Hey dude, if you're going to quote wikipedia, at least be bothered to read the entire article. kkthnx:

Quote :

"Socialism is not a concrete philosophy of fixed doctrine and program; its branches advocate a degree of social interventionism and economic rationalization, sometimes opposing each other. Another dividing feature of the socialist movement is the split between reformists and the revolutionaries on how a socialist economy should be established. Some socialists advocate complete nationalization of the means of production, distribution, and exchange; others advocate state control of capital within the framework of a market economy. Socialists inspired by the Soviet model of economic development have advocated the creation of centrally planned economies directed by a state that owns all the means of production. Others, including Yugoslavian, Hungarian, Polish and Chinese Communists in the 1970s and 1980s, instituted various forms of market socialism, combining co-operative and state ownership models with the free market exchange and free price system.[8] Social democrats propose selective nationalization of key national industries in mixed economies and tax-funded welfare programs and the regulation of markets. Libertarian socialism (including social anarchism and libertarian Marxism) rejects state control and ownership of the economy altogether and advocates direct collective ownership of the means of production via co-operative workers' councils and workplace democracy. "

Shocking that a broad philosophy would have many flavors. Find a group of reputable economists that will argue that the US isn't fundamentally a socialist country.

2/17/2009 1:18:49 PM

^^^^my Goddamned taxes pay for that shit, that's what.

Even if that's the case, you're proposing we become even more socialist? GREAT!

[Edited on February 17, 2009 at 1:26 PM. Reason : k]

[Edited on February 17, 2009 at 1:26 PM. Reason : damn i can't type today]

2/17/2009 1:25:15 PM

Coming up...
Supreme Court Overturns Judicial Review.

2/17/2009 1:26:02 PM

Quote :

"OK..perhaps he isn't a full-blown fascist in practice yet..just a rabid statist."

Dude

have you met you?

Compared to you everyone is a rabid statist.

2/17/2009 2:03:50 PM

^
Hah! They do seem to be everywhere, don't they

2/17/2009 4:53:05 PM

2/17/2009 11:40:13 PM

Al Capone:Tax Evasion::AIDS:Lesions

EVERYONE WITH LESIONS HAS AIDS

2/18/2009 2:12:53 AM

We all know Al Capone was arrested as part of a massive brewers conspiracy since he controlled the market for all booze in the midwest.

2/18/2009 2:57:15 AM

^^^

Tim Geithner -> Tax Evasion -> Treasury Secretary (calls for taxes)

George W. Bush -> War Evasion - > President (calls for war)

Hmm...

2/18/2009 6:13:35 AM

Quote :

"Coming up... Supreme Court Overturns Judicial Review."

I assume you're being facetious

2/20/2009 6:48:40 PM

Quote :

"Shocking that a broad philosophy would have many flavors. Find a group of reputable economists that will argue that the US isn't fundamentally a socialist country."

Can't believe you are really trying to argue this. You claimed that the government funding road construction, mass transit, and schools made it socialist. That is fundamentally retarded. The US may or may not be socialist, but most of the items on your little list have nothing to do with it. Oh and please, show me a group of respected economists that all agree we are a socialist country.

2/20/2009 7:07:19 PM

This thread is actually pointless. Obama hasn't demonstrated any credibility so far.

2/20/2009 10:20:23 PM

I think the middle of the road folks are going to start getting fed up with him real soon

2/20/2009 10:33:46 PM

I agree. They thought he would implement some common sense measures, but he's just paying back the far left and making a mess of an already bad situation. God knows what he'll try to pull once he gets his economic plans passed.

2/20/2009 10:38:27 PM

He is hitting the ground running, playing from the far left play book. I dont think the 92% of us that pay our mortgages and play by the rules are cool with paying for those who dont

2/20/2009 10:41:14 PM

He and his worshipers don't realize that yet, but when the buyer's remorse sets in, he's going to regret his stupid policies. The halfway intelligent people who had the poor judgment to vote for such a ridiculous candidate will probably regret their actions more, though you probably won't hear many admit it.

2/20/2009 10:44:29 PM

I hate to interrupt the above circle jerk, but...

Any effective bail-out plan needed to include something to stop the mortgage defaults. They're the heart of the problem. Fair or not, it's to everyone's benefit.

The faux capitalist populism coming from the people who seemingly had no problem bailing out equally culpable banks is laughable.

2/20/2009 11:13:22 PM

The banks and the bad mortgages need to go under. Propping them up with non-existent money that successful taxpayers will have to cough up someday plus interest won't solve the problem. If we are lucky, it will just delay paying the piper. It's not the government's responsibility or legal place to prop up bad business decisions. Maybe some people in Washington should read the Constitution.

2/20/2009 11:18:55 PM

The part about regulating interstate commerce?

2/20/2009 11:21:50 PM

Regulating interstate commerce does not mean a socialist president and congress trying to micromanage the economy. Government interference in economic matters has a long history of failure all over the world, but it's a way for politicians to gain power over the people. Economic freedom is easy to take from the public when people fall on hard times, but without it, it is hard for anyone to be independent.

2/20/2009 11:26:07 PM

Quote :

"Regulating interstate commerce does not mean a socialist president and congress trying to micromanage the economy."

Doesn't it? The Constitution certainly doesn't prohibit it.

Quote :

"Government interference in economic matters has a long history of failure all over the world"

The New Deal. And I've read the arguments on why the New Deal totally failed, and they're unconvincing.

Quote :

"but it's a way for politicians to gain power over the people"

Black helicopters are a much more efficient means to that end. That, and the Major League Baseball spy satellites.

2/20/2009 11:35:27 PM

The tax evasion was just an excuse to arrest Capone.

2/20/2009 11:36:03 PM

But we need some excuse to end Geithner's underground crime ring!

2/20/2009 11:40:15 PM

Quote :

"The faux capitalist populism coming from the people who seemingly had no problem bailing out equally culpable banks is laughable."

Do you just imagine your ideological opponents in your head, or something? Because I'd really, really like to know who you're talking about, here.

Go on. Name one person who regularly posts on this forum who fits this description.

[Edited on February 21, 2009 at 12:06 AM. Reason : .]

2/21/2009 12:06:24 AM

what about those of us who continue to pay our mortgage, on time, whose property values are going to be significantly impacted by all the buy out? do we get compensated too? when does it stop?

2/21/2009 3:54:29 PM

guess what?




















still credible

2/21/2009 3:57:08 PM

Quote :

"spending won't fix a recession. FDR tried it and prolonged the depression for years. Flooding the market with money that was just printed up without anything to back it just brings down the value of the currency."

First off all, flooding the market with money that was just printed up without anything to back it, is exactly how recessions have been ended.

This is virtually undisputed in economics and their is an entire branch of economic devoted to understanding the mechanics of doing this.

http://www.nber.org/programs/me/me.html


Second, however, this is not how the stimulus bill is designed. The stimulus issues debt, not money. Nor is there any reason to suppose that this debt burden, which pales in comparison to the burden built up during WWII will need to be monetized anymore than our WWII debt was monetized.

2/21/2009 5:46:47 PM

The idiot Obama now is touting meetings on "fiscal responsibility." How in the hell can he call for that when he just signed the biggest pork barrel spending bill in history and he's hinting that he wants more?

2/23/2009 7:16:28 PM

did you watch it? or read about it? i suspect not.

he preemptively responded to that very (fallacious) claim.


try to pay attention before parroting the same horseshit talking points.

[Edited on February 23, 2009 at 7:22 PM. Reason : .]

2/23/2009 7:19:58 PM

I apologise for having a life and not being glued to the computer. At least he's not trying to claim he's fiscally responsible though. Not even his sheep would believe that.

2/23/2009 7:23:27 PM

Quote :

"I apologise for having a life and not being glued to the computer. spouting off the same tired talking points without bothering to inform myself"

apology accepted

2/23/2009 7:25:23 PM

tired talking points? that has been the core of the whole Obama era so far.

2/23/2009 7:28:02 PM

did i manage to stutter over the internets?

2/23/2009 7:31:22 PM

apparently so.

2/23/2009 7:33:53 PM

2/23/2009 7:44:13 PM

Quote :

". Obama: "We cannot simply spend as we please and defer the consequences." "I refuse to leave our children with a debt that they cannot repay." Wall Street seemed unimpressed by all the talk. The Dow Jones industrials dropped 251 points for the day."

"Fiscal Responsibility Summit" It's like 1984 happening for real.

2/23/2009 7:57:23 PM

Don't you find it bizarre how Obama moans about the deficit he "inherited?" As if he were governor of Idaho the last four years?

2/23/2009 8:28:25 PM

^^ Then why is he doing exactly that?

2/23/2009 8:43:53 PM

Can we believe it?

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2009/02/dear-president.html

Quote :

"Every day President Barack Obama is handed a special purple folder. The folder contains ten letters, and every day President Obama takes time to read them. Are they from world leaders? From members of the Joint Chiefs of Staff? Members of the intelligence community? No, these letters have been culled from the thousands the White House Correspondence Office receives each day from Americans who have taken the time to sit down and write to their president. "They help him focus on the real problems people are facing," says Axelrod. "He really a absorbs these letters, and often shares then with us." In his first week in office, President Obama requested that he see 10 letters a day "representative of people's concerns, from people writing into the president," recalls Gibbs, "to help get him outside of the bubble, to get more than just the information you get as an elected official." Says Axelrod, "he did it because his greatest concern is getting isolated in the White House, away from the experiences of the American people...The letters impact him greatly.""

2/23/2009 10:43:23 PM

I would say yes. He's genuine enough to do this I think.

[Edited on February 23, 2009 at 10:50 PM. Reason : /]

2/23/2009 10:50:30 PM

If the letters are getting filtered through his staff, I don't see why he wouldn't.

I just hope he's reading good, intellectual, thought-provoking material instead of just sob-stories and extreme cases of misfortune crying "oh help me mighty government".

[Edited on February 23, 2009 at 11:01 PM. Reason : .]

2/23/2009 11:00:59 PM

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/feb/24/clooney-gets-white-house-promises-darfur/

2/25/2009 10:41:21 PM

GUESS WHAT















MORE CREDIBLE THAN EVER

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/02/24/speech.poll/index.html

2/25/2009 10:53:42 PM

"Viewers feel positive about Obama speech" != "MORE CREDIBLE THAN EVER"

ObamaCredability = ObamaCredability - 1;

Quote :

""The administration has assured me that Darfur is one of a small handful of foreign-policy reviews being undertaken at the [most senior] level," Mr. Clooney said."

Its good to know that Clooney's agenda is being taken care of.



[Edited on February 25, 2009 at 11:42 PM. Reason : -]

2/25/2009 11:36:23 PM

lol

keep telling yourself that, pumpkin

2/25/2009 11:39:24 PM

Quote :

"Sixty-eight percent of speech-watchers questioned in a CNN/Opinion Research Corp. survey said they had a very positive reaction, with 24 percent indicating that they had a somewhat positive response and 8 percent saying they had a negative reaction."

Quote :

"Eighty-five percent of those polled said the president's speech made them more optimistic about the direction of the country over the next few years"

Quote :

"Eighty-two percent of speech-watchers said they support the economic plan Obama outlined in his prime time address"

contrast that with Piyush's own party calling his "rebuttal" a sad sad outing

and you have more credibility than he's had since taking office

2/25/2009 11:44:05 PM

Quote :

"Don't you find it bizarre how Obama moans about the deficit he "inherited?" As if he were governor of Idaho the last four years?"

no! why would i? i would bitch about it also. the past 8 years have really put this country in a bind.

its real and not something he is making up. its not like Bush inherited this kind of debt...not like the

debt he left us with

2/26/2009 8:55:14 AM

Quote :

"contrast that with Piyush's own party calling his "rebuttal" a sad sad outing and you have more credibility than he's had since taking office"

1. The vast majority of US citizens didn't watch the speech. I would imagine that people who don't like Obama or his plans were overwhelming represented in those who didn't watch. Thus a poll of those who watched it doesn't tell you jack shit.

2. Credibility != popularity. The right actions, the actions that might work, may be unpopular in the short term. Some times the hard choices are those that aren't popular.

2/26/2009 10:58:45 AM

GUESS WHAT

Quote :

"CNN/Opinion Research Corp"

LESS CREDIBLE SOURCE THAN EVER

CNN...that bastion of objective news-gatherers.

2/26/2009 11:17:32 AM

OH GOD FAUX NEWS

2/26/2009 11:21:34 AM