Lorenzo is ranked higher than Teague was in high school, and based on their film, Lorenzo is a better basketball player. (teague had a quicker first step, but brown plays more under control....they both play good D)

1/15/2009 1:32:00 PM

Quote :

"As usual, you're exaggerating, making things up, whatever."

Oh yes, I am the one making things up. I am the one that predicted 5-11 not 9-7 this year in ACC play.

Brown may be listed as a PG, but that's only because that is what he is playing now in HS. I'm just saying don't count on him to come in and be great off the start.

1/15/2009 1:34:09 PM

what the fuck does that mean man?


he plays point guard, he's listed as a point guard, but he's not a point guard?


seriously....you're smarter than that

[Edited on January 15, 2009 at 1:37 PM. Reason : ]

1/15/2009 1:37:13 PM

Quote :

"Name one coach who can coach a player to magically teleport the basketball from the inbound into the hands of the bigs. Because that's the only way we're gonna be able to work around our deficiencies with your logic."

Hand Fells the ball and tell him to go up the court with it. Problem solved; he's capable of doing it.

Last I checked, part of a coach's job was to develop talent, yet somehow the guy who was our starting point guard last year has done nothing except regress this year along with almost everyone else on the team.

The hallmark of a great (or even good) coach is the ability to make their players better or compensate for their weaknesses.

[Edited on January 15, 2009 at 1:40 PM. Reason : .]

1/15/2009 1:37:45 PM

Quote :

"he plays point guard, he's listed as a point guard, but he's not a point guard? "

It means he is not a true point guard....he's being forced to play it.

I mean we had a 6'3" center on my high school team but that doesn't mean he is a college center.

1/15/2009 1:38:50 PM

It means he is playing the 1, but he is a combo guard more suited in a perfect world to be a 2 AT THE COLLEGE LEVEL. Nearly every report I've read as stated that he has good vision but his decision making needs to improve.

And I'm not trying to shit on Brown. I just don't think he is going to come in and perform at the 1 like you guys are predicting. I can already see it; Brown is forced in to action to play the 1 going in to ACC play next year and he gets shit on and cursed at by the entire fanbase because he isn't ready to play that position at the high-major level yet.

*** And I'm not sure what you're trying to say with Teague? He was always a pure 1 (whose shot is good enough to draw people out) from what I remember and he has developed his all around game a lot since he began at Wake... Saying Brown is already better than one of the Top 3 PG's in the country is just an exaggeration (unless you messed up your tenses). I don't know what to make of it...

[Edited on January 15, 2009 at 1:43 PM. Reason : at the college level]

1/15/2009 1:41:37 PM

^^thats the stupidest thing I've ever seen you post.



The dude has played point guard for his entire career for his high school and AAU teams, but he's more of a scorer so they call him a "combo guard".


Plus, Dave Telep just posted on the scout board that he's playing the best basketball of his career this season at point....and that in the long run we may rather have wall playing point and Brown playing 2, but he's perfectly capable of handling the PG duties in college.


Now where out of all that do you get that he's just another high school kid playing out of position? Thats not even close to the same concept as a 6'3" kid playing center in high school just because he's the biggest kid on the team.


^I'm saying that comparing the two on the high school level, Brown is better than Teague was at the same stage. Teague is the best guard in the league right now, there's no way in hell i'd try to say that Brown is better than Teague at this point.

And I'm not saying Brown is the savior. I'm saying that he's a great step in the right direction...lets wait and see what happens instead of bitching constantly like everyone likes to do.

[Edited on January 15, 2009 at 1:44 PM. Reason : ]

1/15/2009 1:42:26 PM

http://scouthoops.scout.com/a.z?s=75&p=8&c=1&nid=2430536

Pos: SG

AREAS FOR IMPROVEMENT: Decision Making, Defensive Presence

Those are the main two areas our current guards suck....they need to play D too.

1/15/2009 1:50:12 PM

Have you been following Lorenzo's season so far? The season where even Telep agrees that he's putting some of the questions about his intensity and decision making to rest? The season that he's playing himself back into the McD's all american game?


the quote from a while back was something along the lines of:

"he's so good he has the tendency to coast sometimes..."


Or did you read about his Glaxo tournament? Where his steals on 4 straight posessions helped open a huge lead against Ravenscroft for the tournament victory? Or games where he's had 5, 6, 7 steals?

And don't forget that he was a top 15 player at one point last year...then dropped in rankings b/c he missed half of the AAU season and played the other half with a knee injury

[Edited on January 15, 2009 at 1:56 PM. Reason : sorry for all the edits]

1/15/2009 1:51:57 PM

Double post:


I probaably shouldn't post this but its been written in other places... here is the observation from the GSK tournament:


Both teams played well in the first half, with each's star producing. Ravenscroft big man Ryan Kelly was too much for Centennial in the post, and Lorenzo Brown slashed and cut his way to 14 first-half points.

However, it would be Brown who took over the game in a big-time third quarter. Centennial outscored Ravenscroft by 10 in the quarter to seize control, with Brown having steals on four-straight possessions that resulted in Centennial baskets. The defensive intensity Brown and the Centennial guards bring to the table is impressive.

“I never have to worry about Lorenzo,” said Centennial head coach Allen Whitehart. “I’ve coached him in numerous big games, and he always brings his ‘A’ game when a big game comes. He’s just a big-game player and a phenomenal, phenomenal teammate.”

1/15/2009 2:00:53 PM

still credible

1/15/2009 2:12:01 PM

Quote :

"Hand Fells the ball and tell him to go up the court with it. Problem solved; he's capable of doing it."

you must have been that idiot that called into the coaches show this week.
why in the fuck would anyone want Fells bringing the ball up? Just like Sidney said...He knows more about our personnel than you do"

Fells bringing the ball would be about as good idea as Grant playing point last year.
hell, why not let Brandon bring the ball up then?

get out of here with that mess!

To piggy back on wolfAApack's double post (please use edit post when time is allowed)
Telep even said not that long ago that we shouldnt even worry about Wall with the skill LoBrown possesses. Telep knows a hell of a lot more about these kids and how their games will transfer to college

1/15/2009 2:30:16 PM

gunzz = correct

1/15/2009 2:36:58 PM

gunzz=still credible

1/15/2009 2:38:04 PM

sorry i was onto a different thought and I edited the OP about 5 times in the first place.

1/15/2009 2:48:34 PM

Quote :

"But based on what?"

I realize chances don't look good for us to be a tourney team next year (without wall), but I still think we will be. I'm holding out hope that it's still a he-needs-his-own players situation, and that sidney lowe has just been having a really tough time trying to manage his current crop of pussbags (I know a great coach would be able to overcome these management problems; that's not the point.) Mccauley, costner, and fells are some of the softest, most puzzling players i've ever seen, and I won't be too sad to see them go. I sort of want to see costner stay because he can be so good, but another part of me wants to see him leave so that we don't have to deal with that headcase. I'm thinking he won't provide the leadership that he's expected to. We may be better off to just start anew.

I think next year with nearly all his own players, chemistry will be much better and the shooting and ball handling will be there. I imagine a passionate, scrappy team, but one that makes a lot of mistakes- enough to keep us a bubble team the whole year. But we'll be solid enough by the end of the year to make the big dance. I think-- I hope--- we will actually be running the floor finally too.

It's all a long shot I know. But I made the call and am going to hope it comes true. I'm not gonna back off just because things aren't looking too bright! Come on pack prove me right!

[Edited on January 15, 2009 at 3:16 PM. Reason : ]

1/15/2009 3:14:34 PM

Quote :

"but if you look at his numbers he reminds me an awful lot of Courtney Fells in H.S. Shockingly similar numbers across the boards (points, assists and rebounds nearly identical)."

for what it's worth, he's doing this in atlanta instead of mississippi.

1/15/2009 3:39:52 PM

Alright, so my last post was dripping with factual errors and childish cursing. All typical of TWW, but yeah it was silly. Time for my own reset:

It's never been my intent to sound like a "Sidney Lowe homer," b/c I'm not. I feel that, in defending Lowe from more juvenile attacks, I've ignored the fair criticisms of a select few of you. And honestly, I'm well aware of said criticisms, but I don't think at this point that they warrant Lowe's dismissal.

To start tho, yes the Mays-Williams class was not as good as last year's. Pwnt taken

Also, the Coach K example is just that, an example. His initial success, or relative lack therof, is to me an example of how tough it is starting out at one of the Triangle schools when the other two were/are firing on all cylinders. How applicable this example is... well that's for you all to decide.

Let me be clear. I'm am NOT happy with the product on the floor. State has been embarrassingly bad since last year. While some of it is directly attributable to Lowe's slow start in recruiting, in the end longterm struggles with the fundamentals reflects VERY poorly on the coach. Overall I think that yes, there is plenty of evifence suggesting Lowe is a poor coach.

However, there is also another way to explain State's lack of success in the past year and a half. First of course is the talent gap. Yes, State did have talent when Lowe came in, but they had no depth, especially at the point. Honestly if you haven't conceeded this point, then you need toreread several good posts on the subject. Baring that, your just being stupid.

Then there's the need for Lowe to spend a few years establishing himself on the recruiting trail, which is no small task.

Finally, there's the possibility that the issues with fundamentals fall not on Lowe's shoulders, but instead on the players themselves. That seems to be plausible given the info I've read from reports on practices and in the lockerroom.

So which is correct? IMO, it's too early to say with much certainty. Truly I think another year will be needed at a bare minimum in order to make an accurate judgment. By then Lowe will be left primarily with his recruits. Only then will we see how he fairs on his own two feet.

Additionally, I do NOT believe Lowe's accolades as a player grant him a free pass from criticism or getting fired. What I meant is that State had better be VERY careful in how it handles Lowe's tenure. Why?

State already has a bad rap for being too "demanding" (to put it kindly). Now add in the fact that State fans effectively ran the previous coach Herb out of town despite his success (arguably - 5.NCAA tourney bids looks rather good). Now ask yourself: What coach in their right mind would come to State if we run a guy like Lowe out of town without giving him a fair shot?

Remember, this is a guy which bleeds Wolfpack Red. That sort of passion is hard to come by, and shouldn't be cast aside carelessly. This is also a guy who had no college coaching experience (don't forget recruiting, which is exceptionally important in determining success at the college level). I'm not saying Lowe should get a free pass b/c of this. I AM saying that I think it's wrong to hire an inexperienced yet talented head coach only to fire him for not having immediate success. If you hire a guy in spite of his inexperience, you don't fire him prematuraly b/c of it. IMO Lowe should get a full 4 years in order work through any early mistakes.

Finally, like it or not, Lowe is a link to the past. Just ask a Wolfpack fan who was around back in 1983 what Sidney Lowe, Jimmy V, and the rest of the guys who inspired the phrase "March Madness" mean to them and to NC State. True Sidney could be called a "feel-good hire," but there's a very good reason for that. For a college bball program that's fallen on hard times, Sidney Lowe reminds us all of where NC State has been, and what it can be again.

NC State has seen it's once great rivalries on Tobacco Road diminished on the national scene. State has been slow to recover after the scandal and sanctions in the early 90's. More significantly, State has large, passionate fanbase that's already run a respectable coach out of town. It's clear that any bball coach a( State faces an incredibly daunting task of tackling very stiff competition while trying to please said passionate fanbase.

In short, I ask everyone here to take a step back and admit one thing: that the NC state bball coach has one tough fucking job to do, and that finding someone both qualified AND willing to do it is a damned tall order indeed.

The bottom line when you add it all up is that, on whether Lowe is the right man for the job, the jury is still out. Ultimately either Lowe or the players or both will take the blame for the poor play we've seen recently. However, until it's clear that Lowe is the problem, and that he is in fact a bad coach who has just gotten lucky on a few key recruits, AND that State is truly better off rolling the dice with someone else...

Give the guy a break...

1/15/2009 3:55:33 PM

^ well put...

1/15/2009 4:01:53 PM

great post erios...I feel the same way. I disagree that 4 years is sufficient, but on the other hand I think 5 years to get us back to the NCAA's is plenty (not a whole lot of difference there).


I think the criticism can start if we're not competitive next year, and a decision needs to be made if we're not in the tournament after 5 years. Until then though, I really just want people to keep their mouths shut so we can avoid prolonging the process by firing him. I get a sinking feeling when I think about what would happen if we fired him before he's had his 5 years with regard to recruiting. We'll be so far behind we may actually never catch up.

1/15/2009 4:33:31 PM

^^^

Quote :

"PLENTY OF EVIFENCE"

1/15/2009 4:35:29 PM

I was going to start a new thread, but I decided against it. so let me pose a question in here:

Does anybody think we are better off right now than we were 4 years ago?

1/15/2009 4:38:35 PM

^i do.

1/15/2009 4:40:05 PM

always the optimist

1/15/2009 4:40:56 PM

it doesn't fucking matter if we're better off now or not

1/15/2009 4:43:09 PM

we have forward momentum now

1/15/2009 4:44:08 PM

let me rephrase the question then:

Regarding the state of NCSU basketball, are you happier now than you were 4 years ago?

1/15/2009 4:45:11 PM

Yes, I feel like there is hope.

1/15/2009 4:47:27 PM

Fun fact:

Four years ago today, we were 14-2, 3-1 in conference, coming off a win at home against GT. The two losses were to Iowa in the ACC/B10 challenge (the worst basketball game ever played) and to Carolina in Raleigh by 13 points.

1/15/2009 4:51:09 PM

Quote :

"we have forward momentum now"

I'm not so certain you really understand what that means. Forward momentum is generally preceded by some type of successes, even marginal ones. We haven't beaten a team with a RPI ranking higher than 155 and just lost out on a major recruit.

Here is a good article that might explain it better

http://www.boston.com/sports/colleges/football/articles/2009/01/02/ganz_gives_cornhuskers_forward_momentum/

*** Can we count a loss to Duke in two games as forward momentum? It will raise our RPI since it will be a road loss.

[Edited on January 15, 2009 at 4:56 PM. Reason : x]

1/15/2009 4:54:02 PM

Quote :

"Iowa in the ACC/B10 challenge (the worst basketball game ever played)"

lol. I bring this game up all the time when I need a good laugh

1/15/2009 4:57:05 PM

The funny thing is that Iowa actually won the Big 10 that year... which is scary.

1/15/2009 4:57:38 PM

^^ damn, that was a bad game. remember it like it was yesterday. but all in all, it wasn't a bad loss considering it was @ Iowa and they finished the season 25-8 (14-5)

1/15/2009 4:57:55 PM

the thing about four years ago is you knew exactly what was coming. a mediocre season followed by a win or two in the tournament. i guess it's respectable, but it's not at all fun.

now being the worst team in the acc is also not fun.

1/15/2009 4:58:02 PM

20-win seasons are not mediocre

Top 4 finishes in the ACC are not mediocre

1/15/2009 4:59:42 PM

i had a fucking blast going to the bars to watch State play in the tourney

loved every cotdamn minute of it...win or lose

1/15/2009 4:59:59 PM

^^

Quote :

"2006-2007 NC State 20-16 5-11 T-10th NIT Quarterfinals"

fucking definition of mediocre.

1/15/2009 5:00:54 PM

WE FUCKING GET IT

NC STATE FANS ARE FUCKING HORRIBLE

FIREHIRE HERB



we have made our bed, and now we must lie in it.

i had no problem with herb, but jesus fucking christ, i'm so tired of hearing about that motherfucker

1/15/2009 5:01:46 PM

^^ What?

That was two years ago and Lowe was the coach

[Edited on January 15, 2009 at 5:06 PM. Reason : ]

1/15/2009 5:02:00 PM

Quote :

"Iowa in the ACC/B10 challenge (the worst basketball game ever played)"

orly?

worse than the St. John's game?

1/15/2009 5:02:05 PM

if you don't like it, then you can GIT OUT!!!

1/15/2009 5:02:44 PM

Ernie, I know

what I was referring to is the 4 years ago statement

oh, you were talking to simonn, gotcha

[Edited on January 15, 2009 at 5:05 PM. Reason : .]

1/15/2009 5:05:06 PM

Quote :

"worse than the St. John's game?"

Yeah, way worse. Both teams sucked balls in the Iowa game, St. John's just drilled us.

[Edited on January 15, 2009 at 5:05 PM. Reason : ^ I was talking to simonn]

1/15/2009 5:05:17 PM

Quote :

"Four years ago today"

it was 3 years ago

[Edited on January 15, 2009 at 5:06 PM. Reason : .]

1/15/2009 5:05:31 PM

Quote :

"^^ What? That was two years ago and Lowe was the coach"

yeah but it was a 20 win season.

1/15/2009 5:07:11 PM

I'm pretty sure he meant regular seasons. If you take away the 3 ACCT wins and the 2 (or 3) NIT wins it's closer to the reality of the season.

1/15/2009 5:09:17 PM

Yeah, but it was a 15 win regular season where we finished in the basement of the conference; not really comparable to Herb winning 20 in the regular season and finishing near the top of the conference, which was my point.

1/15/2009 5:09:39 PM

This was the thing about 4 years ago.

Win or lose, it was like nobody had any fun anymore. I didn't mind Herb, but whenever we won a game, you'd go talk to you friend or what-have-you, and you couldn't talk about the game. It just went straight to Herb Sendek.

1/15/2009 5:19:16 PM

and here were are again with that shit.

even games we won by 20 this year led to this thread being bumped.

its just fucking rediculous

1/15/2009 5:33:22 PM

I'd say this is less a result of the actual current team and actual basketball games and more of nobody in North Carolina being able to mention the name Herb Sendek without it rapidly falling into teh same old shit. Old habits are hard to break, I 'spose.

1/15/2009 5:44:44 PM