Quote :

"You can refinance a house, car, etc because you have a tangible asset in case you can not pay the loan. The same is not the case for student loans."

you can refinance credit card debt.

9/26/2011 9:11:46 PM

^Yep, I do think it's bullshit that there is no escaping student loans through bankruptcy etc. It someone can walk away from their mortgage, they should be able to do the same with student loans. Fair is fair.

9/26/2011 9:29:12 PM

What do you mean fair is fair? People sign contracts for student loans knowing full well they can't discharge them in bankruptcy and now people are pissed they can't be discharged in bankruptcy?!?!?
Why do people keep comparing student loans to mortgages. If I default on my mortgage payments the bank takes my house and recoups almost all its losses. It's comparing apples and oranges.

Furthermore, the person making 18K doesn't have student loans. My post was just pointing out that a lot of people live above their means and I'm tired of hearing people bitch about making 2X that and not being able to save a penny. Also, there are plenty of jobs out there, but heaven forbid someone lower themselves to do some $10/hr job or manual labor even though it could actually lead to something fruitful.

9/26/2011 9:57:29 PM

The sad thing is restaurants and bars are always hiring people and in everyone (7 total) you could average at least 30k a year working 40 hours a week on average. Some even offered discounted health insurance. One even had a 50% matching 401k. I would love to not have to pay student loans for the degree I never finished. However it seems irresponsible to just get rid of everyone's debts.

9/26/2011 10:14:01 PM

If I default on my student loan, I can't buy anything ever again. It's not like there is no penalty for non-payment.

Quote :

"Furthermore, the person making 18K doesn't have student loans."

Then why did you bring it up in a thread about student loans. That seems like a strange way to make a point.

Quote :

" My post was just pointing out that a lot of people live above their means and I'm tired of hearing people bitch about making 2X that and not being able to save a penny"

Thats... not even close to what's being discussed here.

Quote :

"heaven forbid someone lower themselves to do some $10/hr job or manual labor even though it could actually lead to something fruitful."

I'm going to say it again even though it's apparent at this point you're not going to read what anyone else is saying, but rather continue beating the same ignorant drum you came in here with: this discussion isn't about lazy people, or uneducated people, or people looking for a free ride, or people taking advantage of the system. All of those people exist in great quantities and they're all shitbags, no one would ever disagree with that. We're talking about are people with degrees who in some way were let down by the system. Please try to discuss this subject in future posts.

9/26/2011 10:15:46 PM

Quote :

"Just curious... what is everybody paying a month and for what degrees?"

Not sure yet what I'll be paying each month, but total loans (for 2 years) will be about $50-60K for a Master's in genetic counseling


I have a feeling it's going to hurt.

[Edited on September 26, 2011 at 10:23 PM. Reason : .]

9/26/2011 10:16:03 PM

Quote :

"Noen: I'm not ignoring that at all. The role of higher education has been MASSIVELY distorted over the past 20 years in the US. The whole notion that in order to be a successful adult, one must go to university is WRONG in so many ways. Most other 1st world countries still have a balanced University/Skilled Trade system. The US did too until the "studies" showing that college degrees = higher overall income potential started getting attention in the late 80's/early 90's. Since then it's been an educational bubble, not unlike the Housing Market. University of Phoenix is a great example. They have 80%+ of their students taking out loans. They have a 7% graduation rate. We as a society need to undo this bullshit mythology that kids who don't go to college are stupid, lower-class or somehow inferior to those that do. University has never been about preparing people for jobs. That has always been the job of community colleges and trade schools. The cost of education is rising dramatically because the perceived demand for education is rising dramatically. The problem is that the whole thing is propped up by socio-political elitist and class-ist propaganda. You want to solve the problem of rising University costs? RAISE entrance requirements, RAISE course and curriculum difficulty, and rebuild the respectability of skilled trades. If there are FEWER kids going to university, the cost per student will go down because capital expenditures will decrease dramatically."

AHA, I was hoping we could talk about some of these things. Have a discussion about our individual and communal values and whatnot.

But, as usual, you've already expertly solved the problem...with a whole fourteen lines that all involve the same single idea: you don't have to go to college to be successful.

Brilliant analysis!

9/26/2011 10:16:20 PM

Quote :

"this discussion isn't about lazy people, or uneducated people, or people looking for a free ride,"

You have people who took all this money which they agreed to pay back now saying they no longer plan on paying it back. Sounds like people looking for a free ride to me.

9/26/2011 10:34:39 PM

Quote :

"AHA, I was hoping we could talk about some of these things. Have a discussion about our individual and communal values and whatnot. But, as usual, you've already expertly solved the problem...with a whole fourteen lines that all involve the same single idea: you don't have to go to college to be successful. Brilliant analysis!"

Would love to. I haven't expertly solved anything. I'm pointing out that prior to the current trend, we had a system that worked well. And today, other countries still use this same system and it still works very well.

Would love to hear other suggestions, ideas and alternatives.

Quote :

"We're talking about are people with degrees who in some way were let down by the system. Please try to discuss this subject in future posts."

This is why I think it's complete BS that you can't default on a student loan in the same way as any other loan.

Quote :

"Why do people keep comparing student loans to mortgages. If I default on my mortgage payments the bank takes my house and recoups almost all its losses. It's comparing apples and oranges."

WRONG. Banks are recouping maybe 20-30% of loan value on many of the bubble market foreclosures, and it takes years to even get that back.

In the same way, many students are paying enormous amounts for "education" that clearly isn't worth what they paid in. They should have the choice to default as well to get out from being "underwater" in their education.

Of course either situation should have severe penalties (and does). But this would make student loans much more difficult to get, and I have a feeling it would probably course correct a good bit of the madness we're in today.

The reality is, a LOT of students have student loans that they should never have been able to get in the first place. Without these loans, many more would have either diverted to local/state schools or community colleges, or not gone at all.

9/26/2011 11:13:12 PM

Quote :

"I'm not ignoring that at all. The role of higher education has been MASSIVELY distorted over the past 20 years in the US. The whole notion that in order to be a successful adult, one must go to university is WRONG in so many ways. Most other 1st world countries still have a balanced University/Skilled Trade system. The US did too until the "studies" showing that college degrees = higher overall income potential started getting attention in the late 80's/early 90's. Since then it's been an educational bubble, not unlike the Housing Market. University of Phoenix is a great example. They have 80%+ of their students taking out loans. They have a 7% graduation rate. We as a society need to undo this bullshit mythology that kids who don't go to college are stupid, lower-class or somehow inferior to those that do. University has never been about preparing people for jobs. That has always been the job of community colleges and trade schools. The cost of education is rising dramatically because the perceived demand for education is rising dramatically. The problem is that the whole thing is propped up by socio-political elitist and class-ist propaganda. You want to solve the problem of rising University costs? RAISE entrance requirements, RAISE course and curriculum difficulty, and rebuild the respectability of skilled trades. If there are FEWER kids going to university, the cost per student will go down because capital expenditures will decrease dramatically."

Okay. You're not wrong, but I think you're you're striking at the branches rather than the root; people didn't just start taking out loans. You couldn't always get student loans. There was a time, not even half a century ago, when you just worked through college or someone had to pay for it. If you did get a student loan, you really had to be able to sell yourself, none of this "sign the dotted line and you're good to go"...even though you were a mediocre student in high school with no real direction in life.

Obviously, things are different now. What changed, though? The availability of credit went up. Loans became more accessible. Credit has been touted as a panacea by the political establishment, and they, in collusion with banking institutions, have expanded credit in many different areas.

Then what? Prices start going up. Universities have no reason to lower costs. Banks will give out as many loans as they want with hardly any due diligence necessary. I know I sound like a broken record, but the only reason that these banks were able to blow up the bubble is because the government guarantees the contracts. The government shouldn't enforce these contracts. Why? The students are being milked by the creditors; a student loan is, in reality, a zero risk loan for the bank. Unless the person dies, the bank is going to get paid.

Point is, this didn't just happen because borrowers were dumb and made bad decisions. I mean, yes, many of them did make awful decisions, but there was an entire institution based around guiding people in that direction and profiting from it.

As far as whether we need more people going to trade school, that's at least partially true, but we still need more people going into high tech fields. If the market was allowed to work, we would see that balance move in a better direction, since people aren't as likely to throw good money after bad.

[Edited on September 26, 2011 at 11:24 PM. Reason : ]

9/26/2011 11:22:44 PM

Meanwhile... http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2011/09/the-real-problem-with-college-admissions-its-not-the-rankings/245649/

9/27/2011 12:17:38 AM

People keep bringing up "unemployment" in general when the focus here is on college loans being repaid. Yes the overall unemployment rate is not great, (It really isn't a crisis at this point imo though) but we can't be cherry-picking information here to support the cause. The majority of the unemployed people do not have college loans, thus you can't use the unemployment % as a whole to back up wanting to forgive student loan debt.

The last labor report I saw had unemployment among adults with a bachelor's degree or higher at something like 4% which is actually over 1% lower than it was 10 months ago. That number didn't just include recent graduates either (meaning lots of adults far removed from college who don't have student loans are rolled up into the 4%) and it also doesn't factor in the percentage of recent college graduates who don't have any loans (scholarships, parents, or worked a lot during college etc.). Now that we are down to just a couple % of new graduates who are unemployed, how many of them have actually done everything that is reasonable (and yes, having to move to take a job is extremely reasonable) to find a good job? Once you stand back and look at that, I think the story of the unemployed college graduate who really worked his butt off but still can't find any decent job is an outlier case that gets highlighted on CNN for dramatic effect.

Yes, the system needs reform probably, and I agree that it sucks if someone is truly a hard worker and simply cannot find a job somehow, especially if they have a lot of college loans. I just don't think that is the case among the majority of the young and unemployed.

Quote :

"I'll remind you that the subject of conversation here is decent, hard-working people who graduated with excessive student loan debt during a pretty rough recession -- moreover, we're talking about how those people can afford to pay off student loans on meager incomes. We're not talking about 99 weekers who play the system or people who in some way massively contributed to their own debt by lack of proper planning. Realize that these are two very distinct groups. So, Bob graduates with $50k in student loan debt. He gets the $18k job your friend left after your friend met you and instantly became financially stable. That's $1500 a month. Assuming the bare minimum: $500 in rent, $75 in utilities, $100/week in food, $25/week in gas, $35/month in car insurance, no health insurance, no luxuries, no emergencies. That leaves $390 each month, enough to maybe make the minimum payment on the student loan and $0 for savings. And that's with zero deductions."

Going with what I just said, I haven't seen enough proof that your scenario isn't a very small minority case.

People keep trying to shoot down the "anecdotal evidence" that other people are bringing up in this thread. What I think is funny though is that there are tons of people with "anecdotal evidence" stories about not knowing anyone who hasn't been able to find some sort of decent job. Yet there are very few, if any, people who have real-life stories about the nightmare scenario being touted where people they know worked their butt off in school and did all they could to find a decent job and still couldn't find one. I wonder why? One scenario seems more anecdotal than the other and it's not the one being touted as such. The situation is certainly not good...I just don't think we are going to have an entire generation of hard-working and deserving but debt ridden Americans like people are forecasting.

[Edited on September 27, 2011 at 8:24 AM. Reason : ]

9/27/2011 8:07:49 AM

Quote :

"Not sure yet what I'll be paying each month, but total loans (for 2 years) will be about $50-60K for a Master's in genetic counseling I have a feeling it's going to hurt."

Go play with this calculator a bit:
http://www.cfnc.org/Gateway?command=RepayCalc&calcaction=calc_staf&LoanAmount=10000

Or this one, since it can give you an amortization table.
https://origin.bankrate.com/calculators/college-planning/loan-calculator.aspx

$55,000 worth of Stafford loans at 6.8% for 10 year standard repayment plan = $633/month minimum payment. Assuming you pay the minimum every month, you'll end up paying $21,000 worth of interest for a total of ~$76,000.

Bump that up to paying $1,200/month, and the time and cost of your loans just got cut by more than half. 53-months (instead of 120), and $8,800 worth of interest instead of $21,000.

[Edited on September 27, 2011 at 9:19 AM. Reason : ]

9/27/2011 9:07:45 AM

I would prob go a little higher than the minimum... But only because I know I'll be starting at at least $50K/year

But that stings a bit

[Edited on September 27, 2011 at 9:15 AM. Reason : But I do know my loans aren't all stafford loans - I have the grad plus loan as well]

9/27/2011 9:13:50 AM

Quote :

"I would prob go a little higher than the minimum... But only because I know I'll be starting at at least $50K/year But that stings a bit [Edited on September 27, 2011 at 9:15 AM. Reason : But I do know my loans aren't all stafford loans - I have the grad plus loan as well]"

PLUS loans are usually 7.75%-8.25%. The numbers above should be a good starting point though.

9/27/2011 9:22:39 AM

Quote :

"Going with what I just said, I haven't seen enough proof that your scenario isn't a very small minority case."

I was replying directly to one user about one situation that he proposed.

9/27/2011 9:36:25 AM

Quote :

"People keep trying to shoot down the "anecdotal evidence" that other people are bringing up in this thread. What I think is funny though is that there are tons of people with "anecdotal evidence" stories about not knowing anyone who hasn't been able to find some sort of decent job. Yet there are very few, if any, people who have real-life stories about the nightmare scenario being touted where people they know worked their butt off in school and did all they could to find a decent job and still couldn't find one."

I'd say about 70% of the people I know from my class at UNC law don't have paid jobs right now since you asked, but it's really kinda neither here nor there

9/27/2011 9:36:57 AM

I guess they're really bringing up that 4% rate then

In reality that does suck and I'm not saying that reimbursing some loans isn't the correct long-term solution. I just think that a lot of research needs to go into something like this first to see if it actually makes sense and how many people it would actually help who are the true target of the idea. (% of people it would actually help who are the "ideal" candidates for something like this).

[Edited on September 27, 2011 at 9:59 AM. Reason : ]

9/27/2011 9:45:38 AM

Quote :

"WRONG. Banks are recouping maybe 20-30% of loan value on many of the bubble market foreclosures, and it takes years to even get that back."

I specifically said if the bank takes "my house" I wasn't referring to foreclosures in general. Even at 20-30% at least they are recouping some of the money.

Quote :

"They should have the choice to default as well to get out from being "underwater" in their education."

How can you even say students are "underwater" in their education when a degree isn't really a tangible asset with a set value?

Quote :

"The reality is, a LOT of students have student loans that they should never have been able to get in the first place."

What makes you say this? How are the banks/govt supposed to know if a student is going to pick a major with a negative ROI, or make crappy grades, or refuse to network, intern, coop, etc?

9/27/2011 9:46:26 AM

Quote :

"Just curious... what is everybody paying a month and for what degrees?"

I pay $130/month on my loans, throw some extra on when I can. My interest rate is only 3% so I'm focusing on other debt first.

9/27/2011 9:47:34 AM

Quote :

"What makes you say this? How are the banks/govt supposed to know if a student is going to pick a major with a negative ROI, or make crappy grades, or refuse to network, intern, coop, etc?"

Very easy adjustments can account for these factors. If you get low grades, your access to loans for subsequent semesters or years can be cut off, or increased in price (interest rate). From the beginning, loan rates and terms can be different for each major. Similarly, students at schools with a high default rate would have to pay more. Get a co-op in your field? Reduce the interest rate. Graduate on time? Reduced interest rates retroactively as a reward. There are a ton of creative solutions.

All of these things would bring rationality back into the system. Prices would be lower, resources would be allocated better across the economy, and we wouldn't have 17,000,000 people with degrees doing jobs that don't require a degree. http://chronicle.com/blogs/innovations/why-did-17-million-students-go-to-college/27634

9/27/2011 9:56:01 AM

Finally, a reasonable idea. This is the kind of stuff I'd like to see. Cutting the problem off at it's source opposed to the whole "let student loans be discharged in bankruptcy" argument.

9/27/2011 10:00:00 AM

What if they treated school loans like mortgages and took your degree away if you went bankrupt??

9/27/2011 10:00:55 AM

^^^ I would definitely agree with a lot of that

[Edited on September 27, 2011 at 10:03 AM. Reason : ]

9/27/2011 10:03:46 AM

Interesting link

Quote :

"I have long been a proponent of Charles Murray’s thesis that an increasing number of people attending college do not have the cognitive abilities or other attributes usually necessary for success at higher levels of learning. "

9/27/2011 10:28:45 AM

Sounds like Dave is pushing for better secondary education!

9/27/2011 10:42:20 AM

Quote :

"Very easy adjustments can account for these factors. If you get low grades, your access to loans for subsequent semesters or years can be cut off, or increased in price (interest rate). From the beginning, loan rates and terms can be different for each major. Similarly, students at schools with a high default rate would have to pay more. Get a co-op in your field? Reduce the interest rate. Graduate on time? Reduced interest rates retroactively as a reward. There are a ton of creative solutions. All of these things would bring rationality back into the system. Prices would be lower, resources would be allocated better across the economy, and we wouldn't have 17,000,000 people with degrees doing jobs that don't require a degree. http://chronicle.com/blogs/innovations/why-did-17-million-students-go-to-college/27634"

Ding ding ding.

And as for default on student loans: If you default after graduation, you lose your degree. There's a tangible asset to lose. If you default at any time, you are barred from further financial aid for (x) years, making it nearly impossible to repeat the mistake again.

Combine that with performance incentives like Tulip advised and I think we'd be on to something. Hell, we could setup our own student loan association to do just that

9/27/2011 1:39:20 PM

Why can't I just have free money?

9/27/2011 1:41:33 PM

^^^

Haha. Now, now, the Deltas and Epsilons have their place in society.

9/27/2011 1:49:31 PM

Quote :

"And as for default on student loans: If you default after graduation, you lose your degree. There's a tangible asset to lose. If you default at any time, you are barred from further financial aid for (x) years, making it nearly impossible to repeat the mistake again."

Does the employer really care if you "lost your degree"? You didn't lose any of the knowledge gained. You can still truthfully state that you took all the classes, passed them, and are at least somewhat qualified.

All these suggestions sound great, but they aren't going to happen. Who would implement them? The universities? Nope. The banks? LOL. You can hope all day long that we use these "creative solutions," but no one with the power to make those changes has any incentive at all to do so. The people profiting from this student loan debacle are going to keep the gravy train rolling as long as possible.

[Edited on September 27, 2011 at 2:00 PM. Reason : ]

9/27/2011 2:00:28 PM

There have been lawyers (I think in Texas and maybe Mass.) who were disbarred for being unable to pay their student loans because they couldn't find work, so this "lose your degree" thing isn't too far off from reality in some cases.

9/27/2011 3:05:11 PM

I think it was in Ohio because he failed the Character and Fitness Mandate.

9/27/2011 3:30:59 PM

Quote :

"Does the employer really care if you "lost your degree"? You didn't lose any of the knowledge gained. You can still truthfully state that you took all the classes, passed them, and are at least somewhat qualified. All these suggestions sound great, but they aren't going to happen. Who would implement them? The universities? Nope. The banks? LOL. You can hope all day long that we use these "creative solutions," but no one with the power to make those changes has any incentive at all to do so. The people profiting from this student loan debacle are going to keep the gravy train rolling as long as possible. "

No, but it does make a difference. Having the "piece of paper" means a lot to most folks.

They definitely won't happen with naysayers like yourself running the show. No one is "hoping" anything, we are having a conversation about possible remedies. It's called brainstorming and problem solving. Implementation is altogether different.

You can have your pessimist view all you like, but I'd bet there'd be a lot of people on all side interested in ending the "gravy train" as you put it.

9/27/2011 3:50:51 PM

^^http://www.smallfirmsuccess.org/ethics/small-firm-ethics-issues/lawyer-disbarred-for-defaulting-on-student-loans

Looks like it was Texas but yeah, it was a character and fitness thing

9/27/2011 3:58:20 PM

http://abovethelaw.com/2011/01/character-fitness-fail-for-graduate-with-no-plan-to-pay-off-his-debts/

9/27/2011 4:12:35 PM

Welp looks like it's happening all over then

Good to know

9/27/2011 4:13:25 PM

Quote :

"They definitely won't happen with naysayers like yourself running the show. No one is "hoping" anything, we are having a conversation about possible remedies. It's called brainstorming and problem solving. Implementation is altogether different. You can have your pessimist view all you like, but I'd bet there'd be a lot of people on all side interested in ending the "gravy train" as you put it."

Haha. So, so naive.

There are a lot of regular people that would be interested in ending the gravy train. None of those people have the power to do it. Private banks pretty much run things in the developed world.

You apparently skimmed over what I said before. Student loans are currently a zero risk proposition for the banks. The government will not allow the loans to be defaulted on. Banks can only make money on a student loan. There are no other possibilities. There is no risk of loss.

This model doesn't need reform. It needs to be eliminated, and a market-driven model needs to replace it.

[Edited on September 27, 2011 at 4:46 PM. Reason : ]

9/27/2011 4:40:56 PM

^I'm not naive at all. Everything you said is completely true. That doesn't mean a discussion about alternatives and solutions is stupid or a waste.

If you think it is, feel free to just stop reading.

9/27/2011 6:38:28 PM

10/3/2011 5:25:16 PM

Wait, you're supposed to consider the cost-to-benefit ratio of your education? I thought you just went to the most expensive school you could get into, got any degree, and assumed it would all work out.

10/3/2011 5:50:10 PM

as someone who works in the financial aid dept of a college, i find that graph to be so incorrect and outdated on so many levels that i dont know where to even begin dissecting it

the federal default rate on the chart is way off and default in no way helps a school. If any title IV receiving institution has too high of a default rate, they can lose their ability to give title iv to students. It is true you should look to decrease your expenses, maximize your income and minimize the total amount that you borrow, but anyone can slap together a bullshit flow chart to show everything wrong with student loans today.

[Edited on October 5, 2011 at 12:59 AM. Reason : ..]

10/5/2011 12:51:38 AM

So what I got from that hippie chart is that they would be happy if you could go to school, rack up hundreds of thousands of dollars in student loan debt, then declare bankruptcy upon graduation. That or allow everyone to default on taking out a loan with no penalty.

These people are our future.










God damn it.

10/5/2011 7:23:11 AM

More disappointingly, you are our present.

10/5/2011 7:54:05 AM

Yeah, I'm going to have to pay for all of these hippies when they kick back on welfare

10/5/2011 8:20:08 AM

While we're at it, let's get rid of that too.

10/5/2011 11:17:53 AM

BSA

Bootstrap States of America

10/5/2011 11:31:30 AM

Quote :

"as someone who works in the financial aid dept of a college, i find that graph to be so incorrect and outdated on so many levels that i dont know where to even begin dissecting it"

Just start with your strongest point, then.

Quote :

"the federal default rate on the chart is way off and default in no way helps a school. If any title IV receiving institution has too high of a default rate, they can lose their ability to give title iv to students. It is true you should look to decrease your expenses, maximize your income and minimize the total amount that you borrow, but anyone can slap together a bullshit flow chart to show everything wrong with student loans today."

The point isn't that default helps the school, it's that they're really not on the hook for any of the losses. The federal government is now backing 100% of student loans. No one except the student is at any risk of losing anything.

Quote :

"So what I got from that hippie chart is that they would be happy if you could go to school, rack up hundreds of thousands of dollars in student loan debt, then declare bankruptcy upon graduation. That or allow everyone to default on taking out a loan with no penalty."

Except if this were done, student loans would dry up fast. No creditor in their right mind would extend loans if default were the "easy way out" - and so they just wouldn't extend loans except in very specific cases. This would be the best thing that could possibly happen - we'd revert back to a system where market forces are bringing down tuition to a level that students can reasonably pay, rather than a system where the price is being bid up all the time.

10/5/2011 11:50:55 AM

http://www.naceweb.org/research/salary_survey/

This is the probably the most common source for 'average salary offer' information for college grads.

Almost every university, including State, publishes these numbers on admissions pages as bait. The departmental pages for each major often cite the breakdown for that major.

I would call these statistics laughably unbelievable, but they are believed. It takes a cynical college grad in a tough market to look back at them and see the flaw that should have been clear.

Nobody should care about the 'average salary offer.' Companies will only report the offers they've made for positions that require a college degree and target new grads, not their average offer to folks who just graduated and applied to be a customer service rep.

The relevant statistic would be "median annual pay six months after graduation" for all graduates in that major. And at this point, those numbers might be HALF of what is touted.

They say that the average salary offer for a business management grad is $46k. People read that and think they'll be fine, because they are gullible. But there is no way in hell that is anywhere near the expected salary for your standard business major (not hating on them, I was a Finance guy).

"Offers" for new college grads in customer service, retail sales, and warehouse work are not included in that $46k number, yet they are probably more representative of the median job after graduation than the things that offer $46k.

A dozen ABA-accredited law schools are being sued for using misleading (or outright false) numbers for earnings after graduation, and it's time that the NACE or a bunch of universities got hit on that as well.

[Edited on October 8, 2011 at 3:24 AM. Reason : s]

10/8/2011 3:23:08 AM

Can you post the info? I don't have an account.

10/8/2011 11:42:03 AM

I don't have an account or the full report, but some news articles report specific numbers. Here is one: http://www.staffingindustry.com/Research-Publications/Daily-News/Grads-Average-Salary-Offer-Now-51-171

The main sentence on the NACE page has all the lies necessary to prove the point:

Quote :

" The overall average salary offer to Class of 2011 graduates has risen 6 percent over last year’s average from $48,288 to $51,171"

Most people will read that and assume that if they borrow, say, $20-25k for their education (which is roughly the average for those who borrow), then they are borrowing less than half their expected first year salary. In reality, they could be borrowing the full median income for new graduates in their major.

The notion that the average 22 or 23 year old fresh college graduate gets an offer for that amount isn't even in the same ballpark, or the same universe, as the truth. For engineering and some hard sciences, the numbers probably hold up a lot better, but are still fluffed.

Career services departments and the NACE don't receive "average salary offer" reports from a bank's call center that just hired a college graduate at $12/hr.

Ha, I'll put it another way: according to this report, we are led to believe that the average fresh college graduate at 23 years old makes more than the median combined household income in the United States by himself. If that's not laughably false, I don't know what is.

[Edited on October 8, 2011 at 1:23 PM. Reason : a]

10/8/2011 1:14:16 PM