Quote :

"And I can truthfully say, "No they won't." They will still argue that people can take their banners down but they can't take away what they accomplished."

Maybe if I was a college student in 1983 I would feel differently... but I would be pretty pissed as a State fan if the 1983 banner was retroactively taken down.

I guess if people lived it they could be like "suck it we still had a crazy party when we won who cares if they say it doesn't count" but I don't really care about that... I'm just counting championships. State has 2, and that is still very impressive nationally (30 fucking years later).

5/27/2015 4:25:46 PM

Quote :

"No one remembers the years that Lance Armstrong didn't finish first. But everyone remembers the years he cheated and won."

Exactly, It will be impossible for one of those cheating assholes to bring up a championship without someone being able to say "oh you mean one of the ones they got by cheating"

They may have those fond memories still, but they won't be able to enjoy them anywhere but in their own heads without someone else bringing up the cheating.

[Edited on May 27, 2015 at 4:28 PM. Reason : quote]

5/27/2015 4:27:34 PM

You punish all the supporters who will then push to have no violations in the future.

As a fan, i would love love love for banners to come down. The anytime I hear a UNC fan mention those chips I'll shut em down with CHEATED. Short of State winning, not much in sports would give me more joy

[Edited on May 27, 2015 at 4:28 PM. Reason : A]

[Edited on May 27, 2015 at 4:29 PM. Reason : ^right ]

5/27/2015 4:28:15 PM

We'd also have an impressive 44-game win streak.

Not counting times we met in the ACC tourney so probably close to 50 games.

5/27/2015 4:30:34 PM

I mean if you rob a bank it's not like you get to keep the money when you get caught.

"I was a millionaire!"

5/27/2015 4:33:10 PM

Quote :

"TAINTED WITH DISDAIN"

and

Quote :

"Short of State winning, not much in sports would give me more joy"

sums up my opinion quite nicely.

5/27/2015 4:37:33 PM

Quote :

"No recruit gives two shits about the 82 banner."

A valid point, very true.

My mindset may be slightly different though... I judge teams by the championships only, and I view it as an ongoing competition.

I'll take the chance that UNC wins "legit" in the immediate future if it means we can subtract 1-3 banners from their total right now.

Edit: I want to be the one to use strike through on the wikipedia page for UNC Basketball once it happens.
NCAA Tournament champions
1957, 1982, 1993, 2005, 2009

[Edited on May 27, 2015 at 4:41 PM. Reason : .]

5/27/2015 4:40:37 PM

Quote :

"What % of the team needs to take what % of fake classes before the athletic "accomplishments" that year are considered forfeit?"

well, if just 1 player is ineligible then they could forfeit it all.

5/27/2015 4:48:04 PM

While it would be neat to take the banners, I agree that ultimately it doesn't really mean shit. It would be like them going back and changing my grades from college. I'm "succesful" now in my career, changing my college grades now wouldn't really mean shit.

Punish them now: post-season bans, reduced scholarships, make them hurt for years to come. As mentioned, any recruit that has committed to them in the last few years did so with full knowledge of what was going on and punishments could be coming (despite what Roy might have told them), they have no sympathy from me.

5/27/2015 5:18:43 PM

Quote :

"No recruit gives two shits about the 82 banner"

recruits on the 93 team did

recruits on the 05 team cared about the 93 banner

etc

5/27/2015 5:22:06 PM

Man, just think, if they took away their last three titles we would have won a championship more recently than them.

5/27/2015 6:17:16 PM

I think punishment should have the goal of deterring the action in question. Like I said before, if you allow a team to cheat for two decades, win 3 titles, and only ban them for a couple or future tourneys and let them keep their titles, who the hell wouldn't cheat?

Kind of like the robbery scenario earlier. "We caught you stealing a million dollars from the bank. We are going to put you in jail for a couple of years but we will let you keep the money". Chaos would ensue.

5/27/2015 10:35:29 PM

I vote for both

Removing banners AND hitting them with future sanctions

5/28/2015 7:27:28 AM

It's kinda like the spygate/ballghazi thing for me, they don't need to take away the Super Bowls, the taint on Brady and Belichick's legacy is good enough. Same for Roy and Dean, no one will look at them or those championships UNC won the same way again. No, you do what the NFL did to the Patriots, hurt them going forward.

5/28/2015 7:43:57 AM

Yeah I mean lets face it to anyone except Carolina fans they only have 2 titles now. It would be awesome to see them "officially" gone, but anytime anyone brings up anything carolina now my immediate response is well no that doesnt count you cheated. So if I had to choose I suppose I would prefer them to set their basketball program back 30 years like they did to us, despite our infractions being so tiny compared to this. Never again in my lifetime will a UNC fan be able to claim anything that happened in the past 30 years or so and I encourage everyone else to do the same.

5/28/2015 8:20:55 AM

Quote :

"But who are you seeking to punish? The institution? Or the athletes who committed the transgressions or the guilty staff? Or are you setting out to make an example out of them? Monetary sanctions, taking away championships and banners, and instituting high level oversight would punish the guilty. Giving the death sentence to the program would punish a lot of people, namely athletes, who were not involved. That's the only thing that gives me pause about punishing future teams. Unless you then give everyone an out (which I know they would), but quite a few of the lesser players wouldn't be able to secure transfers. "

The NCAA would let current athletes transfer, and it would have the most impact on the university even at the higher levels. removing banners and wins doesn't punish the institution any more than athletes, it's ineffective. Monetary sanctions hurt a little, but private donors will insulate them from feeling it.

5/28/2015 8:37:40 AM

^^
...except most people who watch basketball do not care at all. Or, more accurately, they do not know much about the UNC investigation or its extent (only that there is an investigation). It is a hot topic in the Triangle, but outside of a few other College cities, its is not reaching the same critical mass. If no banners come down, this all blows over after whatever slap on the wrist they get.

[Edited on May 28, 2015 at 8:41 AM. Reason : ]

5/28/2015 8:41:19 AM

I'm going to be pissed if at least 2 banners don't come down. 5 national championships puts a team into an elite group, the highest level of excellence in the sport. Having 2-3 puts you in a whole different category. Still good, but nowhere near where Carolina "thinks" they are right now.

That's a big knock against those smug bastards.

5/28/2015 9:01:35 AM

I guess there are two major opinions from what I've seen.

1) Those that want the university to suffer in recruiting and suck for several years to come based on the punishments (I am in this category).

2) Those that want the fanbase to suffer because they are tired of their arrogance.

While I understand point #2, I want UNC to SUCK at every major sport going forward. That is the biggest punishment in my eyes. I want UNC to have losing seasons. I want UNC to lose major recruits that they would normally get because the NCAA has ripped them a new asshole. However this can be accomplished needs to happen. I could care less about whether their fans are hurt by vacated wins. The future suffering of the entire program is what I want to see. Not reparations for the past.

5/28/2015 9:45:47 AM

^ Why can't it be both?

5/28/2015 9:51:58 AM

michigan still has not hung back up both chris webber final four banners. and thats just final four banners, not ncaa title ones. those were due to one player's actions over 2 years, and that program hit the graveyard for 20 years. so we saw retroactive punishment and future punishment given to michigan.

as stated 1000 times, when you compare this scandal to other teams' scandals (michigan, syracuse), and the punishments they got, this should get really, really ugly. but the gray area is the bias for unc that the ncaa has.

[Edited on May 28, 2015 at 10:00 AM. Reason : ]

5/28/2015 9:59:24 AM

The only other scandal that can match or possibly even top this would be SMU.

5/28/2015 10:40:45 AM

The banners should come down, but the problem is lack of evidence directly linking players on those teams (and Roy) to the scandal. The NCAA continues to insist the paper classes were an academic issues, which means players from those teams taking them doesn't necessarily translate to a direct violation. LOIC is easier because you can take into the account the length of time it went on, evidence that athletics officials knew and did nothing, that sort of thing. But to take away championships/wins you have to show direct participation in the scheme by coaches and players which is harder to do.

5/28/2015 11:10:13 AM

^
The emails and forged grades tell a different story. There's literally an email out there of Crowder(?) asking that regular students be added to the fake classes just so it could seem legit.

[Edited on May 28, 2015 at 11:18 AM. Reason : ]

5/28/2015 11:15:17 AM

Quote :

"I guess there are two major opinions from what I've seen. 1) Those that want the university to suffer in recruiting and suck for several years to come based on the punishments (I am in this category). 2) Those that want the fanbase to suffer because they are tired of their arrogance. "

That's a good way of describing it. Hopefully we get both.

I was gonna say that as a State fan I would much rather preserve our 2 NCAA titles in exchange for harsh penalties the next few years... but thinking about it now, if we CHEATED I wouldn't care about those titles. In fact, if we had 5 titles and 2 were tainted, I would want to get rid of the 2 to preserve the actual integrity of the other 3.

Maybe the State fan mindset is biased towards historic greatness instead of future chances of success


Regardless of what happens, if the banners stay up they are just testaments to systematic academic fraud.

5/28/2015 11:16:57 AM

Sepp Blatter took the road of Roy Williams and Butch Davis - I'm the president but can't know what everyone is doing under me so I'm innocent

5/28/2015 11:30:36 AM

Quote :

"Joe Ovies ?@joeovies 7m7 minutes ago When Folt was asked if the redacted NOA would be released today or tomorrow, the UNC chancellor said, “no.”"

5/28/2015 11:55:02 AM

Quote :

"Maybe the State fan mindset is biased towards historic greatness instead of future chances of success "

5/28/2015 12:01:34 PM

Quote :

"I am not being sarcastic here so don't flip out. I do not understand this sentiment. Taking the 82 banner from UNC does not change the fact that they beat Georgetown. It punishes no one. Everyone that lived during that era watching that team and celebrated that win, is not going to be punished at all unless you wipe their memory."

Yeah, it's just about taking away someone's bragging rights... which IMO a UNC fan's bragging rights are already gone. A UNC fan might not see it that way but they can go on seeing things however they want.

Quote :

"The only lasting, meaningful punishments are those that affect the near future of the affected program and restrict the university from bringing in talent. No recruit gives two shits about the 82 banner. No one comes to play for State because we won in 83... "

I agree. They built a program through cheating. I think most schools would jump at the opportunity to build a program via cheating, face some meaningless punishment, and then go about their day with their built up program intact.

[Edited on May 28, 2015 at 12:19 PM. Reason : -]

5/28/2015 12:16:52 PM

the fact that UNC still isn't discussing the allegations makes me think that they are pretty serious. If they weren't bad, it seems like UNC would have at least made a statement saying "see, they aren't so bad" as some PR control even if they were still in the process of redacting the report.

5/28/2015 1:39:10 PM

Taking away the 05 and 09 banners would be great. Roy would have zero titles and possibly retire from shame.

5/28/2015 2:05:00 PM

re: banners, you gotta think about in 10-15 years, younger fans and/or recruits won't know or care about the history of "tainted" championships, they'll just go to wikipedia and see them listed as actual championships. That definitely influences front running bandwagoners as much as current season performances.

Take them shits down, imho

5/28/2015 2:17:34 PM

This isn't an either/or scenario; the issues of banners and punishment are two separate things.

The NCAA has a well established history of looking at championships won where ineligible players participated, and stripping those championships from the teams who played ineligible players. If anything, that is the strongest precedent out of all this. UNC manipulated the system to keep ineligible players eligible, and any win in any game where one of these players participated must be vacated, period.

But that's not really a deterrent against this type of corruption/cheating. UNC has still benefited from above average performance/recruiting due to the nature of the academic scandal, even when they didn't win championships. A punishment is needed that is severe enough to discourage this type of institutional cheating ever again; not just from UNC, but from all NCAA member schools. Vacating wins/banners doesn't do that, there needs to be something else.

The banners need to come down, AND they need to be banhammered back to the stone age.

[Edited on May 28, 2015 at 2:40 PM. Reason : and]

5/28/2015 2:40:22 PM

http://www.wralsportsfan.com/unc-still-reviewing-notice-of-allegations-release-on-hold/14675256/

5/28/2015 3:58:04 PM

5/28/2015 4:25:58 PM

^lol, now that is perfect

5/28/2015 4:53:36 PM

if only that was roy williams in the gif hahah

5/28/2015 5:18:49 PM

5/28/2015 9:02:20 PM

I really wanted to talk sports with Baddour's son tonight. He is a nice guy, but I didn't realize he was a friend of a friend. It was very tempting though.

5/28/2015 10:35:53 PM

ok

5/28/2015 10:57:24 PM

Is that a picture or did Major Nelson just have bunch of pistols mounted under the bar for display?

5/29/2015 9:31:33 AM

^ lol

5/29/2015 10:04:13 AM

I'll be patiently waiting every Friday afternoon from here on out. Though I'd likely expect it to come out the day before the July 4th holiday.

5/29/2015 10:05:39 AM

I mean I'm not getting my hopes up for today since Folt came out yesterday and said it wasn't going to be out this week.....


but then I remember how they're a bunch of fucking liars and then I think it will probably come out tonight at 9:30 or something.

5/29/2015 10:07:20 AM

5 pm today and they will brag about how they got it done earlier than expected and should be commended for such great work ethic.

5/29/2015 10:08:47 AM

Folt is praying for a terrorist attack so they can release the findings

5/29/2015 10:16:07 AM

Or that 8.8 California earthquake that guy was predicting.

5/29/2015 10:23:15 AM

Quote :

"5 pm today and they will brag about how they got it done earlier than expected and should be commended for such great work ethic."

most likely scenario, imo. they missed their chance the other day with the FIFA news breaking

5/29/2015 11:16:13 AM

^8, I think that was what got Larry Hagman the role for J.R. haha.

5/29/2015 2:37:10 PM

Quote :

"Maybe if I was a college student in 1983 I would feel differently... but I would be pretty pissed as a State fan if the 1983 banner was retroactively taken down."

Why would you give a rat's ass? It's a stupid piece of fabric.

5/29/2015 2:43:36 PM