings in the upper part of Earth’s crust. They have a constant physical contact with underground Pleiadian bases in Himalaya and under Bora-Bora island. Their official public contact is Cobra. With assistance from the Confederation, they have cleared all remaining Reptilian forces from this solar system. Shortly after the year 2000 they have also cleared all subterranean Reptilian bases in severe battles."

http://lucas2012infos.wordpress.com/2012/06/20/corey-sturmer-the-golden-rule-exclusive-discussion-with-cobra-on-gold-and-its-place-in-human-history-20-june-2012/

My question is whether the fluoride in our water has anything to do with the Reptilian forces. Like, maybe they were adding it to the water supply form their underground lairs? And the government said they were adding the fluoride as a part of the massive Reptile coverup, but now that the Confederation has cleared out all fo the subterranean Reptilian bases, they have to actually add it to the water so nobody knows what's up.

Sorry if that sounds crazy, I'm just trying to use my axiomatic thinking skills so I can discuss the matter intelligently.

4/16/2013 12:08:49 PM

Quote :

"If it were not so painful, they would be asking questions of me to understand where I was coming from instead of labeling me a conspiracy theorist, a nut ball,"

I started off asking questions trying to figure out exactly where you were coming from before i decided that you were a conspiracy theorist who isn't an expert on the subject, but you've made up your mind and refuse to listen to anything contrary to your ideas, and you're devoting a lot of effort to a silly cause.

[Edited on April 16, 2013 at 12:15 PM. Reason : ]

4/16/2013 12:09:30 PM

Corey's background is film studies although he once made an island of plastic bottles in Parkwood Lake

4/16/2013 12:13:02 PM

Quote :

"My question is whether the fluoride in our water has anything to do with the Reptilian forces. Like, maybe they were adding it to the water supply form their underground lairs? And the government said they were adding the fluoride as a part of the massive Reptile coverup, but now that the Confederation has cleared out all fo the subterranean Reptilian bases, they have to actually add it to the water so nobody knows what's up. Sorry if that sounds crazy, I'm just trying to use my axiomatic thinking skills so I can discuss the matter intelligently."

Because this is exactly what I have suggested. Did you listen to the whole interview? Rather interesting what COBRA had to say about the influence of Gold on our human history but those are all his words - not mine. I guess guilt by association for interviewing someone is enough to justify the medication added to the water.

Again - character assassinations indicative of the narrow linear thought process plaguing virtually everyone here. It's interesting how this is made about ME when there are clearly thousands of other people also speaking out on this issue. Nobody seems to care what the government does against their own will which is a sad commentary on the sovereignty you all falsely believe you have.

4/16/2013 12:24:20 PM

Quote :

" labeling me a conspiracy theorist, a nut ball"

call a spade a spade.

4/16/2013 12:26:43 PM

wait, that COBRA quote is real? I assumed the poster was making a joke about GI Joe.

4/16/2013 12:29:51 PM

Quote :

"Fluoride in the municipal water system provides a service to kids who would never otherwise see a dentist. If people outside of that group have to deal with cosmetic side effects, then that's an acceptable exchange."

With all due respect, fuck you.

Seriously, who are you to make that call? I'm appalled that you acknowledge that are real side effects and you're willing to write it off as "worth it", even in an age where toothpaste is ridiculously cheap and could easily be provided for free by the city.

[Edited on April 16, 2013 at 12:37 PM. Reason : ]

4/16/2013 12:31:51 PM

dtownral's background is sitting behind a keyboard, because he is too much a coward to show is opinions with his public face like me and will back down from a challenge to a Skype debate on this subject he cares so much about.

4/16/2013 12:38:59 PM

Quote :

"Again - character assassinations indicative of the narrow linear thought process plaguing virtually everyone here. It's interesting how this is made about ME when there are clearly thousands of other people also speaking out on this issue."

well you are posting your own conclusions to studies that do not make the same conclusion, so your background is relevant. why are you an authority to conclude that 0.7ppm is dangerous because a higher dosage is?

4/16/2013 12:39:18 PM

will you answer my questions on skype or continue to ignore them like you are here? can i modulate my voice and skype from my secret underground lair like COBRA?

4/16/2013 12:45:40 PM

The best argument I've ever heard against fluoride use in drinking water: It infringes on your freedom of religion


follow me here:

Fluoride is known to calcify the pineal gland, otherwise known as the "third eye" to all the metaphysical new-age folks. You make the argument that you are not able to reach a full meditative state due to the calcification of your third eye. Thus the drinking water is inhibiting you from practicing your religion.

[Edited on April 16, 2013 at 12:48 PM. Reason : run it up the flagpole and see who salutes]

4/16/2013 12:47:39 PM

dtownral,

If you had the huevos to show up on a Skype debate, I would gladly answer all your questions

4/16/2013 12:49:32 PM

Quote :

"I'm appalled that you acknowledge that are real side effects and you're willing to write it off as "worth it""

Every single medical treatment has side effects, even tylenol and motrin.

You agree to them because the benefits outweigh the negatives. I never once claimed there were no side effects from fluoride, but the side effects are acceptable given the overall benefit.

Are you never going to get an x-ray again? CT Scan? The impact of one of those is much greater than the impact of fluoride in water.

4/16/2013 12:50:01 PM

Quote :

"dtownral, If you had the huevos to show up on a Skype debate, I would gladly answer all your questions"

so what's your reason for not answering them here, do you not have the "huevos"?

4/16/2013 12:53:07 PM

Fuck you guys. I've been buying fluoride wafers & dipping them in my water for years

4/16/2013 12:56:16 PM

Quote :

"Every single medical treatment has side effects, even tylenol and motrin. You agree to them because the benefits outweigh the negatives. I never once claimed there were no side effects from fluoride, but the side effects are acceptable given the overall benefit. Are you never going to get an x-ray again? CT Scan? The impact of one of those is much greater than the impact of fluoride in water."

The difference is that Tylenol and Motrin aren't being put into the water. It's up to me if I want to take a risk and use those products or services. The people that don't even know about this process (like me until less than a week ago) aren't able to make an informed decision.

[Edited on April 16, 2013 at 1:01 PM. Reason : ]

4/16/2013 1:00:24 PM

Quote :

"but the side effects are acceptable given the overall benefit."

Most of the developed world disagrees with you.

Quote :

"You agree to them"

I never agreed to be to be medicated through the water supply, where dosage is not individually controlled.

4/16/2013 1:00:42 PM

So back to what I said earlier, and you called it a red herring.

The real argument here is not about fluoride, it's about it being forced on you. Is that correct?

4/16/2013 1:03:03 PM

Quote :

"Every single medical treatment has side effects, even tylenol and motrin. You agree to them because the benefits outweigh the negatives. I never once claimed there were no side effects from fluoride, but the side effects are acceptable given the overall benefit. Are you never going to get an x-ray again? CT Scan? The impact of one of those is much greater than the impact of fluoride in water."

I have the choice to take those medications or not. The city forces all of us to take medication for the alleged benefit of our teeth, whether we need the medication or not. How do city officials have the power to prescribe medicine to us THROUGH THE WATER SUPPLY?

Why stop at the teeth? Why not add lithium to keep us all niiiiice and sedate?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/shortcuts/2011/dec/05/should-we-put-lithium-in-water

4/16/2013 1:03:30 PM

nobody is forcing you to drink city water. if you feel so strongly about it, buy an alternative.

4/16/2013 1:05:03 PM

Or install a filter that removes it, there is your choice.

Unless you hate poor kids, move on.

4/16/2013 1:06:47 PM