Doeren is basically what we thought TOB was. Boring as fuck - beats the shit teams, loses to the better teams and (so far) loses to other roughly average teams. Why even play the fucking season if it's already determined on paper before the year?

At least TOB would fuck up and lose to BC or Wake then make up for it by beating FSU

11/28/2015 11:30:30 PM

Maybe its just me but i actually appreciate consistency and knowing the team is going to show up each week and do their best.

11/29/2015 12:51:26 AM

^^ excellent thesis:

DD = TOB
TOB != DD

11/29/2015 1:09:23 AM

Doeren gets one more year, but he better have a plan B for OB because McCLendon this yer looked like a poor man version of Jacoby. Fire Huxtable and bring in quality receivers and another kicker. Next year the run game should be solid, I mean we lost our top two running backs and still put up good yards, but we need some more explosive receivers that can make big plays to make our offense more dynamic.

11/29/2015 1:11:15 AM

losing hines hurt BAD

11/29/2015 4:34:59 AM

Quote :

"Fire Huxtable "

^^ you've got the wrong coordinator. Fire Canada

11/29/2015 7:44:53 AM

Fire both of them.

11/29/2015 8:44:57 AM

Whatever the Kiker was doing wrong seems to at least be fixed a little bit over the last few games. Did he finally ditch that idiotic sideways run up?

11/29/2015 9:33:35 AM

Quote :

"^^ excellent thesis: DD = TOB's perception TOB != TOB perception"

11/29/2015 9:34:42 AM

Losing Bo Hines was a huge hit to our passing game. And then losing Shadrach was something we never really recovered from. Dayes still had a great year up until his injury and the other guys did fine in their absence, but Shadrach could've given us an All ACC, between the tackles type back. I'm willing to cut Doeren/Canada some slack for those losses, but we need some WR's badly. At the same time though, why in the hell did we rarely ever target Grinnage this year?

Defense has got to get better. Against teams with good offenses we got absolutely torched and against teams that didn't have good offenses we still gave up some huge, gash type plays that swung the game against State (like the Louisville game).

11/29/2015 9:36:44 AM

Im not a huge fan so far, but losing your top 2 RBs when we all knew the WRs werent exactly world beaters killed us this year. We couldnt eat up clock to limit fast paced offenses like Carolinas and Clemsons.

Our dbs got exposed multiple times.... dont know if coaching can help much with DBs that run a 4.8 40

11/29/2015 9:38:01 AM

twitter search for "grinnage" yields about the same sentiment.

Quote :

"Need to find Grinnage before game 7 or 8 next year."

Quote :

"@PackRadio why aren't we targeting David Grinnage more this season?"

Quote :

"Canada should be fired for not throwing to to Grinnage 30 times a game lol"

Quote :

"@PackFootball Grinnage needs about 10 passes thrown his way a game."

Quote :

"Another thing that has pissed me off all year - not using Grinnage more. Idiotic"

Quote :

"Freaking Grinnage. You know, it'd be cool if we threw to him a bit more."

11/29/2015 9:58:42 AM

Quote :

"if UNC can replace their DC and improve 100 yards and 10+ ppt so can (should) NC State"

Are you fucking kidding me? Our defense wasn't fantastic but at no point were we ever as bad UNC last year. Improving 100 yards would put us 20 yards per game better than the current #1 defense (BC) and 10 points per game better would have us as the #2 scoring defense (Wisconsin).

Quote :

"if we don't start wining some of these Louisville VT UNC games"

For god sakes UNC is having possibly its best season ever and we beat them last year. I'm as upset that we didn't have a better season as anyone but again, top two backs down and unexpected loss of our best receiver from last year hurt this team

11/29/2015 11:46:53 AM

^they mean that. Look at the last page. Giving up big plays to unc and clemson is unacceptable. We need those type of defensive numbers to compete for the national championship everyone is demanding. Its been 3 years and we want our national chsmpionship AND WE WANT IT NOW.

We can obviously just change a few coaches arpund and have a national championship hope.

Our fans are worse than lsu. We have about the same year and are freaking out like they are over it.

11/29/2015 12:32:17 PM

Do not feed

11/29/2015 2:10:11 PM

I dunno... I find myself agreeing a lot with the E Man lately... what the hell is going on..

11/29/2015 2:11:11 PM

Quote :

" Losing Bo Hines was a huge hit to our passing game "

When I said that last year most shrugged it off that he was an un-explosive non-athletic receiver.
The thing is I never saw him drop a pass and he always would find the sweet spot in coverage to
bail Jacoby out when the pocket collapsed. Jacoby has had some questionable passing, but a lot of the
times he goes though progressions and zero receivers are open.

Quote :

" you've got the wrong coordinator. Fire Canada "

Defense is bad and there's no other way to cut it. Giving up 35 points in the first quarter is a
disgrace. They did better the other 3 quarters, but come one how do you expect to win a game
giving up 35 points. If an offense have an average running and passing game they will beat us. Look
wat Louisville and VT did to our defense for crying out loud. However, I wouldn't mind getting a new OC. With
the talent we got we shouldn't have so many scoreless quarters like we did this year.

Quote :

" twitter search for "grinnage" yields about the same sentiment. "

I honestly thought he transferred because I couldn't figure out why I never saw him much this season when he
was a very reliable target last season. Its almost like the coaching staff concentrated so much on the rush game
that they forgot about him. Also, why no more Locklear? He seems to run his routes well and get open, why not play him more except for the one or two plays a game in which he appears?

11/29/2015 2:33:57 PM

Yeah I tend to agree with e man in these football threads. It's weird

11/29/2015 2:34:37 PM

you guys know e man is trolling so when we stumble our way to a 4-4 conference season one year he can come in and say I TOLD YOU SO then disappear the next year when we're back to below .500 garbage again

11/29/2015 4:10:06 PM

Quote :

"Doeren is basically what we thought TOB was. Boring as fuck - beats the shit teams, loses to the better teams and (so far) loses to other roughly average teams. Why even play the fucking season if it's already determined on paper before the year? At least TOB would fuck up and lose to BC or Wake then make up for it by beating FSU"

I don't know that he is boring. We just have ok talent right now and an average QB. That means we will finish around .500. Calling a WR reverse pass to the QB on every play wouldn't cure our problems.

11/29/2015 4:46:33 PM

^^When were we even close to .500? We got destroyed in all the games we needed to win to even be considered mediocre. But you know, we lost a wide receiver last year. No way we can compete with that type of attrition.

Quote :

"compete for the national championship everyone is demanding."

I don't think any rational person would expect to be competing for a national championship. But we should expect to compete for conference and at the very least, division championships. If we aren't going to make that our goal, then we just need to put an exciting high scoring offense out there. Regardless, Doeren has shown that he is not the man to accomplish either of these things.

[Edited on November 29, 2015 at 4:55 PM. Reason : 1]

11/29/2015 4:54:24 PM

Quote :

"I don't think any rational person would expect to be competing for a national championship. But we should expect to compete for conference and at the very least, division championships."

Those all mean the same thing

11/29/2015 5:08:20 PM

this dude hasn't won shit. e man wants to act like if we wait a few more years, we'll be going 10-2 every year. based on...hope? MAC record?

11/29/2015 5:11:38 PM

66.666 (repeating, of course) of this guy's conference wins in 3 years have come against Wake Forest and Syracuse.


And he's won TWO conference games at Carter Finley Stadium in three years. I mean, I was happy enough after that first win at home, then he went out and got that second one. Whew! I feel so spoiled!

11/29/2015 7:33:31 PM

I like how Earl is a staunch DD supporter, yet wants Gottfried gone. That sentiment alone says it all.

11/29/2015 7:39:32 PM

I'm giving him until week 2 next year. if we lose on the road to ECU, I'm out

[Edited on November 29, 2015 at 8:09 PM. Reason : or if we were to lose that W&M opener as well lol]

11/29/2015 8:08:42 PM

Quote :

"his dude hasn't won shit. e man wants to act like if we wait a few more years, we'll be going 10-2 every year. based on...hope? MAC record?"

I'm not acting like anything. I'm just saying let this whole thing play out as long as we are seeing the positive trends that we've been seeing. Lets not act like we haven't won a lot of quarters against the best teams in the country. Lets not act like depth isn't a major issue.

Quote :

"And he's won TWO conference games at Carter Finley Stadium in three years. I mean, I was happy enough after that first win at home, then he went out and got that second one. Whew! I feel so spoiled!"

You either don't watch games or can't understand whats happening with our program. Anyone who speaks in absolutes based on meaningless stats is going to have trouble understanding dynamic context.

Quote :

"I like how Earl is a staunch DD supporter, yet wants Gottfried gone. That sentiment alone says it all."

I'm a staunch supporter of NC State. We hired these coaches and we're going to see what they can do. I don't think I ever said Gottfried should be gone but if i did it was probably in the heat of a moment. If you look back at all of my posts, you will see that I've been saying he gets a free pass if he has a bad year because he's had success. I criticize every coach and every player but that doesn't mean i want them gone.

With any coach you have to actually give them a chance to see if they can build success. You have to set parameters for what success is and wait and see if the coach meets them. Its pretty childish to just wait until you lose a rivalry game to say you want the coach gone on impulse.

I've said all along that next year is the first year to really judge DD and as long as the team didn't regress significantly, his seat can't be hot until 2017. The team has not regressed and I'm excited about the future considering we have a lot more room for improvement than our competition who are already having trouble beating us.

With Gott, as long as he continues to do what he's doing he's fine but a few missed tournaments and his seat will be red hot considering all of the talent he has blundered. If anything, expectations in basketball should be a little bit higher than football expectations. Thats just reality but my expectations and parameters are pretty even. Gottfried seems to be a great coach who just can't keep the best player from leaving every year and key role players from transferring. Without that problem, we'd be a top 10 team every year. Thats going to catch up with him before long if it continues and I'll be ready to move on after the next incoming class is gone and we are still squeezing into the tournament.

11/29/2015 8:17:22 PM

Quote :

"Lets not act like we haven't won a lot of quarters against the best teams in the country."

I like how it's important that we've won quarters, yet it's unimportant that we won zero conference games his first year

11/29/2015 8:50:00 PM

yeah i agree with e man on that. DD isn't setting the world on fire right now. but it's too soon to cut ties at this point. giving a coach only 3 years (2 of which were winning seasons) is generally not the recipe for success.

DD was basically building a program from the ground up when he took over. and the results have been ok - certainly not great. and i know using the "cupboard was bare" excuse sounds lame...but it's true. it takes more than 3 seasons to build a program. DD might not be the answer, but i'm not sure that you can make that call right now. i'm also pretty certain that if you can a coach after just 3 years, any potential coaching candidates that you'd hire might not be thrilled about the prospect of getting just 3 years to turn things around.

[Edited on November 29, 2015 at 8:50 PM. Reason : f]

11/29/2015 8:50:13 PM

He inherited a team with a winning record that was coming off of three straight bowl appearances.


Expectations were reasonably raised because we fired a coach who went 2nd, 4th, and 3rd in the Atlantic Division during his final three seasons.


So if this:

Quote :

"Those all mean the same thing"

Is true (in regards to us not expecting us to compete for the Atlantic Division, which in turn means a a shot at the ACC Championship and a top 15 finish), then it was fiscally irresponsible of us to fire a person who was getting the exact results we should realistically expect all the while being paid less.


I'm not in the fire Doeren camp, but he has showed us NOTHING in three years to suggest that we are going to be turning a corner anytime soon.


Does anyone realistically expect next year (year 4 of his tenure) to be any better than this season, while breaking in a new QB and playing an objectively more difficult Out of Conference schedule?


How does our recruiting compare to Louisville, Clemson, and FSU (all of whom are in our division)? If we can't outscheme these teams on the field, then it stands to reason that we'll have to out-recruit them. Is that happening?

11/29/2015 9:09:25 PM

i would say TOB only really competed for the division title one time in his tenure here. and that was in a down year for the division (winning team was 6-2, IIRC)

11/29/2015 9:14:03 PM

^^ this guy is good... nice and objective.

Quote :

"I'm not in the fire Doeren camp, but he has showed us NOTHING in three years to suggest that we are going to be turning a corner anytime soon. Does anyone realistically expect next year (year 4 of his tenure) to be any better than this season, while breaking in a new QB and playing an objectively more difficult Out of Conference schedule? How does our recruiting compare to Louisville, Clemson, and FSU (all of whom are in our division)? If we can't outscheme these teams on the field, then it stands to reason that we'll have to out-recruit them. Is that happening? "

bingo. To compete, State needs to go the GT route, or the Texas Tech route, or even the Baylor route... a unique, high octane offense that doesn't rely on more traditional things like out recruiting Clemson, FSU and UNC

[Edited on November 29, 2015 at 9:14 PM. Reason : d]

11/29/2015 9:14:27 PM

Quote :

"How does our recruiting compare to Louisville, Clemson, and FSU (all of whom are in our division)? If we can't outscheme these teams on the field, then it stands to reason that we'll have to out-recruit them. Is that happening?"

Please see the study that was just posted in the other thread. It addresses this question. The short answer is that the gap will still exist but will be significantly smaller than it has been the last 3 years.

11/29/2015 9:31:01 PM

Quote :

"He inherited a team with a winning record that was coming off of three straight bowl appearances."

he also inherited pete fucking thomas as his qb.

11/29/2015 9:37:43 PM

Quote :

"next year, the gap between us and UNC is virtually gone and we open up a huge lead over Wake and BC"

Sooo....what you're saying is, with our talent margins, we'll continue to expect wins over Wake and BC (and presumably Syracuse), continue to expect losses over FSU and Clemson, and games against UNC will remain a toss-up.


i.e....more of the same. Year after year. We can realistically expect to be in the middle of the Atlantic. Every year.


Got it.

11/29/2015 9:38:23 PM

can you point to the strawman who is suggesting we fire doeren?

11/29/2015 10:08:45 PM

Should have just kept TOB around. You assholes weren't satisfied with bowls and beating UNC.

11/29/2015 10:10:57 PM

Quote :

"i would say TOB only really competed for the division title one time in his tenure here. and that was in a down year for the division (winning team was 6-2, IIRC)"

I don't ever see us winning a conference title now. Our next chance will be whenever all of the good teams choke and go down hill again which results in us and Wake Forest being the best 2 teams in the league. That will be a while though. We're a lot like the Mississippi schools in the SEC. We could build a top 5 in the nation program and still always finish 3rd, or lower in our division.

11/29/2015 10:30:09 PM

you guys are talking like things don't change over time and thats your problem. beating unc with TOB is not the same as beating UNC now. We shouldn't even be comparing DD to TOB. If we are doing the same thing in year 5 then it will be time to get rid of DD but in year 3 it is impressive considering our young team will only get better with experience.

Do you think Alabama cuts their 1st and 2nd year players when they realize most of them aren't good enough to win the championship on the field right now? No. They don't even put those guys on the field until jr and sr year when they are ready.

[Edited on November 29, 2015 at 11:20 PM. Reason : no concept of time, development, and teams improving]

11/29/2015 11:18:06 PM

Let's not compare our current coach to our previous coach, let's instead compare our program to Alabama.

11/29/2015 11:43:51 PM

I'm comparing our program to our program and we are improving steadily over 3 years.

I used alabama as an example to help show you guys how football works.

11/29/2015 11:51:17 PM

I think you can replace "steadily" with "marginally."

On the field, we bottomed out his first year (blame whoever you would like for that one). This year we will have, AT BEST, matched our marginal improvement from last year if we win our bowl. You think we're going to see any jump in play next year with an unproven QB and a much tougher schedule?


And in terms of recruiting, even your graph shows that we made a gain and then plateaued when compared to the top dogs in our division. By using the numbers YOU provided for the past three recruiting cycles, we are averaging 37.333 (repeating, of course), while FSU is averaging 5.666 (repeating, of course), and Clemson is averaging 10.333 (repeating, of course).

And, using the numbers from Rivals, we're currently in 10th place in the ACC right now in terms of recruiting ranks (and yes, I know that number may change before signing day). And we are, predictably, behind FSU and Clemson once again.

So again, I ask you. How are we going to make gains in the Atlantic if the top two teams are consistently recruiting in the top 10-15 while we're sitting cozy in the mid 30's? How are we going to overcome that talent gap that will seemingly always be there?

I'll tell you. We'll have to make up that difference on the sidelines. Somehow, we'll have to do more with less. You really think this staff can pull that off?

11/30/2015 12:26:09 AM

You are looking at simgle points and not the trends in the graphs which defeats the whole purpose of the graphs. The idea is not that we will eliminate the talent gap. The idea is that as the talent gap becomes smaller, it will translate into improvements we can see on the field.

If we replace an 87th rank ed class with classes ranked in the 30s and 40s, we should see a lot of improvement.

Now with that 87th ranked class we had those teams on the ropes in the first half.i attribute us playing with top 10 teams despite having an 87th ranked class to coaching.

Lets see what those scenarios look like as our talent and depth gets bigger . If we can hang with them now, im excited to see what we can do with a sognificantly better (yet still present) talent disadvantage.

[Edited on November 30, 2015 at 12:40 AM. Reason : Look at the advantages they have after this year. Much more similar to what bc had over us this year]

11/30/2015 12:38:12 AM

come on guys, we're winning quarters

11/30/2015 12:44:02 AM

I agree with JesusHChrist, we fired a guy who finished 2,4,3 in his last three seasons at the helm and beat our rival, due to sagging season ticket sales and we weren't competing for ACC titles. Here comes Doeren who hasn't sniffed beating a team with a better record than us, while recruiting has improved and an indoor practice facility may help more in that area, we are going to either have to out coach Clemson and FSU or hope for some down years, and right now those two trains are Rollin pretty good. So?

11/30/2015 1:39:20 AM

I can't believe I'm saying this but I'm agreeing with E Man on this. Progress is being made, you people are just too damn fickle to care.

It's just dumb to fixate solely on Wins and Losses when evaluating how much this program has grown in 3 years. It's just as dumb to look back at the TOB years and pretend he played the same teams we play today in anything more than name.

11/30/2015 8:13:02 AM

Quote :

"I agree with JesusHChrist, we fired a guy who finished 2,4,3 in his last three seasons"

i think it's worth pointing out that in 2 of those 3 seasons you mentioned, the winner of the division had 2 ACC losses and were not competing for national titles. we were 4-4 in the latter 2 seasons with no real sign of improving...in fact, based on recruiting and returning players we were very likely headed for a drop off regardless of coaching. like ^ said...this ACC is pretty damn good compared to what it was 5 years ago. not that i think 3-5 should be the goal for us as a program, of course. but i just think you need to consider the entire picture.

Quote :

"due to sagging season ticket sales and we weren't competing for ACC titles."

honestly, i don't know what ticket sales were. but TOB was old and nearing retirement. he didn't recruit well at all. some of his staff didn't even bother recruiting at all (Tenuta). that, to me, was a huge reason for his firing.

[Edited on November 30, 2015 at 9:35 AM. Reason : k]

[Edited on November 30, 2015 at 9:44 AM. Reason : f]

11/30/2015 9:33:24 AM

Some conf record last two years I know, but Doeren HAS improved finish position every year. 7,5,4

[Edited on November 30, 2015 at 9:38 AM. Reason : A]

11/30/2015 9:38:34 AM

5-3 every year should be our goal in conference play. Wins over BC, Wake, Syracuse. Losses versus clemson and FSU. 2-1 in the tossup games. That is where we need to get as a program before we can think about taking the next step.

11/30/2015 10:01:19 AM

Quote :

"Should have just kept TOB around. You assholes weren't satisfied with bowls and beating UNC."

Once again packboozie is a complete idiot

11/30/2015 10:29:05 AM