"for my own good" == "so that I can start to value my racial and national purity"?

nthx i'm good.

6/4/2010 2:35:29 PM

6/4/2010 2:36:57 PM

In all seriousness, I think if you would critically evaluate your position on Israel you would see that it is fundamentally anchored in antisemitism.

Don't take comfort from the fact that polite society agrees with you. Polite society has a history of antisemitism.

6/4/2010 2:41:21 PM

lol @ the antisemitism copout.

I can't argue any of your points so I'm just going to throw around big words I don't understand like antisemitism.

6/4/2010 2:53:02 PM

what point do you want me to argue?

Israel is not allowed to defend itself.


Ok... lets start with that one. Well, I don't really know how tor respond other than to say that such a sentiment is undeniably antisemitic.

6/4/2010 2:59:44 PM

Quote :

"Israel is not allowed to defend itself."

Hmmm false

6/4/2010 3:02:34 PM

Ok, Israel is allowed to defend itself, but any time it actually does, we will condemn it.

6/4/2010 3:04:36 PM

Quote :

"Ok, Israel is allowed to defend itself, but any time it actually does, we will condemn it."

Hmm false

6/4/2010 3:06:57 PM

I know... I forgot that they are allowed to defend themselves perfectly.... but up until now they haven't defend themselves perfectly so therefore they deserve intense condemnation.

6/4/2010 3:11:43 PM

hmm false

[Edited on June 4, 2010 at 3:13 PM. Reason : .]

6/4/2010 3:12:48 PM

Quote :

"I forgot that they are allowed to defend themselves perfectly.... but up until now they haven't defend themselves perfectly so therefore they deserve intense condemnation."

Hmm false

god damn you're a fucking idiot engineers everywhere should be embarrassed you were able to graduate

[Edited on June 4, 2010 at 3:14 PM. Reason : .]

6/4/2010 3:13:40 PM

Oh, so you guys agree that Israel shouldn't be condemned for enforcing its blockade then?

6/4/2010 3:13:46 PM

Quote :

"Oh, so you guys agree that Israel shouldn't be condemned for enforcing its blockade then?"

The illegal blockade of Gaza has nothing to do with Israeli security and is even counter-productive to it.

6/4/2010 3:14:38 PM

I see, they're not defending themselves perfectly, therefore deserve condemnation.

[Edited on June 4, 2010 at 3:16 PM. Reason : s]

6/4/2010 3:15:33 PM

Hmmm false

6/4/2010 3:21:26 PM

The world is outraged at Israel's blockade of Gaza. Turkey denounces its illegality, inhumanity, barbarity, etc. The usual U.N. suspects, Third World and European, join in. The Obama administration dithers.

But as Leslie Gelb, former president of the Council on Foreign Relations, writes, the blockade is not just perfectly rational, it is perfectly legal. Gaza under Hamas is a self-declared enemy of Israel -- a declaration backed up by more than 4,000 rockets fired at Israeli civilian territory. Yet having pledged itself to unceasing belligerency, Hamas claims victimhood when Israel imposes a blockade to prevent Hamas from arming itself with still more rockets.

In World War II, with full international legality, the United States blockaded Germany and Japan. And during the October 1962 missile crisis, we blockaded ("quarantined") Cuba. Arms-bearing Russian ships headed to Cuba turned back because the Soviets knew that the U.S. Navy would either board them or sink them. Yet Israel is accused of international criminality for doing precisely what John Kennedy did: impose a naval blockade to prevent a hostile state from acquiring lethal weaponry.

Oh, but weren't the Gaza-bound ships on a mission of humanitarian relief? No. Otherwise they would have accepted Israel's offer to bring their supplies to an Israeli port, be inspected for military materiel and have the rest trucked by Israel into Gaza -- as every week 10,000 tons of food, medicine and other humanitarian supplies are sent by Israel to Gaza.

Why was the offer refused? Because, as organizer Greta Berlin admitted, the flotilla was not about humanitarian relief but about breaking the blockade, i.e., ending Israel's inspection regime, which would mean unlimited shipping into Gaza and thus the unlimited arming of Hamas.

Israel has already twice intercepted ships laden with Iranian arms destined for Hezbollah and Gaza. What country would allow that?

But even more important, why did Israel even have to resort to blockade? Because, blockade is Israel's fallback as the world systematically de-legitimizes its traditional ways of defending itself -- forward and active defense.

(1) Forward defense: As a small, densely populated country surrounded by hostile states, Israel had, for its first half-century, adopted forward defense -- fighting wars on enemy territory (such as the Sinai and Golan Heights) rather than its own.

Where possible (Sinai, for example) Israel has traded territory for peace. But where peace offers were refused, Israel retained the territory as a protective buffer zone. Thus Israel retained a small strip of southern Lebanon to protect the villages of northern Israel. And it took many losses in Gaza, rather than expose Israeli border towns to Palestinian terror attacks. It is for the same reason America wages a grinding war in Afghanistan: You fight them there, so you don't have to fight them here.

But under overwhelming outside pressure, Israel gave it up. The Israelis were told the occupations were not just illegal but at the root of the anti-Israel insurgencies -- and therefore withdrawal, by removing the cause, would bring peace.

Land for peace. Remember? Well, during the past decade, Israel gave the land -- evacuating South Lebanon in 2000 and Gaza in 2005. What did it get? An intensification of belligerency, heavy militarization of the enemy side, multiple kidnappings, cross-border attacks and, from Gaza, years of unrelenting rocket attack.

(2) Active defense: Israel then had to switch to active defense -- military action to disrupt, dismantle and defeat (to borrow President Obama's description of our campaign against the Taliban and al-Qaeda) the newly armed terrorist mini-states established in southern Lebanon and Gaza after Israel withdrew.

The result? The Lebanon war of 2006 and Gaza operation of 2008-09. They were met with yet another avalanche of opprobrium and calumny by the same international community that had demanded the land-for-peace Israeli withdrawals in the first place. Worse, the U.N. Goldstone report, which essentially criminalized Israel's defensive operation in Gaza while whitewashing the casus belli -- the preceding and unprovoked Hamas rocket war -- effectively de-legitimized any active Israeli defense against its self-declared terror enemies.

(3) Passive defense: Without forward or active defense, Israel is left with but the most passive and benign of all defenses -- a blockade to simply prevent enemy rearmament. Yet, as we speak, this too is headed for international de-legitimation. Even the United States is now moving toward having it abolished.

But, if none of these is permissible, what's left?

Ah, but that's the point. It's the point understood by the blockade-busting flotilla of useful idiots and terror sympathizers, by the Turkish front organization that funded it, by the automatic anti-Israel Third World chorus at the United Nations, and by the supine Europeans who've had quite enough of the Jewish problem.

What's left? Nothing. The whole point of this relentless international campaign is to deprive Israel of any legitimate form of self-defense. Why, just last week, the Obama administration joined the jackals, and reversed four decades of U.S. practice, by signing onto a consensus document that singles out Israel's possession of nuclear weapons -- thus de-legitimizing Israel's very last line of defense: deterrence.

The world is tired of these troublesome Jews, 6 million -- that number again -- hard by the Mediterranean, refusing every invitation to national suicide. For which they are relentlessly demonized, ghettoized and constrained from defending themselves, even as the more committed anti-Zionists -- Iranian in particular -- openly prepare a more final solution.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/03/AR2010060304287.html

6/4/2010 3:23:50 PM

hmm a bad opinion

6/4/2010 3:24:31 PM

Sorry solinari but i don't have the time at the moment to watch you pretend to be thoughtful and smart have fun though <3

6/4/2010 3:26:27 PM

Quote :

"we blockaded ("quarantined") Cuba"

A blockade is an act of war hence why the word "quarantine" was carefully chosen during the Cuban Missile Crisis.

I stopped reading after this sentence so I'd like to add.

Hmm false.

6/4/2010 3:29:01 PM

Quote :

"hmm a bad opinion"

you make a compelling argument here.

Quote :

"A blockade is an act of war hence why the word "quarantine" was carefully chosen during the Cuban Missile Crisis."

Typically, 5000 rockets fired into a nation's territory is also an act of war. Unless it is done to a bunch of dirty jews. Then its understandable. A bold protest against a racist nation of evil semites.

[Edited on June 4, 2010 at 3:36 PM. Reason : s]

6/4/2010 3:29:17 PM

Here is what happened. Cant be hatin on the Jew

http://www.michaeltotten.com/

http://www.michaeltotten.com/2010/06/anti-western-anti-jewish-and-anti-shia.php

Quote :

"Looking to his side, he saw three of his commanders lying wounded--one with a gunshot wound to the stomach and another with a gunshot wound to the knee. A third was lying unconscious; his skull was fractured by a devastating blow with a metal bar. As the next in the chain of command, S., who has been in the Shayetet for three and a half years, immediately took charge. He pushed the wounded soldiers up against the wall of the upper deck and created a perimeter of soldiers around them to begin treating their wounds, he said. He then arranged his men to form a second perimeter, and pulled out his 9 mm. Glock pistol to stave off the charging attackers and to protect his wounded comrades. The attackers had already seized two pistols from the commandos, and fired repeatedly at them. Facing more than a dozen of the mercenaries, and convinced their lives were in danger, he and his colleagues opened fire, he said. S. singlehandedly killed six men. His colleagues killed another three. On Thursday, S. sat down with The Jerusalem Post at the Shayetet’s base in northern Israel for an exclusive interview, during which he described the dramatic events aboard the Mavi Marmara on Monday; he is being considered for a medal of valor. “When I hit the deck, I was immediately attacked by people with bats, metal pipes and axes,” S. told the Post. “These were without a doubt terrorists. I could see the murderous rage in their eyes and that they were coming to kill us.” […] The IDF’s understanding is that the mercenaries mainly chose dual-purpose items of this sort rather than guns, since opening fire would have made it blatantly clear that they were terrorists and not so-called peace activists. Nevertheless, the IDF suspects that the group did have some guns of its own. Israeli forensic experts who examined the ship found casings belonging to a weapon that was not used by the commandos, and the Turkish captain of the ship later told the IDF that the “mercenaries” threw their weapons overboard after the commandos took control of the vessel."

6/4/2010 7:43:03 PM

Quote :

"Typically, 5000 rockets fired into a nation's territory is also an act of war."

What foreign country are they at war with? What foreign country are they blockading?

I find it funny that you call people here racist when israel is one of the most outrightly racist countries on the planet.

6/4/2010 8:10:06 PM

I swear to god, the mental gymnastics you people perform in order to justify your antisemitism is astounding.

6/4/2010 8:17:12 PM

Did you know the Israeli army has a "Minorities Unit"? Seriously, and those aren't even arabs, they're Druze! Talk about national purity, they call themselves a fucking Jewish state.

6/4/2010 8:22:23 PM

You must bow down before the nation of Israel or fear the wrath of being called an anti-semite by Solinari

They are the chosen race and all others must be wiped off the face of the earth if they do not submit to their 'self-defence' tactics....wait are we talking Israel or the Nazi party? I'm confused.

[Edited on June 4, 2010 at 8:56 PM. Reason : .]

6/4/2010 8:54:57 PM

Kris,

dont try to justify nuking israel.

thats what you are doing

6/4/2010 9:41:08 PM

Quote :

"They are the chosen race and all others must be wiped off the face of the earth if they do not submit to their 'self-defence' tactics....wait are we talking Israel or the Nazi party? I'm confused."

I can clear up your confusion. You are talking about Iran's official position on wiping Israel off the face of the map, thereby fulfilling Hitler's dream.

6/4/2010 9:42:56 PM

SPEAKING of the nazi effect left on the middle east...

http://www.michaeltotten.com/2010/05/the-flight-of-the-intellectuals.php


http://www.michaeltotten.com/2010/05/a-most-disturbing-moment-of-clarity.php

with associated clip





and then there is always these guys.

6/4/2010 9:58:40 PM

hooooly shit that first video

6/4/2010 10:14:46 PM

Yea, that genocidal ideology isnt exactly comforting.....but thats whats out there.

6/4/2010 10:33:06 PM

The ship has agreed to allow an "international" inspection of its cargo before it reaches Gaza tomorrow. Israel will refuse this and hijack the vessel anyway.

6/4/2010 10:34:49 PM

i would think there is nothing in the term "international" that excludes Israel inspectors

6/4/2010 10:37:32 PM

They mean a UN team that includes israeli inspectors. Obviously not a military operation, as the IDF can't be trusted with trigger discipline.

6/4/2010 10:39:00 PM

Quote :

"What foreign country are they at war with? What foreign country are they blockading?"

So then at the very least is there an agreement that Israel has the right and authority to police its own borders and control what is imported into the country? I'm completely behind the idea that the blockade is a stupid idea and Israel has for a long time been failing at this PR war, but am I to understand that we at least agree the blockade is within their rights and legal?

6/4/2010 11:10:07 PM

YES - THE RACHEL CORRIE HAS BEEN INTERCEPTED BY THE ISRAELI NAVY!!!!

fuck... twitter rumors.

[Edited on June 5, 2010 at 12:33 AM. Reason : s]

6/5/2010 12:24:27 AM

This is exactly how it was supposed to happen the first time. Lots of bad publicity but no casualties. The only reason this thread exists is the IDF killed a bunch of civilians.

[Edited on June 5, 2010 at 12:31 AM. Reason : It's all a net loss for the conservative Israeli government, another step in their demise.]

6/5/2010 12:30:30 AM

Quote :

"This is exactly how it was supposed to happen the first time. Lots of bad publicity but no casualties."

LOL, awww so sowwy... Too bad the IDF fucked their shit up lol



I fucking love this shit! I can't believe dumbass Hamas supporters really thought they could go fuck with the IDF and get away with it.

6/5/2010 12:48:56 AM

He's resorted to 3rd party smileys. I am clearly the better troll. I refer you to my work in the cycling thread. Solinari is a worthy opponent, though. Based on my own life, I can infer much about yours. I am sorry. One day things will get better. Or we will suicide. Doesn't really matter which.

[Edited on June 5, 2010 at 12:55 AM. Reason : I want to try that pavement surfing in that video.]

6/5/2010 12:54:30 AM

Who is the Hamas supporter in this thread?

6/5/2010 2:26:01 AM

http://english.aljazeera.net//news/middleeast/2010/06/20106535425983666.html

6/5/2010 2:31:36 AM

OK, I'll admit that I'm a bit jaded by years of so-called "international studies." But the point stands:

The Jews in Israel are absolutely fucking paranoid. And it's hard to blame them for that. Every place they're not the majority, they've suffered. Their goal is to retain control of their little area, because they think -- not necessarily rightly, but certainly based on history -- that wherever they're not in charge, they will suffer again.

I will gladly grant that their paranoia has reached unacceptable levels. But I don't think any substantial part of the Israeli government is racist, per se. They're merely obsessed with maintaining a situation under which they will be protected. It is indescribably unfortunate that the most basic outcome of this thinking is that they must suppress non-Jews in their territory.

This is the final, ultimate, nothing-else-to-be-said point of Israeli politics. History has told them that they can't share power with another group. And the only way for them to maintain power is to split their own country in half. Hell, the only way for them to get a country was to take land from somebody else. It's shit all the way around. I just worry that in any Israel thread there's an increasing loss of recognition of their primary raison d'etre.

6/5/2010 4:09:25 AM

Ok so where does seizing more territory from their neighbors and expanding settlements fall under?

6/5/2010 4:14:24 AM

Neither is an uncommon aspect of the same type of paranoia. The USSR didn't seize Poland because they hated Poles, they took it as a buffer.

Obviously I can't read the minds of Israel's government officials. But, if I had to guess, I would assume they're operating under roughly the same ideas. They are bad ideas, certainly. They'd be better off if they allowed a completely independent Palestine, withdrew from the Golan Heights, etc., and retained the right to go fuck with anyone who attacked them from those positions. That said, from a purely IR standpoint, I can understand why they act like they do -- and racism isn't a necessary requirement for explaining those actions.

On an extremely basic level Islam is in the same position. Everywhere it butts up against another religion there are problems. My coreligionists in the Orthodox Church fight them in former Yugoslavia and Chechnya. The Hindus fight them in India. The Jews (obviously) fight them in Palestine. And so on and so on. One can understand why certain elements of the Muslim faith respond the way they do. My thought has always been that there is a way to convince both sides that they have found a mutually beneficial position by appealing to something other than religion. We may as well face facts -- the Jews aren't going to leave the so-called "Holy Land."* The best we can do is try to divvy up the land in a way that, while people may not agree to it, they won't kill each other over.

*-Obviously enough I'm Christian. But you may rest assured that I absolutely do not, under any circumstances, consider my religion with regards to international politics. "Render unto Caesars what is Caesars," and whatnot. I take this very seriously. My thought is that God wants me to contribute to society what is best for said society in life, and that whatever I force people to do through government power doesn't really help them.

6/5/2010 4:33:47 AM

This was published by J-Street, a progressive American Jewish organization aimed at ending the Arab-Israeli conflict(s). I agree with most of what is said:

Quote :

"J Street on the Gaza Flotilla and Its Aftermath The events of recent days are shocking and tragic. We mourn the loss of life and wish the injured a full and speedy recovery. J Street believes strongly that without immediate leadership to change the course of events, the status quo in the Middle East will lead to further tragedy and ultimately to the demise of the Jewish, democratic Israel that we seek to preserve and protect. It is incumbent on President Obama, the leaders of the worldwide Jewish community, and the leaders of Israel to seize on this moment of crisis and tragedy and turn it into a meaningful opportunity to end the underlying conflict once and for all. We urge that Israel immediately appoint a scrupulously independent commission to investigate the events onboard the Marmara and the decisions and circumstances surrounding the tragedy. We do believe that the government of Israel is capable of carrying out such an investigation but recognize its credibility is in doubt. Nothing but an immediate inquiry led by an impartial figure outside the government can produce a report that would be viewed as fair by Israel and the wider international community. We harbor no illusions about the motives of those who organized the flotilla. While the cargo they carried was humanitarian in nature, their intent was to force the Israeli government to confront the consequences of the blockade of Gaza - including by using the media coverage to further damage Israel's standing in world opinion. They have succeeded not only in creating negative publicity but in highlighting for the world that Israel's actions and policies go far beyond the measures necessary to prevent the import of weapons and other material aid to terrorists in the Gaza Strip. Israel may have had the necessary legal justification to enforce its blockade, but the correct question isn't whether it had the right to use force, but whether that decision was strategically wise and furthered the clear goal of promoting the security of a Jewish, democratic and safe Israel. We believe it did not. J Street's Position: We call for 1. Lifting the unproductive blockade of humanitarian and construction materials into Gaza while supporting serious, effective security measures to prevent weapons and other terrorist supplies from entering. 2. The immediate release by Hamas of Corporal Gilad Shalit and Hamas' renunciation of violence as a means of achieving the political goal of Palestinian freedom and independence. 3. An immediate, serious and dramatic effort, led by President Obama, to end the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and achieve a two-state solution now. 4. An outpouring of support from the American Jewish community and all those who care about preserving a Jewish, democratic, and safe Israel for immediate movement on the part of the state of Israel toward a diplomatic two-state resolution. 5. The leaders of all sides - Arabs, Palestinians and Israelis - to begin an honest conversation with their people about how this conflict will end and the compromises and sacrifices that will be necessary to avoid further generations of violence, bloodshed and terror. Finally, we echo President Obama's call for a two-state solution in Cairo one year ago this week: "Too many tears have been shed. Too much blood has been shed. All of us have a responsibility to work for the day when the mothers of Israelis and Palestinians can see their children grow up without fear; when the Holy Land of the three great faiths is the place of peace that God intended it to be; when Jerusalem is a secure and lasting home for Jews and Christians and Muslims, and a place for all of the children of Abraham to mingle peacefully together as in the story of Isra, when Moses, Jesus, and Mohammed, peace be upon them, joined in prayer.""

6/5/2010 5:13:33 AM

Ex-Mossad Agent Victor Ostrovsky Criticizes Israel's Handling of Flotilla Raid

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Itk02YXuAZM

6/5/2010 6:07:59 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOGG_osOoVg

6/6/2010 1:10:10 PM

it wasn't funny when you posted it in Chit Chat earlier, either.

6/6/2010 1:12:34 PM

Well, it had me chuckling at least. I guess leftists just have thin skin.

"we took some pictures with doves"

If not LOL worthy, it was at least lol worthy.


[Edited on June 6, 2010 at 1:20 PM. Reason : s]

6/6/2010 1:16:06 PM

Or you just have YouTube tourettes.

6/6/2010 1:17:14 PM

Turkish Prime Minister is threatening to lead the next flotilla personally. I assume with a military escort.

6/6/2010 1:22:25 PM