Or maybe they want to be accepted for who they are, not who their parents imagine them to be?

Then again, I know better than to talk politics or religion with family. Like my great-grandfather used to say, "There's two things polite company doesn't discuss at the dinner table, politics and religion."

10/3/2009 8:25:38 AM

^ pretty damned selfish, IMO... Just live and let live. Its not like the kids in this thread are still 13yo angst ridden teenagers. They don't get a pass on stupid shit like that, "LET ME BE MYSELF MOM!!!"

But then again, atheists were never known for their selflessness. That's for damn sure.

[Edited on October 3, 2009 at 8:32 AM. Reason : s]

10/3/2009 8:30:45 AM

Would you feel the same way if they told their parents they were gay, libertarian, going to marry a black chick, etc?

10/3/2009 8:36:07 AM

being gay and marrying interracially actively and visibly changes the family, with the addition of the person's partner. I never said that they should not be an atheist, and so of course they should marry whomever they love. That being said, should a gay son go out of his way to regale his mother with lurid tales from the club? No! Once she knows about it, just let it be. People need time to adjust and come to terms with things. As long as it may have taken someone to prepare to come out of the closet, their parents may need just as much time to adjust to the news.

As far as being atheist/libertarian, these have very little visual impact on the family and so there is even less need to bring it up unnecessarily. As I said earlier in the thread, you shouldn't betray your beliefs, but you don't have to throw them in people's faces either.

10/3/2009 8:45:45 AM

Quote :

"It's not about creating an argument. It is not about intellectual debate. It is not about "academic authority." All these philosophical debates are a just waste of time. To truly believe in God's divine nature is to take the complete opposite stance."

That sounds more like a psychosis than a moral worldview.

10/3/2009 9:28:03 AM

wow you really scored a point there!

For every snarky comment you make about people of faith, they've got one for you.

10/3/2009 9:33:59 AM

Quote :

"getting back to the point of this thread, atheists should surely go out of their way to belittle their christian family members"

I made it very clear early in the thread that it wasn't about belittling anyone or rubbing it in their faces.

Quote :

"Semantecs or whatever, but athiests and agnostics dont overlap. athiests reject the posibility of a diety, agnostics reject the question because we cant know either way. These two views conflict. You can be an agnostic that operates on the assumption there is no god, but that's not the same as rejecting the possibility of god. In my view if you dont believe in a diety, but would believe in one given evidence, then you are an agnostic. Provided evidence of a deity, athiests would contiue to reject the possibility of a diety. Most people claiming to be athiests are probably agnostics.."

Atheists don't reject the possibility of a deity. It's not that one couldn't exist, it's that I haven't seen anything yet to suggest that there is one. I don't reject the possibility of intelligent life somewhere in the universe, but we haven't been able to verify it. I don't operate on the assumption that aliens, with the aid of a cloaking device of some sort, are manipulating human interaction. It's in the realm of possibility, though. I can't reject the possibility that we're all just brains in a vat, but how useful is it to assume that we are?

So, to recap, you're caught up on the idea that atheists reject the possibility of a supreme being, which simply isn't true except for very strong atheists. Any atheist that has thought about it much knows it's stupid to deny the possibility of something that can't be detected, by definition, but that doesn't bring any credibility to the god claim.

Quote :

"well, a lot of christians would also admit that they were wrong if they were presented with incontrovertible proof that god doesn't exist."

No, they wouldn't. Science directly contradicts Christianity, in many ways. And, as science continues to reveal more about the universe, Christians simply find a way to make it work with the new facts. Christianity, or any religion, is not about looking at the evidence and coming to a reasonable conclusion. It's about being indoctrinated and doing mental gymnastics to make it believable in your own mind.

Quote :

"I'd be interested to hear what God, McDanger, and your specific labels are. Perhaps you are all the same variation?"

I'm an atheist, an agnostic, non-religious, and antitheist. Each of those labels has different implications, but I definitely classify as all four.

Quote :

"This is my point... If it is so painful to your mother that she would block it out and convince herself otherwise, then WHY in the world would you have the desire to throw it back in her face and keep reminding her otherwise? I guess I just don't understand why someone would actively seek out to hurt their own mother. Everyone's had different life experiences, though... Maybe she burned you guys with cigarette butts or something - who knows?"

Quote :

"^ pretty damned selfish, IMO... Just live and let live. Its not like the kids in this thread are still 13yo angst ridden teenagers. They don't get a pass on stupid shit like that, "LET ME BE MYSELF MOM!!!" But then again, atheists were never known for their selflessness. That's for damn sure. <---One of the dumbest comments in this thread, and that's saying something."

Quote :

"As far as being atheist/libertarian, these have very little visual impact on the family and so there is even less need to bring it up unnecessarily. As I said earlier in the thread, you shouldn't betray your beliefs, but you don't have to throw them in people's faces either."

You keep making this emotional argument, which is basically: "Why do you hate your mother? Why would you want to hurt her feelings? You should do whatever it takes to not hurt her feelings!"

I disagree. It's not as if I'm repeatedly bringing this subject up to them and trying to insult their intelligence for believing. I avoid the topic at all costs, really. It's out of respect for my parents that I felt it was necessary, at a specified point in time, to make it clear what I thought about a topic important to them. Are all of your relationships modeled in the way that you've suggested they should be? Do you only reveal the truth when you're sure it won't hurt the person's feelings? It's my opinion that, if you want to be seen as someone who is trustworthy, reliable, and consistent, you have to be honest, especially with family. Even if it won't be received well.

I think I said something like this earlier in the thread, but in response to any kind of "keep the peace" argument concerning the discussion of god: Religion is, overall, a destructive force in our society, and a detriment to scientific progress. I have no desire to live in a world/society where everyone is tolerant of every belief, regardless of what it is. Ideas should be challenged and criticized. If they are valid ideas, they'll stand up to the challenge. I'm not suggesting that we force anyone to believe anything, but I don't respect Christianity. I respect the individual, and I think they deserve better than to be enslaved to an imaginary god and threats of hell.

[Edited on October 3, 2009 at 10:07 AM. Reason : ]

10/3/2009 10:06:34 AM

Quote :

"I avoid the topic at all costs, really."

Oh? Look at all these times that you could have avoided the topic, but instead chose to engage:

Quote :

"And it began. I said that it's a comforting thought, except that the rest of the world would go to hell for all eternity."

You didn't have to say that. You should've just let it drop.

Quote :

"The discussion went on, and I pretty much unleashed my entire arsenal"

Oh I guess this also counts as, "avoiding the topic at all costs"

Quote :

"My mom started crying at one point"

Here's a hint: if your mom starts crying while you're spewing your newfound atheism, you're not avoiding the topic at all costs.

Quote :

"Ideas should be challenged and criticized."

There's a time and place for that. Ripping into your mom's entire system of beliefs is not productive. You may think you have high IQ, but your social IQ is sorely lacking.

Quote :

"I'm not suggesting that we force anyone to believe anything, but I don't respect Christianity. I respect the individual, and I think they deserve better than to be enslaved to an imaginary god and threats of hell."

Once again, we're back to what I started with... You're no different than a fundamentalist christian, except you've done a search-replace on your belief system. Try it out - in your quote above, replace "christianity" with "homosexuality" and "god and threats of hell" with "perverted desires" Here - I'll do it for you... Listen to yourself:

Quote :

"I'm not suggesting that we force anyone to believe anything, but I don't respect homosexuality. I respect the individual, and I think they deserve better than to be enslaved to their perverted desires."

Sound familiar? I'm sure you've heard similar statements in your fundamentalist upbringing, "love the sinner, hate the sin." The sad fact is that nothing important about you has changed at all. Youa re still the same judgemental fundamentalist with a superiority complex. You still feel that anyone who doesn't believe in what you believe is wrong and in need of correction. You are NO different than every other fundamentalist christian that you despise so much.


[Edited on October 3, 2009 at 10:57 AM. Reason : s]

10/3/2009 10:47:19 AM

Quote :

"For every snarky comment you make about people of faith, they've got one for you."

He based his faith on rejection of logic and observation. Believing in objects for which no evidence exists and for which the mere search for evidence you reject, is pretty close to a psychosis. I have friends of faith, whom I disagree with, but whose opinion I respect.


There is a fundamental contradiction between someone who says we're created in God's image and yet our God-given faculties will betray us from the knowledge of he in whose image we were created.

For most of recorded Christendom, man approached God with the concept that he had the ability to discern him through observation of the natural world and through his texts. That form of "faith" is a rejection of that tradition.

10/3/2009 11:54:19 AM

Quote :

"Oh? Look at all these times that you could have avoided the topic, but instead chose to engage:"

Quote :

"You didn't have to say that. You should've just let it drop."

Quote :

"Oh I guess this also counts as, "avoiding the topic at all costs""

Quote :

"Here's a hint: if your mom starts crying while you're spewing your newfound atheism, you're not avoiding the topic at all costs."

My atheism isn't newfound.

I specifically said that I wanted to make it clear what I believed at this particular juncture. I never had before. It was not clear, and when I made the first comment, my mom followed up on it, asking what I did believe. At that point, there was no avoiding the discussion, and I knew the time had come to say what I'd been waiting to say for a very long time. You would have simply backed off and avoided the confrontation, I know. That isn't what I chose to do, and I wasn't wrong for it. It was going to come out eventually, and instead of being my normal, passive self, I said what needed to be said. Up to that discussion, and going forward from that discussion, I most likely will avoid the topic at all costs. The conversation itself needed to take place, though. Obviously, you disagree, but I'm satisfied with my decision.

You suggested on the first page that I would feel worse about this as time went on, yet that seems to not be the case. My mom ended up sending me an e-mail that essentially apologized for becoming emotional, and that she came to the realization that I had probably been hiding this for a long time and was afraid of what their reaction would be, which is absolutely true. I thought this might be the one thing they would blow up about and really be disappointed. That wasn't the case though, and I see my relationship with my parents improving from here on out. She assured me that their love was unconditional, and they would support me in whatever I chose to do with the same intensity as they always had. I think I just have really good parents, which is something I took for granted in the past.

Quote :

"There's a time and place for that. Ripping into your mom's entire system of beliefs is not productive. You may think you have high IQ, but your social IQ is sorely lacking."

So when is the time and place? If I took your advice, I'd hide my atheism from my parents indefinitely.

Quote :

"Once again, we're back to what I started with... You're no different than a fundamentalist christian, except you've done a search-replace on your belief system."

What do you think my belief system is? I'm criticizing a belief system. You keep making this point that I'm simply picking a side and fighting for it, without any regard for reason. You want that to be true, but it isn't, and it's clear from my posts that it isn't. I know Christianity pretty well. I have problems with it. One of those problems is that I feel the Christian, if they believe the bible is true, is required to believe in it, or they'll go to hell. Is that a false statement?

Quote :

"Try it out - in your quote above, replace "christianity" with "homosexuality" and "god and threats of hell" with "perverted desires" Here - I'll do it for you... Listen to yourself:"

I won't be listening to myself, because it isn't myself making the statement. If you replace the words, it has become your statement, not mine. It's not an effective analogy. When I say "I don't respect Christianity," it means I don't respect the belief system. I have studied the belief system, and have found it to be immoral. If I were to say, "I don't respect homosexuality," it would mean that I don't respect a human attribute. It would be much like saying, "I don't respect brown skin" or "I don't respect blue eyes." It doesn't make any sense. Attributes are not propositions to be evaluated, they're just...attributes. Homosexuality has no real implications, as far as what one has to believe. Sexuality comes from within - there's no outside source telling you what you have to feel. It isn't accurate to say that one was enslaved to their sexual feelings, because slavery implies a master, and if the master is your own natural desires...well, you can't be a slave to yourself.

Quote :

"Sound familiar? I'm sure you've heard similar statements in your fundamentalist upbringing, "love the sinner, hate the sin." The sad fact is that nothing important about you has changed at all. Youa re still the same judgemental fundamentalist with a superiority complex."

I am judgmental, but I think most people are. You kind of need to be, if you want to form opinions. I'm not a fundamentalist, as I explained before. There are no "fundamentals" of atheism from which I derive moral principles. A rejection of a claim is not a moral principle. I don't see how you could say I have a superiority complex, based on what I've said here. I haven't been attacking individuals, I've been attacking religion itself.

Quote :

"You still feel that anyone who doesn't believe in what you believe is wrong and in need of correction."

Actually, I'm very willing to admit that there are things that I'm wrong about. I have been wrong in the past. I will discover that I have been wrong in the future. The best way to figure out what I'm wrong about is to discuss it with others. Though, again, you're using believe in the wrong way. I'm espousing no "belief." I'm rejecting a certain belief. Anything that I claim to believe, or know, is backed by sufficient evidence.

Quote :

"You are NO different than every other fundamentalist christian that you despise so much."

You can keep saying that, but it won't make it true. You haven't backed up your point, you've simply constructed an embarrassingly bad analogy. And I don't despite fundamentalist Christians - I've stated that repeatedly. How could I despise someone for believing something that I once believed, on some level?

By the way, I dare you to actually methodically tear apart my arguments, as I have done to yours so many times in this thread. I know you won't - you'll simply post some garbage that accuses me of hating my parents, hating Christians, and being a fundamentalist, while ignoring every good point that I make.

[Edited on October 3, 2009 at 12:04 PM. Reason : ]

10/3/2009 11:57:08 AM

Quote :

"I don't see how you could say I have a superiority complex, based on what I've said here"

Hmm... let's see...

Quote :

"I'd say one group is more deserving of ridicule than the other."

This puts the lie to your high-minded pretense of hating the sin, loving the sinner.

[Edited on October 3, 2009 at 12:23 PM. Reason : s]

10/3/2009 12:11:08 PM

That statement doesn't suggest a superiority complex. If a person claims to believe in what I perceive to be an immoral belief system, that is more deserving of ridicule than someone that isn't making any claims at all. It doesn't mean I despise the person, or dislike the person. It means the person is deserving of ridicule. Parents, friends, or girlfriends, despite how much you may love them, can be deserving of ridicule.

10/3/2009 12:30:13 PM

Quote :

"It doesn't mean I despise the person, or dislike the person. It means the person is deserving of ridicule. Parents, friends, or girlfriends, despite how much you may love them, can be deserving of ridicule."

This is the kind of tortured self-centered rationalization that gives atheists a bad name. If you seriously can't see how much of a superiority complex someone would need to have in order justify ridiculing his wife and mother.... may !god have mercy on your !soul

[Edited on October 3, 2009 at 12:40 PM. Reason : s]

10/3/2009 12:37:33 PM

^

10/3/2009 1:02:34 PM

If I believed something ridiculous, I would want loved ones to tell me. They often have, and it was a good thing for me. Just keep making the emotional argument, though. "Oh, how could you ever criticize something that a loved one believes!" There's nothing self-centered about it. It's about being open, honest, and having accountability. Those are values that I know you don't give a rat's ass about, if your posts in this thread are any indication of what you actually think. You'd rather keep the peace indefinitely, never uttering a word to someone you love that might upset them, or that they might disagree with.

You claim to be an atheist. You must think that you're justified in that. Yet, for some reason, you live in permanent fear of asserting your position. Not to internet strangers, but to the people that should matter most to you. If you're satisfied with that, fine. Relationships, in my view, are a two way street. If I expect honesty, then I should exhibit honesty. Or I could take your route, and weasel my way out of tough discussions because I can't deal with the possible outcomes. Yeah, no. But hey, I'm young and dumb, right? Maybe with age, I'll learn to run away from my problems instead of confronting them directly.

10/3/2009 1:05:42 PM

I've said repeatedly in this thread that no one should ever betray his or her beliefs. Maybe with age, you'll learn to let sleeping dogs lie.

P.S. I don't believe that a disagreement over faith or lack thereof is a "problem" to be confronted.


[Edited on October 3, 2009 at 1:19 PM. Reason : s]

10/3/2009 1:16:43 PM

If I learn to let sleeping dogs lie (which, for the most part, I have), it won't be because of principle, it'll be out of self-interest. I fully understand the idea of not bringing up shit that you know will start an argument for the sake of keeping things civil. That's why I don't plan to bring it up unless I'm really backed into a corner. Clarification has to take place at some point, though, which is what this thread is about. Your position has clearly been that I shouldn't have said anything at all. We disagree, and I think that's just how it will have to be.

10/3/2009 1:28:14 PM

Quote :

"It doesn't mean I despise the person, or dislike the person. It means the person is deserving of ridicule. Parents, friends, or girlfriends, despite how much you may love them, can be deserving of ridicule."

10/3/2009 1:28:46 PM

i'm thinking that "ridicule" is poor word choice on his part; he probably means something like contempt

10/3/2009 1:33:41 PM

Was that statement arrogant? Or do you not know what "being on a high horse" means?

^No, I mean ridicule. Notice that I only say "deserving of ridicule." I think anyone that believes in an ultimate moral authority who has created a universe in which most people will go to hell is deserving of ridicule. As in, they deserve to be made fun of for believing something that makes no sense and is completely absurd. That doesn't mean I'll deliver the ridicule myself. Contempt wouldn't be a good word choice at all. That implies disrespect.

[Edited on October 3, 2009 at 1:40 PM. Reason : ]

10/3/2009 1:35:15 PM

contempt for one's mother is always defendable

10/3/2009 1:35:45 PM

contempt for one's mother something that you believe is wrong always defendable

[Edited on October 3, 2009 at 1:45 PM. Reason : ^^ridicule implies maliciousness, so that doesn't seem to help your case]

10/3/2009 1:37:58 PM

Quote :

" con·tempt /k?n't?mpt/ [kuhn-tempt] the feeling with which a person regards anything considered mean, vile, or worthless; disdain; scorn."

Mom is so proud of her contemptuous son. the hole keeps getting deeper.


Keep defending ridicule... It's really quite revealing when you describe how your mother deserves to be maliciously ridiculed and made fun of for her personal faith in god. I wonder why everyone hates atheists so much.... I wonder what attitudes they might have that would turn people against them???


[Edited on October 3, 2009 at 1:52 PM. Reason : s]

10/3/2009 1:46:35 PM

As far as people deserving ridicule, I'd say anyone who believes in anything that involves pseudoscience, and I'm including religion, deserves ridicule. We give religion a free pass in this country, and that's why we've got shit like Intelligent Design creeping into our schools.

My boss told me once that he paid for a dowser to come to his property and find the right place to put a well. And, you know what? I called him an idiot. He deserved ridicule for that.

And for whoever asked what my "official" religious stance was a few dozen posts ago, it's Antitheism.

10/3/2009 2:18:53 PM

and then atheists go whine about how no one likes them....

Quote :

"Unfortunately, your family will usually look at you differently and act like shitbags for the rest of your life (If they're like the folks in my family)."

Yea! go figure...

10/3/2009 2:22:36 PM

Quote :

"ridicule implies maliciousness, so that doesn't seem to help your case"

It could imply maliciousness, providing the right context, but it doesn't in the way I'm using it. If you believe something that can clearly be demonstrated as ridiculous, or absurd, or crazy, or immoral, you should be called out for it. The only time you're allowed to believe something crazy is when it's religion. Then, suddenly, I'm supposed to respect it. Well, I don't respect it. More specifically, I don't respect that person's belief. I can still respect the person, and just understand that they don't actually believe everyone deserves to go to hell, they're just going along with it because they feel like they have to. I'm not even tolerant of the belief. I think it's straight up stupid and destructive.

Quote :

"Mom is so proud of her contemptuous son. the hole keeps getting deeper."

I guess I do have contempt for Christianity. In no post, in this thread or otherwise, will you find an example of where I showed contempt for my mom. You'll continue to try to make it seem like I have, because you don't have a leg to stand on in this debate. You've thrown so many softballs at this point that I've blasted out of the park without much of a challenge, and you've offered no rebuttal. And you won't offer a rebuttal. If you could, you would have done so by now. The best you can do is take quotes, isolated from their context, and twist their meaning to your liking.

Quote :

"Keep defending ridicule... It's really quite revealing when you describe how your mother deserves to be maliciously ridiculed and made fun of for her personal faith in god. I wonder why everyone hates atheists so much.... I wonder what attitudes they might have that would turn people against them???"

Damn, you got me.

Quote :

"By the way, I dare you to actually methodically tear apart my arguments, as I have done to yours so many times in this thread. I know you won't - you'll simply post some garbage that accuses me of hating my parents, hating Christians, and being a fundamentalist, while ignoring every good point that I make."

10/3/2009 2:23:20 PM

It could be that I agree with the arguments you've made that I haven't challenged. However...

Quote :

"I'd say one group is more deserving of ridicule than the other"

Quote :

"Parents, friends, or girlfriends, despite how much you may love them, can be deserving of ridicule"

Quote :

"It doesn't mean I despise the person, or dislike the person. It means the person is deserving of ridicule."

Quote :

"they deserve to be made fun of for believing something that makes no sense and is completely absurd."

These are not good points.

[Edited on October 3, 2009 at 2:51 PM. Reason : s]

10/3/2009 2:47:10 PM

Quote :

"P.S. I don't believe that a disagreement over faith or lack thereof is a "problem" to be confronted. "

Except when the disagreement causes problems...

10/3/2009 2:52:02 PM

if both parties mind their own business, then it won't become one.

10/3/2009 2:53:52 PM

Quote :

"As far as people deserving ridicule, I'd say anyone who believes in anything that involves pseudoscience, and I'm including religion, deserves ridicule. We give religion a free pass in this country, and that's why we've got shit like Intelligent Design creeping into our schools. My boss told me once that he paid for a dowser to come to his property and find the right place to put a well. And, you know what? I called him an idiot. He deserved ridicule for that. "

Your boss deserve ridicule because there are other objectively better methods for accomplishing the task he set out to do. However, in answering the question of the origins and purpose of the universe, believing in god, the flying spaghetti monster, cosmic wet farts or thor are of equal objective merit provided that one's belief does not prevent one from seeking proof of the answer.

Science and religion can peacefully co-exist in one person and in the world. The problem is, we as a society have mixed the two so badly that we feel in order to separate one from the other, we must destroy one or the other.

10/3/2009 3:09:15 PM

^^^^So you think it's a reasonable and a moral position to praise a god that created hell, and sends the vast, vast majority of people there? That's not a position that a person should be criticized, and yes, ridiculed for? That's a position that should be respected and tolerated? It's not consistent to say it's a dumb belief, except when my parents believe it. I'm trying to stay objective.

10/3/2009 3:10:40 PM

ridicule, by its nature, is not an objective action.

10/3/2009 3:19:13 PM

Quote :

"if both parties mind their own business, then it won't become one. "

Except that Christianity mandates that you DON’T mind your own business.

Christians are supposed to try to get people to believe in Christ, otherwise those people will go to Hell.

Why do you think there is very well funded organizations that try and get Creationism taught in science classrooms? These people have a footing in Texas, and other places.

[Edited on October 3, 2009 at 5:07 PM. Reason : ]

10/3/2009 5:05:33 PM

Quote :

"In fact these debates that have no basis except for "well this is what I think" only support what it says about our nature. Just read through II Timothy."

McWorldView (tm)

Quote :

"I'd be interested to hear what God, McDanger, and your specific labels are. Perhaps you are all the same variation?"

Certainly don't think about the question much, since it doesn't matter.

I like how people in this thread are saying "oh gawrsh, you're such an INTELLECTUAL ELITIST to think that some view points are superior to others!!" Give it a fuckin' break. If you don't understand that certain theories, viewpoints, arguments, etc have more desirable qualities than others, you're a grade A dipshit. It's funny that (stereotypically) conservatives suddenly become liberal relativists when it comes to religious beliefs in these philosophical debates. "All viewpoints have the same merit! Leave people alone!"

10/3/2009 5:23:27 PM

well, as an existential nihilist, that's how i feel. sorry!

10/3/2009 5:45:06 PM

Feel however you want, the rest of us who know better will be out figuring out more efficient ways of doing/structuring shit

10/3/2009 6:04:06 PM

Ok well I'm not sure how ridiculing your mom plays into figuring out efficient ways of doing "shit" but if you say so...

10/3/2009 6:20:08 PM

Hmm yase clearly I agree with everything the OP did because I think some viewpoints have more merits than others!

10/3/2009 6:33:27 PM

alright, my bad... sounded like you were taking his side when it comes to ridiculing mothers. Its definitely ok to think that one viewpoint has more merits than another.

But ridiculing your mom.... or wife... well, it goes without saying why most people dislike atheists.

10/3/2009 6:38:41 PM

Ridicule isn't an ideology-specific shortcoming

I've had religious discussions with my mom where she ended up asking for the conversation to end, but that's just because some people can't handle honesty

10/3/2009 6:40:14 PM

I know its not ideology specific... that's why I've kept reminding destroyer that he hasn't really changed from christian to atheist... he's still the same smarmy little contemptuous brat he always was.

10/3/2009 6:44:31 PM

Quote :

" Except that Christianity mandates that you DON’T mind your own business."

false

Quote :

"Christians are supposed to try to get people to believe in Christ, otherwise those people will go to Hell."

false

Quote :

"Why do you think there is very well funded organizations that try and get Creationism taught in science classrooms? These people have a footing in Texas, and other places."

misguided people who love to hear their own voice and think they are better than anyone and use christianity as a crutch to hide their bigotry

10/3/2009 7:08:10 PM

Quote :

"The irony is that he majored in a scientific field."

Ha, i was waiting for someone to pull that out. I don't think it really has any bearing on anything, but since it was brought up, I think mathematics and the laws of nature only support the existence of God, considering how relatively little we can really understand about them.

By the way, my belief in the Bible obviously assumes that you have some sort of reasonable belief that God exists. It is faith based for sure, and from my understanding atheists really have no faith in anything. So of course the Bible is a ridiculous premise to them. I am saying that is a completely selfish stance. Belief and in turn submission to God's Law is about taking the spotlight off of ourselves and believing in something other than our own naturally selfish feelings and views.

10/3/2009 8:35:02 PM

Quote :

"Belief and in turn submission to God's Law is about taking the spotlight off of ourselves and believing in something other than our own naturally selfish feelings and views."

By that logic any flavor of higher being should be alright.

10/3/2009 8:49:16 PM

Well, that is just one of many changes you will undergo when you are converted, but an unselfishness stance lends itself to the conviction experienced through the Word...so it is just a first step so to speak. Once it actually convicts you, a lot of the doubts you may have had about its credibility are silenced. Christianity is at its core different than every other faith in the world, because it is the only one that suggests God chooses us, instead of what can God do for me. The focus is on His power and soverignty, not the other way around. So it is much different that just a belief in a higher being.

10/3/2009 9:09:47 PM

Quote :

"alright, my bad... sounded like you were taking his side when it comes to ridiculing mothers. Its definitely ok to think that one viewpoint has more merits than another. But ridiculing your mom.... or wife... well, it goes without saying why most people dislike atheists."

I'll address this point one last time, and I'm done with it. I never actually ridiculed my mom. What you did was take a statement where I said Christians were more deserving of ridicule than atheists. I stand by that statement. Christians, if they actually believe what the bible says, believe in a lot of stupid things. Those beliefs make them more deserving of ridicule, on the basis that they claim to believe in things that I view as silly, wrong, or both. If you believe homosexuals deserve to be put to death, that's wrong. If you believe Hell should exist, that's wrong. If you believe that slavery is acceptable, that's wrong. If you believe that over a million species of insects and other life were on Noah's arc, that's insane. If you think the world is 6,000 years old, lol. And, if you say that the bible is the infallible word of God, then you have endorsed all of those values.

You then made the connection that my mom was a Christian, and therefore, was also more deserving of ridicule than someone who makes no ridiculous claims. If I stand by my original statement, that is true. You took it one step further, for pretty much this entire page, and tried to say that my statement was the equivalent of disrespecting her. That isn't true, and I'm pretty sure you know that, and just don't care. You refuse to make the distinction between respecting a person, and respecting their compartmentalized beliefs. I understand our relationship much better than you, obviously, so I know what the truth is. You're just grasping at straws, and it's kind of pathetic. In before "you ridiculed your mother, you hate her", etc. You're entirely too predictable.

10/3/2009 9:23:15 PM

Quote :

"I don't think it really has any bearing on anything, but since it was brought up, I think mathematics and the laws of nature only support the existence of God, considering how relatively little we can really understand about them. "

lol speak for yourself buddy

10/3/2009 9:46:30 PM

Quote :

"Christianity is at its core different than every other faith in the world, because it is the only one that suggests God chooses us, instead of what can God do for me. The focus is on His power and soverignty, not the other way around. So it is much different that just a belief in a higher being."

You do realize you just described pretty much every monotheistic religion out there right? It might be time to take a course in other religions before you start espousing what they do or do not say.

10/3/2009 9:58:17 PM

ncsuREMY9, just so you know, this is about how coherent you sound in this thread:

Quote :

"EARTH HAS 4 CORNER SIMULTANEOUS 4-DAY TIME CUBE IN ONLY 24 HOUR ROTATION. 4 CORNER DAYS, CUBES 4 QUAD EARTH- No 1 Day God. ****************** FREE SPEECH in AMERICA is "BULL SHIT", EVIL EDUCATORS block and suppress http://www.timecube.com. You are educated evil, and might have to kill the evil ONE teaching educators before you can learn that 4 corner days actually exist -but all Cube Truth denied. Dumb ass educators fear me and hide from debate. They are paid to teach a propaganda book - not Cube Truth - for which they would be fired. Evil teachers betray students, as ONE is a Death Value. Cube 4x4 voids 1 & God."

http://www.timecube.com/

[Edited on October 3, 2009 at 10:03 PM. Reason : asdf]

10/3/2009 10:03:08 PM

Quote :

"I think mathematics and the laws of nature only support the existence of God, considering how relatively little we can really understand about them. "

What a contradictory sentence. Do you think that thunder is "God going bowling?" After all, we understand so little about it!

Quote :

"and from my understanding atheists really have no faith in anything"

Not really. I know what I know based on my knowledge, logic, and reason. Do I have hope? Of course. But that's something completely different.

10/3/2009 10:17:09 PM