So by that logic, Peyton Manning is a bad QB then huh?

10/15/2006 9:29:12 PM

not sure what logic you are talking about... true, Peyton has not won a superbowl yet, but he has MUCHHHHHH better career stats then Vick

10/15/2006 9:31:00 PM

I SAIDDDDD

if you say stats do not reflect how good a QB is, then what does, wins???? because hes not winning

Marino and Manning have the stats to show they are good QBs even if their teams didnt/dont win a ring


Vick doesnt have that luxury, to be considered a GREAT QB, or Golden God, he must either put up great #'s or win a SB.

10/15/2006 9:31:04 PM

Rally needs to hurry up and post so MacTuck will have something to use in his argument.

10/15/2006 9:33:46 PM

Quote :

"he played against a bad defense today, he got sacked numerous times(guess his legs failed him on those) and he had an average day as far as stats and output."

rather than wait on them, I'll make their posts for you.

he played against a bad defense today,
the falcons defense was also bad today

he got sacked numerous times(guess his legs failed him on those)
that's the o-line's fault

and he had an average day as far as stats and output.
all 13 of his incompletions, including the INT, were because of the receivers, and the four fumbles were because of the football


In other words, they lost - and it's everyone else's fault.

[Edited on October 15, 2006 at 9:35 PM. Reason : and quite frankly, all three of their rebuttals are stupid.]

10/15/2006 9:35:11 PM

vick couldn't avoid the pass rush today - he fumbled a second time that he was lucky to fall on

don't forget, half of his completions didn't come until they were already behind 27-14...before the final 3:45, vick was 7-18 for 76 yards...the giants were clearly in more of a prevent defense and allowed some longer completions, but sill pressured enough to sack vick once in the closing minutes and force a few scrambles

he wasn't even average today - he was just awful until the defense played to preserve a lead instead of dominate him like they did all day

10/15/2006 10:24:48 PM

Why does Vick take so many sacks? Its not like throwing the ball away is going to ruin his completion %.

10/16/2006 1:35:00 AM

^might actually help it.

10/16/2006 10:30:31 AM

16 (10) Falcons 3-2-0
At some point, the Falcons are going to need Michael Vick to win the game using his arm, not his legs. The question is, Can he?

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/powerranking?season=2006&week=7

10/17/2006 10:47:00 PM

no.

10/17/2006 10:54:05 PM

rally's logic would say that Rex Grossman led the Bears over the Cardinals on MNF

10/18/2006 10:38:14 AM

At some point the Falcons are going to need their defense to allow less than 260 rushing yards in a game.

The question is, can they?



Yeah tree my logic definitely suggests that having 6 turnovers and being incapable of moving the ball all game means that Rex Grossman played amazing. That's exactly the point ive been trying to make the past two years.

[Edited on October 18, 2006 at 10:55 AM. Reason : a]

10/18/2006 10:55:09 AM

point being, if Vick had done nothing to help his team win (a la Grossman versus the Cardinals), you would've still given him credit

ok maybe I'm stretching, but you love to give Vick credit for any ATL win, and then pull the "he can't do it by himself" card and blame his teammates when Atlanta loses a game

I would still like for you to comment on why the Falcons have never had back-to-back winning seasons in their franchise history...does that mean that Vick is overrated or he is injury prone? Either way...

10/18/2006 11:31:41 AM

... he is not a golden god!

am i right?

10/18/2006 12:07:38 PM

Maybe he meant to say 'Golden Fraud'. They do sound kinda similar.

10/18/2006 12:27:41 PM

yeah thats probably what he meant, im sure atlanta would think so everytime they have to sign over his paycheck

10/18/2006 12:37:02 PM

Quote :

"ok maybe I'm stretching, but you love to give Vick credit for any ATL win, and then pull the "he can't do it by himself" card and blame his teammates when Atlanta loses a game"

You're not stretching; I've probably said the same thing once per page now. He's never addressed it, and never will address it.

10/18/2006 1:22:11 PM

^Let's make it really easy for him.

Simply pick one of the following and stick with it:

a) Vick is so great that he overcomes the badness of his team to win (just over half) their games.

b) Vick plays poorly when his team is bad.

Point a) asserts that Vick's team is bad all the time, and this is what makes him a "golden god".

Point b) asserts that Vick's team must (somehow) not suck ALL the time, and as such MAY contribute to winning a game here and there. This also implies that his play is NOT good enough to overcome the badness of the team.

As you can see, these are conflicting viewpoints. To latch on to both is what we sometimes call a logical fallacy.

[Edited on October 18, 2006 at 2:53 PM. Reason : .]

10/18/2006 2:52:23 PM

1-8

=falcons record against the past 9 playoff teams they've played

gg vick

10/19/2006 11:48:21 AM

I love how Rallydurham always goes back to the 260 rushing yards allowed by the Falcons defense. Sure, 260 rushing yards allowed is terrible... but that doesn't have anything to do with the 14 points Atlanta was able to score. Half of the Falcons points came from a 90 yard touchdown run by Warrick Dunn. Vick led the Falcons to 1 legitimate scoring drive in the game. I guess that's the defense's fault, not the quarterback's(even though Vick isn't even a real quarterback) fault. By the way... this terrible Falcons defense you're talking shit about is ranking 5th in the NFL in points allowed per game. I can't wait to see how you're going to twist this.

10/19/2006 2:16:51 PM

Ya Michael Vick has one of the worst passer ratings in the NFL AGAIN this season. He has said time and time again that there is a new Vick emerging, well when the hell is this going to happen? Nobody knows and Michael Vick will soon find himself a second stringer as his age wears at the legs.

MIKE VICK = Terrible

10/19/2006 3:51:53 PM

Quote :

"Sure, 260 rushing yards allowed is terrible... but that doesn't have anything to do with the 14 points Atlanta was able to score."

Technically it keeps Vick on the sidelines with fewer possessions. In reality...Vick had a pretty shitty game. But who's to know what he would have done with a couple more possessions?? Probably fumble again, throw an INT, or get sacked 7 more times.

10/19/2006 4:35:48 PM

What's the easiest way of ending a thread...I am tired of this Mike Vick crap polluting TWW

10/19/2006 4:36:58 PM

^a season ending injury

10/19/2006 4:45:41 PM

No, because then we get to hear about how a relatively stationary QB can't win in the same system used for Vick, and that he is still a Golden God because of some other guy's lack of success.

10/19/2006 6:59:45 PM

matt schaub is an upgrade

10/19/2006 7:42:54 PM

THE GIANTS ARE JUST TOO DAMNED GOOD

10/19/2006 7:54:28 PM

Quote :

"Technically it keeps Vick on the sidelines with fewer possessions. In reality...Vick had a pretty shitty game. But who's to know what he would have done with a couple more possessions??"

The Giants and the Falcons each had 12 possessions. FYI: The Chargers scored 48 points on 11 possessions last week.

[Edited on October 20, 2006 at 4:10 AM. Reason : .]

10/20/2006 4:09:38 AM

haha way to throw your receivers under the bus

vick said he always wonders what it would be like to be able to throw to a randy moss, marvin harrison, chad johnson, etc.

10/20/2006 11:52:24 AM

Quote :

"The Atlanta Falcons are averaging 234 rushing yards per game. They are on pace to break the NFL record for most rushing yards in a season by nearly 600 yards. Despite this record-breaking pace, the Falcons rank 24th in the league in scoring, averaging just over 16 points per game. The big reason Atlanta is struggling to score is the ineptitude of its passing game. One would think that all of this rushing success would open up the aerial attack for the Falcons, but that simply isn't the case. Michael Vick has a passer rating of 66.0 and is completing barely 50 percent of his passes. Vick's metrics so far partially illustrate the Falcons' passing problems: Michael Vick Depth Att Comp Yds TD INT Pen P.Yds YPA Short 61 44 331 3 1 1 5 5.5 Medium 33 13 246 0 2 0 0 7.5 Deep 19 2 99 0 0 2 39 7.3 Total 113 59 676 3 3 3 44 6.4 The short pass yards per attempt is mediocre. The medium and deep pass metrics are simply abysmal, and would have ranked at or near the bottom of the league in 2005. His total yards per attempt is actually lower than Andrew Walter or Kerry Collins in that category. To be fair, it isn't solely Vick's fault that the medium and deep pass metrics are so bad. One of the metrics I track is how far downfield a receiver was when he dropped the pass. As the chart below shows, the Falcons' drops this year have been very damaging: Wide Receivers Depth Drops Yds YPA Short 6 26 5.9 Medium 8 107 10.7 Deep 5 148 15.1 Total 19 281 8.9 The column on the far right calculates what Vick's yards per attempt would be if his receivers had caught all of the dropped passes. Admittedly, no team will never go through a season without some dropped passes, and eight of the dropped passes were caused partially by Vick's inaccuracy. Even taking those factors into account, this chart does illustrate the inability of Atlanta's receivers to consistently hold on to vertical passes. Having said that, I am still amazed at how Vick is immune to criticism. His passer rating is lower than Daunte Culpepper's and Drew Bledsoe's, and is only slightly higher than Jake Plummer's. Culpepper has been benched. Both Bledsoe and Plummer have been on the hot seat all year, yet there is no mention of Vick's ever being benched. This is odd because backup Matt Schaub has more experience than either Tony Romo or Jay Cutler. Schaub is also a better fit for the West Coast offense that Falcons offensive coordinator Greg Knapp would like to run. The question I have is, what does Vick have to do before he receives some of the blame for this offensive drought? The Falcons have the best running game in the NFL and a Pro Bowl caliber tight end. They have invested No.1 draft picks at the wide receiver position two of the past three years, and they acquired one of the best vertical receiving threats in pro football in Ashley Lelie. Atlanta also has retooled the offense to take full advantage of Vick's running skills. The end result is a unit that has scored 14 points or less in three of its five games this year. When this much money, time and effort is invested in a player and the results are so mediocre, it is clear something is wrong and a change should be considered. If this offense doesn't start putting up some points soon, the Falcons should give Schaub a shot at kick-starting things before it is too late."

insider shit, by KC Joyner

10/20/2006 2:44:51 PM

What a well-written article. I'll just add one or two corrections since he made some oversights.

Quote :

"Despite this record-breaking pace, the Falcons rank 24th in the league in scoring"

It's not that odd for a good rushing team not to rank that high in scoring. Everyone knows you score faster by passing. Where does Denver rank in rushing and scoring?

Quote :

" To be fair, it isn't solely Vick's fault that the medium and deep pass metrics are so bad. One of the metrics I track is how far downfield a receiver was when he dropped the pass. As the chart below shows, the Falcons' drops this year have been very damaging"

Good point, looks like I wasnt making up the fact that they can not stop dropping passes. Also in the metric why doesn't it show how many long passes have drawn pass interference? 40 yard penalties should count for something I think.

Quote :

"this chart does illustrate the inability of Atlanta's receivers to consistently hold on to vertical passes."

Bing!

Quote :

"what does Vick have to do before he receives some of the blame for this offensive drought? The Falcons have the best running game in the NFL"

Um, the Falcons running game is the best in the NFL BECAUSE of Vick. This is ridiculous. You can't just say "Peyton Manning is leading one of the best passing offenses so why isn't he being criticized for the fact that they don't have more passing yards?"

It's stupid. You subtract Vick from the rushing totals and the Falcons aren't the best rushing offense in the league, period.

Quote :

"They have invested No.1 draft picks at the wide receiver position two of the past three years"

TIMEOUT! This is just absurd. Who did they get? Was it Braylon Edwards, Keyshawn Johnson, Marvin Harrison?

No, they traded a #1 pick for Peerless Price. The same Peerless Price who is 2nd string for the fucking Buffalo Bills. Wow, what a stud!

Who else did they draft... Michael Jenkins? Wow they used like the #28 pick in the draft. What a fucking stud. He's competent but he's probably the worst #1 WR in the league and WR's nearly ALWAYS take ~3-4 years to learn the position.

Quote :

"they acquired one of the best vertical receiving threats in pro football in Ashley Lelie"

This sentence should read "they acquired the perennially underachieving WR that the Denver Broncos were tired of waiting on to become a viable NFL starter"

Quote :

"The end result is a unit that has scored 14 points or less in three of its five games this year."

Crumpler has dropped what, 3 TD passes? How many FG's has that Koenen guy missed? How much time of possession did the Giants have last week?

Quote :

"the Falcons should give Schaub a shot at kick-starting things before it is too late."

Yep, they should bench one of the top QB's in the league for the winless Matt Schaub. The guy who has pretty much done nothing in his 3-4 opportunities to play thus far.


Yes, Vick's passing numbers have been less than stellar so far but its clear that he's not playing that badly. His sensational rushing stats go a long way toward inflating his passing stats.

Let's say he goes 15/30 for 160 yards and 1 TD, 1 INT...... adn thne rushes 8 times for 60 yards and 1 TD...

if those numbers said 23/38 for 220 yards and 2 TD, 1 INT then no one would be arguing that Vick is the reason they aren't winning. They'd be pointing at the defense like they should be doing in the first place. ANd since rushing yards are a little more valuable than passing yards, those numbers are conservative.

Is Vick really being blamed for Atlanta having a FG and a punt blocked against New Orleans in one of the most emotionally lopsided games in the history of the NFL?

[Edited on October 20, 2006 at 7:39 PM. Reason : a]

10/20/2006 7:37:48 PM

schaub has pretty much done nothing?

he threw for 298 yards and 3 TD's (no INT's) against the patriots in 2005

how many times has vick thrown for 3 TD's? oh that's right, never. since vick has come into the league, he has never once thrown more than 2 TD's in a game. schaub steps in and does it against the patriots in the limited time he gets as the starter, and that's nothing?

if they taught vick how to catch and used him as a rb/wr that threw a few times a game, they'd be a better team. schaub is a real qb. vick has yet to prove that.

10/20/2006 8:10:54 PM

The Pats had one of the worst pass defenses in the league last year.

Their entire secondary was injured.

And the Falcons lost that game, remember?


They also lost the two games where Vick was rested during the 13-3 season when Schaub was used at QB.

Vick doesn't throw for a lot of yards or TD's we've established that.

He's a DUAL THREAT QB.

Peyton Manning went three years without a rushing TD but no one uses that against him.



The reason that Vick starts over Schaub is because he gives them a better chance to WIN.

If all that mattered was passing yards then maybe they'd start Schaub.

10/20/2006 9:34:59 PM

^^^

Quote :

"still amazed at how Vick is immune to criticism"

Quote :

"The question I have is, what does Vick have to do before he receives some of the blame for this offensive drought?"

Quote :

"eight of the dropped passes were caused partially by Vick's inaccuracy."

Quote :

"Michael Vick has a passer rating of 66.0 and is completing barely 50 percent of his passes."

10/21/2006 12:17:58 AM

i just want to clarify something

when you say vick is a "dual threat" qb, what exactly do you mean? i mean i get that he's a threat as a runner, but what's the other threat? am i missing something?

10/21/2006 1:22:55 AM

Quote :

"i just want to clarify something when you say vick is a "dual threat" qb, what exactly do you mean? i mean i get that he's a threat as a runner, but what's the other threat? am i missing something? "

10/21/2006 1:26:49 PM

handing off

10/21/2006 2:45:01 PM

ahahaha from ESPN SportsNation's fan interview with Rams RB Steven Jackson


Joe K. (Auburn, MA): Best video game RB ever: you, Tecmo Bo Jackson or Michael Vick?

SportsNation Steven Jackson: Tecmo Bo Jackson.

10/22/2006 5:30:34 AM

Quote :

"i mean i get that he's a threat as a runner, but what's the other threat? am i missing something?"

herpes.

10/22/2006 5:51:43 AM

3 passing TDs for the golden god against Pitt

10/22/2006 2:22:43 PM

of course he decides to finally throw 3 TD's when he's playin my team

10/22/2006 2:22:57 PM

Quote :

"how many times has vick thrown for 3 TD's? oh that's right, never. "

Well, consider the answer to that question changed.

10/22/2006 2:24:11 PM

this is only the first half, too

10/22/2006 2:24:34 PM

^^yep

and it only took him til his 6th NFL season to do it!

10/22/2006 2:26:02 PM

Rally's rubbin' one out somewhere.

10/22/2006 3:35:12 PM

Vick looks really, really good today. And is playing very smart.

10/22/2006 3:38:32 PM

definitely vick's best game ever

if he played half this good on a semi-regular basis, nobody would be arguing that vick isn't a great qb.

10/22/2006 3:39:46 PM

It is sad that Vick has never thrown for 3 or more TDs before today.

10/22/2006 3:51:00 PM

THE MAN JUST CAUGHT HIS OWN PASS

10/22/2006 4:03:10 PM

to be honest, the turnovers and Defense have helped him have a good day

if it wasnt for great field position he wouldnt have the 4tds

his yardage really isnt that good today for the amount of attempts and TDs but hey, 4 tds is NEVER a bad day.

10/22/2006 4:15:58 PM