I don't really consider The Hound a "bad guy", hes just doing what it takes to survive in the incredibly harsh world they are living in. He's gonna turn Arya into a badass

His brother on the other hand...

4/21/2014 3:32:06 PM

^Agreed. We can't really project our current social norms onto their society because they grew up in an almost lawless world where the biggest (or richest) person wins. The Hound was right -- with all the stuff going on that man and his daughter wouldn't survive too long, especially if they are that nice, and especially with Winter coming. As ridiculous as it sounds, he showed the guy mercy by just not killing him.

On the topic of Ygrette, she wasn't really being a dick. She's a wildling soldier who grew up her entire life thinking that the folks on the other side of the wall hated her and her kind, and would kill her given the chance. Yeah, she knew that the people in the village were civilians but she still believed that they were monsters and even if she refused to fight that would mean the rest of the wildlings would have killed her.

4/21/2014 4:35:45 PM

the "good guys" do things that we consider good. the "bad guys" do things we consider bad. i'm not about to sit there and analyze the character's upbringing to try to justify their current actions.

i must say though, martin is good at developing morally ambiguous characters that you still want to root for.

4/21/2014 5:22:32 PM

It takes a lot of circular reasoning to for one to kill someone because they would kill you first, considering that you're the one attacking their village and they have never once tried to kill you or anyone you know of. I mean even the "Crows" as far as I know don't just come above the wall and indiscriminately wipe out wildling villages.

And she volunteered for the assignment from what I remember, I'm sure the slaughter of civilian villages did not catch her off guard

[Edited on April 21, 2014 at 5:50 PM. Reason : ]

4/21/2014 5:47:41 PM

Quote :

"I gotta be honest I was pretty entertained seeing Jamie rape his sister practically on top of the dead body of Joffrey. Really great to see him call her out for what she is."

wow

you're messed up

4/21/2014 7:19:03 PM

My favorite part of the episode was Tywin leading Tommen away from Cersei as she mourned Joffrey. Basically called her and Joff shitty rulers and put her right in her fucking place.

4/21/2014 9:58:26 PM

Tommen is an incest baby too, right?

4/22/2014 7:36:59 AM

yes

4/22/2014 7:42:36 AM

I didn't enjoy watching the rape scene but it didn't bother me like so many people are freaking out about, in general. It goes to his overall character that as much as he has changed, there are certain things about himself that can never be changed, ie his desire for his sister. I think that will be prevalent throughout the show too for other characters too - that no matter how much one changes, or tries to, they can never fully escape from the person they were.

4/22/2014 8:23:12 AM

Quote :

"wow you're messed up"

Perhaps my original comment was a bit too harsh and misogynistic. I don't approve of rape, however Cersei not getting her way and being disrespected & embarassed literally in front of her dead son I readily approved of.

4/22/2014 9:46:44 AM

4/22/2014 11:47:19 AM

Quote :

"Perhaps my original comment was a bit too harsh and misogynistic. I don't approve of rape, however Cersei not getting her way and being disrespected & embarassed literally in front of her dead son I readily approved of."

You don't approve of rape but you're glad Cersei "didn't get her way" as far as not being raped and are glad she was "disrespected." Okay...

4/22/2014 10:00:00 PM

Tywin and Tyrion continue to provide the best acting and scenes in the show. The scene with Pod...

4/22/2014 10:44:02 PM

Just to play devil's advocate here:

I mean I don't approve of murder but I wasn't horrified when Joffrey was murdered.

4/22/2014 10:45:50 PM

Similar to that, I had a friend respond to me watching Wolf of Wall Street one night that she couldn't justify watching that movie because of the objectification of women and rape scene. I responded to her "so does Game of Thrones get a pass because it is fiction?"

I don't think TKETeg used the best choice of words in either statement and may even dig himself further in a hole here, but there is definitely a moral ledge when watching this show of reveling in people getting what's coming to them.

That said, while no means no means no and I'm mad that after finally pulling for Jamie I'm now disgusted by him again bc no means no means no...it also seemed to me in how it was filmed that Cersei did consent before they switched scenes.

4/22/2014 11:20:51 PM

I'm more disturbed by the fact that you people are so worried over some bitch getting raped but don't care about all of the other horrible things that happen every single episode. This is Westeros, not Politically Correct "no means no" land. It's a TV show, relax. It's not some kind of moral commentary on the public's perception of rape in the 21st century. We're OK with the fact that they are brother and sister who repeatedly have children together, but when she says No to having sex next to her dead son, UH OH WHERE IS MY RAPE WHISTLE

[Edited on April 23, 2014 at 12:17 AM. Reason : .]

4/23/2014 12:08:13 AM

yeah that rape scene is, by far, not the most despicable thing a character has done on this show...

4/23/2014 1:24:33 AM

^^never said I didn't care about other things that have happened; you're putting words in my mouth. Nor do I really care about this one because it's just a television show and I'm of the "shows/music/movies/video games don't influence people in doing stupid shit" camp; I'm only talking about this scene right now. Overall...I agree with you. This isn't the worst thing to happen. I actually really enjoyed this read after the backlash of the rape scene on the internet. http://www.awardsdaily.com/tv/the-pointless-outrage-at-game-of-thrones-rape-scene/

But! If I wanted I think can and should be able to talk and be mad about this scene right now (ya know, bc it just happened) and still give you a list of far worse shit that has happened (in my opinion) if you would like (rhetorical). I don't think anyone (ITT) is getting overly up in arms about this moreso than any thing else; I think it's just being talked about bc...well it *just* happened in the show. (And what started the discussion of it: TKE-Teg's poor word choice)

[Edited on April 23, 2014 at 6:49 AM. Reason : ]

4/23/2014 6:28:59 AM

I'm sure those men were saying No while they were being burned alive also

4/23/2014 7:22:29 AM

cmon people. thats why we watch it, because of all the fucked up shit that happens.

and when one of the assholes of the show gets some bad medicine, it is satisfying because its the only punishment we have seen them get.

4/23/2014 7:37:49 AM

the outrage over the rape scene is that it was so different from what happened in the book and there have been numerous other instances of violence towards women in the show that were not in the book that added little or nothing to the actual plot of the show.

4/23/2014 7:44:51 AM

HBO loves pushing for "shock-factor" in some of their shows, so not sure why anyone is surprised that a scene like this would be modified a little. True Blood would adapt the show all the time from the source material to add in crazy over-the-top sex scenes just to push shock-factor on it's viewers to get them talking.

Plenty of references to rape and think of the environment/circumstances. I get the book purists being upset that it gave a different tone, but even the Director said he was going more for the book and it was poorly edited and looked more like rape than he intended. Haven't read the books so can't voice an opinion on the matter, but when I was watching it I thought "yeah that seems about right for Martin to write."

4/23/2014 8:09:54 AM

I can see your point. Have their been scenes in which men were more brutally attacked or treated than they were in the books? I don't know the answer to this but I only mention it because it provides context. Treating women worse in the televised version as compared to the books may mean nothing if the same applies to men.


I'm going to guess that the answer to that question is going to be, yes the series adds more brutality toward men but not the same degree of additional sexual objectification. To me, that additional objectification isn't a testament on the show as much as it is a testament on our culture as a whole.

Men and women alike tend to enjoy seeing women sexualized, albeit to varying degrees, and as a result shows include it because it drives ratings. Being mad and angry at the show does nothing. If deemed wrong, it's something that needs to be addressed with society as a whole rather than misdirected outrage at a fictional tv series known for shock value.

4/23/2014 8:24:36 AM

If it was on a TV show I can do it in real life! I am going to start murdering bad guys now, drive into a storm and become a logger!

4/23/2014 8:38:10 AM

the most glaring example is that daenrys's first sex with drogo in the book is consensual and is much less so in the show. this totally changes the dynamic of their relationship and the empowerment of daenrys

4/23/2014 8:53:35 AM

The death of Rob Stark's wife was more brutal in the show than the books.

4/23/2014 8:55:33 AM

did she even die in the books?

4/23/2014 9:11:21 AM

Quote :

"But! If I wanted I think can and should be able to talk and be mad about this scene right now (ya know, bc it just happened) and still give you a list of far worse shit that has happened (in my opinion) if you would like (rhetorical). I don't think anyone (ITT) is getting overly up in arms about this moreso than any thing else; I think it's just being talked about bc...well it *just* happened in the show. (And what started the discussion of it: TKE-Teg's poor word choice) "

Yes poor word choice. Let me put it this way:

I was glad to see Cersei be put in her place. Happy that it was done via rape? No b/c rape is fucked up. I still liked the end result of her embarrassment though - again NOT b/c of the rape.

Also I think StillFushcia has a stick up her ass, GTFO over it and stop trying to seek out misogyny where it doesn't exist.

4/23/2014 9:36:45 AM

Maybe my rape radar is off, I felt that she got into it once she realized it was going down.

4/23/2014 9:44:40 AM

Quote :

"Plenty of references to rape and think of the environment/circumstances. I get the book purists being upset that it gave a different tone, but even the Director said he was going more for the book and it was poorly edited and looked more like rape than he intended. Haven't read the books so can't voice an opinion on the matter, but when I was watching it I thought "yeah that seems about right for Martin to write.""

Martin's books are far less misogynistic than the show, which is why everyone's complaining

Which is not to say that Martin is somehow a truly defensible writer of women (the number of sex scenes in his books can be seen as just as pervy and exploitative even though they're mostly completely consensual), but he is definitely not nearly as cruel as the show makers are twisting his material into

Because it's generally a dark show, I don't really feel like rape is out of the realm of possibility. But if you're going to go there, make it matter- this scene in general is already fucked up enough (sex next to child's corpse!) that I don't think it really adds anything to the story. Even more so because we already saw them have a discussion about the fact that she doesn't want to have sex with him in the previous episode

Quote :

"Also I think StillFushcia has a stick up her ass, GTFO over it and stop trying to seek out misogyny where it doesn't exist."

I will get the fuck out over it

next time, say what you mean and people won't think you're such a troglodyte

4/23/2014 10:16:58 AM

People are complaining about this show due to the rape scene, but everybody was ok with Theon's brutal torture and his dick getting chopped off?

Kinda hypocritical.

4/23/2014 10:55:28 AM

I've had a couple sex scenes in the book get completely ruined by my image of GRRM's fatass sitting behind the computer typing up the scene

4/23/2014 10:56:27 AM

Theon was also raped by one girl prior to his dick getting cut off.

4/23/2014 1:13:57 PM

^^ Not sure why that would bother you, unless you're trying to use the scenes for beat material, which I certainly wouldn't put past you.

4/23/2014 1:47:57 PM

Quote :

"I can see your point. Have their been scenes in which men were more brutally attacked or treated than they were in the books? I don't know the answer to this but I only mention it because it provides context. Treating women worse in the televised version as compared to the books may mean nothing if the same applies to men."

^^already mentioned, but Theon's entire plot arc last season was pointlessytorture porn. AND he was raped once and almost raped in the forest.

But also, almost every whorehouse scene can be considered rape since they have no ability to say no, at least not in Littlefinger's establishment. Brienne was almost raped as was the serving girl in that pub a few eps back. Tywin and Joffrey each threatened to rape Sansa. The Dothraki were basically a horde of rapists. Point being that pointless rape happens all the time on this show, why is this instance more egregious/outrageous/upsetting?

[Edited on April 23, 2014 at 8:04 PM. Reason : A]

4/23/2014 7:51:00 PM

What about the prostitute that got a bat wrapped in pointy stuff shoved in her cookie jar...

and the dick slicing thing was terrible

4/24/2014 9:01:10 AM

Quote :

"Also I think StillFushcia has a stick up her ass"

What's new?


Finally saw the episode last night and I'm trying to figure out what everyone is getting so worked up about? Probably the least "rapey" rape scene in the series so far. Seems like Cersei kept going back and forth on whether or not she wanted it. I'd only call it rape because of what Jamie was saying and how he really got forceful at the end. I don't remember the details of the book very well (It's been about three years)...but I don't think the differences were that drastic.

4/24/2014 11:39:32 AM

http://www.themarysue.com/game-of-thrones-rape-discussion/

4/24/2014 6:04:12 PM

"I'd only call it rape because of what I was saying and how I really got forceful at the end."
"Not guilty!"
frat bros everywhere cheer

4/25/2014 1:40:51 AM

I keep seeing this stupid argument all over:

Quote :

"Victoria: Well, murder victims aren’t exactly watching Game of Thrones like rape victims might potentially be. You know, because murder victims are dead."

4/25/2014 1:42:54 AM

so something is only distasteful if it makes someone relive a horrible memory? I guess we shouldn't show any television shows or movies in which child abuse takes place.

i can only imagine that people who create and (more so) repeat arguments such as that one are victims or a knee jerk reaction. They come up with a quick, yet logically inconsistent argument to validate their position rather than having a valid position that was based on a previously established argument.

4/25/2014 10:19:13 AM

If you want to talk about logic, how logical is it for a bunch of men to tell some upset women they're not allowed to be upset about portrayal of women and women's issues in media?

4/25/2014 4:18:11 PM

4/25/2014 4:36:10 PM

^^allowed??

4/25/2014 11:34:05 PM

pretty much??

most of what i've seen is basically

"I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY YOU'RE UPSET, WOMAN, IT'S LIKE YOU DON'T GET THE POINT OF THE SCENE, HERE, LET ME EXPLAIN WHY YOU'RE WRONG TO BE UPSET AND WHAT'S ACTUALLY GOING ON WITH IT"

which by the way also insults folks's intelligence

[Edited on April 26, 2014 at 12:12 AM. Reason : .]

4/26/2014 12:07:17 AM

What you describe is called "disagreeing" not "disallowing"

4/26/2014 1:25:55 AM

^I've yet to see anyone say women are "not allowed to be upset". Arguing or stating contrary opinions or asking a rhetorical question /= forbidding.

I certainly thought the scene was disturbing. Somewhat along the lines of what ^^^^^ said, I think the debates occur when people are "arguing" 2 different issues, but don't make their point clear from the beginning. i.e., Person A is discussing rape (and whether or not rape should be shown on television); Person B is discussing the portrayal of women's issues in media. Ends in a dead-end or mess.

4/26/2014 1:26:12 AM

jesus christ it's called hyperbole.

it goes a little beyond disagreeing, too.

it's 'disagreeing' in an extremely patronizing and myopic manner.

[Edited on April 26, 2014 at 12:51 PM. Reason : also 'telling someone they're not allowed' is not the same thing as literally 'disallowing']

4/26/2014 12:50:42 PM

I agree that you have a bleeding heart

4/26/2014 1:00:24 PM

good for you

4/26/2014 1:11:31 PM