OK this is really boring. Watching Jon play poker is like watching old people have sex. On a brighter note, he just doubled up on 77 vs 22.

2/11/2006 5:19:11 PM

Quote :

"PokerStars Game #3938970350: Tournament #19573096, Hold'em No Limit - Level I (10/20) - 2006/02/11 - 17:36:18 (ET) Table '19573096 1' Seat #4 is the button Seat 1: dolan2678 (1490 in chips) Seat 2: Nash NCSU (1490 in chips) Seat 3: Iron Awe (1250 in chips) Seat 4: decipherXL (1470 in chips) Seat 5: cardhopper (1480 in chips) Seat 6: Notchjizzy4 (1480 in chips) Seat 7: bengiec (1970 in chips) Seat 8: alexsy (1370 in chips) Seat 9: KaZim (1500 in chips) cardhopper: posts small blind 10 Notchjizzy4: posts big blind 20 *** HOLE CARDS *** Dealt to Nash NCSU [Ts Th] bengiec: folds alexsy: calls 20 KaZim: folds dolan2678: folds Nash NCSU: raises 80 to 100 Iron Awe: folds decipherXL: folds cardhopper: folds Notchjizzy4: folds alexsy: calls 80 *** FLOP *** [7h Ah 5c] alexsy: checks Nash NCSU: bets 100 alexsy: calls 100 *** TURN *** [7h Ah 5c] [6c] alexsy: checks Nash NCSU: bets 200 alexsy: calls 200 *** RIVER *** [7h Ah 5c 6c] [9d] alexsy: checks Nash NCSU: checks *** SHOW DOWN *** alexsy: shows [6s 9s] (two pair, Nines and Sixes) Nash NCSU: shows [Ts Th] (a pair of Tens) alexsy collected 830 from pot *** SUMMARY *** Total pot 830 | Rake 0 Board [7h Ah 5c 6c 9d] Seat 1: dolan2678 folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 2: Nash NCSU showed [Ts Th] and lost with a pair of Tens Seat 3: Iron Awe folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 4: decipherXL (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 5: cardhopper (small blind) folded before Flop Seat 6: Notchjizzy4 (big blind) folded before Flop Seat 7: bengiec folded before Flop (didn't bet) Seat 8: alexsy showed [6s 9s] and won (830) with two pair, Nines and Sixes Seat 9: KaZim folded before Flop (didn't bet)"

fuckin joke canadians... guess i should not play tidly 5$sng's

2/11/2006 5:42:53 PM

Haha Jon just rivered a guy holding AK with his AQ, and is now in great position to get in the money.

2/11/2006 6:05:47 PM

Quote :

"** Dealing Flop ** [ 5h, Qh, Qc ] PearlJammed checks. MRPUTT1 checks. ** Dealing Turn ** [ Kh ] PearlJammed checks. MRPUTT1 checks. ** Dealing River ** [ Js ] PearlJammed bets [50]. MRPUTT1 folds. PearlJammed does not show cards. PearlJammed wins 190 chips"

had AK... nothing exciting

but yeah, that AQ was sweet Got some chips in the money there now.

My big one today is the $1k on pokerroom... 705 players. It's actually a 2-day event.

And last night's omaha session... I played a lot of tables for a long time... mostly 20/40 on party, and 30/60 on stars. I ended up a couple hundred. Then I got back online a couple hours later, played for about 30 minutes on stars, and lost my ass (that must be what Noid saw). I flopped a set first hand... tons of action, i knew there were flush draws / a straight out there, just looking for the board to pair (like 5 of us in on capped flop)... but no dice.

2/11/2006 7:18:04 PM

Quote :

"OK this is really boring. Watching Jon play poker is like watching old people have sex. On a brighter note, he just doubled up on 77 vs 22. "

yeah, gotta watch 4 or more tables at once if you dont want to die of boredom.




and jon, do you sat. into any of these big buyin tournaments like the 1k at PR or that 650 monte carlo sat. at PS earlier today?

2/11/2006 7:35:57 PM

nah... just buy in

2/11/2006 7:39:20 PM

came back from having only 2 BB headsup to win...

it was only a 5+.50 sng, but still

Everytime I was allin I had the better hand and it held up, I couldn't believe it.

2/11/2006 9:18:11 PM

back on a bunch of omaha tables (party and stars)... up about $1200 in first 30 minutes... hopefully this'll make up for my day of tourneys. I got a LONG ways to go though

2/12/2006 1:11:54 AM

Whew... pretty sure I ended about even in omaha... BUT I won the last tourney of the day I was in, a $109 on party for $11k!

Even with that win, I ended up only up about $6,500 on the day. Wow, I was down a lot.

I got a TWW email a few minutes ago asking for advice on online tourney play. I typed more than I expected to in the response, and there's a lot of valuable infomation here although I expect most of you know most of it already. I might as well post it here too... I didn't go into too much detail, but I just touched on a lot of important concepts in mtt's. Please feel free to comment on any of it, whether you agree or feel differently.

Quote :

"quick answer, selective aggression... experience is so key though. You gotta kinda learn when you should bluff by feel. Oh, and small check/raise bluffs are often worth it to try if u smell weakness. Also, follow up your preflop raises with bluffs when u have nothing... but not when you have a hand like AK or AQ and miss... u don't mind checking there. But keep all your bluffs fairly small (half pot or a little less is usually good enough)... then you can give up on the hand without losing too much if you're called or played back at. Bluffing is NOT near as big a part of tourneys as a lot of people think though. Also in tourneys, once blinds are 25/50 or above AND your stack is less than approx. 20 times the bb, you should NEVER limp if you're first in the pot... always raise, and I like ~2.5x the bb as my raise no matter what the blinds are. Always raise the same amount preflop too, no matter the position or your cards. Speaking of the cards, I'll raise with AJ, AQ, AK, KQ, ANY pair, or ANY suited connectors or one gappers 45 and up... raising and playing your suited connectors after the flop is an extremely important skill in tourneys that takes a long time to master. This is also EXTREMELY important... when you raise, and get reraised ALL IN by a short stack, you must weigh the pot odds no matter what your cards are. In most situations, I'll call with just about anything, including 45suited or 22 if I'm getting about 2:1 pot odds on the call. I get in a lot of situations where a short stack is all in against me where he has the best hand preflop. But it's so often worth it to call if you're getting 2:1 or so on your money. This is a reason that I rarely raise with weak aces. (it sucks to call an all in with A8o when that short stack will pretty much always push with AT - AK... you're much better off having 46suited there against him than A6o). Oh, and this is key... NEVER steal from the button or the blinds (everyone suspects you're stealing) I never raise from the button in tourneys AT ALL unless I'm willing to call an all in if a blind pushes back. All of my advice is for tourneys only... and damn, that was a lot more than i planned to type out There are a lot of key points touched on there... but most of all, it just takes experience applying it all."

2/12/2006 4:54:46 AM

good advice, I play a lot of MTTs online and will try some of these variations to my normal play. Thanks!

2/12/2006 5:08:21 AM

late note... fyi, all the advice on raising with hands like low pairs and suited connectors... that'll all for pots where noone has limped. I like to limp in with low pairs following one or more limpers (if limp is for less than 1/15th of my stack), and i'll usually just fold suited connectors or hands like KQ if there are limpers in front of me. If lots of limpers, I may limp in late position with suited connectors though, again only if stacks are fairly deep compared to the blinds.

2/12/2006 6:46:45 AM

low stacki, trying to steal...

Getting Hand History Information...
----------------------------------------------------------------

Hand #11861420-68 at TurboSnG-0001i (No Limit Hold'em Sit and Go)
Powered by UltimateBet
Started at 12/Feb/06 17:00:30

skiatty is at seat 1 with 3400.
RVoegele is at seat 2 with 1830.
eclipse122 is at seat 3 with 5095.
bigmamou99 is at seat 6 with 4675.
The button is at seat 1.

RVoegele posts the small blind of 150.
eclipse122 posts the big blind of 300.

skiatty: -- --
RVoegele: 7h 8h
eclipse122: -- --
bigmamou99: -- --

Pre-flop:

bigmamou99 folds. skiatty calls. RVoegele goes
all-in for 1830. eclipse122 calls. skiatty folds.


Tournament all-in showdown -- players show:

RVoegele shows 7h 8h.
eclipse122 shows Jh Kc.


Flop (board: 8c 7d 8d):

(no action in this round)


Turn (board: 8c 7d 8d 2c):

(no action in this round)


River (board: 8c 7d 8d 2c 8s):

(no action in this round)




Showdown:

RVoegele has 7h 8h 8c 8d 8s: four eights.
eclipse122 has Jh Kc 8c 8d 8s: three eights.


Hand #11861420-68 Summary:

No rake is taken for this hand.
RVoegele wins 3960 with four eights.
----------------------------------------------------------------

2/12/2006 5:01:41 PM

holy controversy over the party 500k



this could get interesting, but it probably wont.

2/13/2006 9:12:57 AM

^what controversy?

2/13/2006 11:29:30 AM

apparently the winner of partys 500k yesterday is a well known tournament player, one considered among the best in the world. JJProdigy.

but his screen name finished way out of the money

his "grandmothers" screen name won $140,000. this was let loose by one of his friends in a pocket 5s' thread.

the story went that his grandmother started it, and when he busted, he coached her till it went deep, then he took over.

the buzz is getting kinda intense that this is rather common among online pros, having multiple entries to the same tournament.

I for one think that thats a blatant violation of the terms and conditions of ALL of the poker sites, and a clear advantage to them. How would this happen in a live tournament scenario, why would it be acceptable here? It increases thier tournament EV termendously, while decreasing my equity.

you can get around it, on cash games and sng's multiple users formt he same IP address is prohibited and not allowed by the software, but it is allowed in MTTs, so that say my roomate and I could play the same large field tournament.


I just find it very fucking unbelievable that he has been "staking his grandmother" when both names show up in both of several high $ buy in large MTT's over the past few weeks, like some of the party supers. I know hes a west coaster, but these supers are wayy late at night. I know my g-ma doesnt routinely stay up till the wee hours of the morning to gamble in a $150+15 tournament when shes never played a $1 before.

It appears as if many do this, and few that do find a problem with it.

[Edited on February 13, 2006 at 1:40 PM. Reason : e]

2/13/2006 1:38:06 PM

i just folded 83s

good story eh

2/13/2006 4:07:55 PM

Does that really surprise you, though? Only the naive would think that this doesn't happen in every major online tourney.

2/13/2006 4:15:40 PM

No, I knew it happened some, but from what Ive been reading it appears as if its fucking rampant.

What should happen however, since it is a direct violation of the party poker T&C is that the winnings should be voided.

itll also be interesting to see who claims that whopper on their taxes.

It'll only take one example to stop the problem quick.

2/13/2006 4:20:55 PM

^Void the winnings and have a freeroll for it! That would be hot!

2/13/2006 4:40:19 PM

then people can cheat in the freeroll!!

2/13/2006 4:51:48 PM

god i hate when someone sucks out in a huge pot in a tounament then goes "away"

2/13/2006 5:03:23 PM

better in a tournament than in a cash game when they rathole immediately

2/13/2006 5:04:21 PM

hahaha guess he just went to get a drink or something. he came back and i got to take out my anger on him. and win some of my chips back

2/13/2006 5:06:42 PM

hahah i just got it all back. fuck that guy

2/13/2006 5:12:36 PM

omg final table i am better than all you fuckers

2/13/2006 5:52:57 PM

where at and which tourn?

2/13/2006 6:04:21 PM

pokerstars

THE tournament

2/13/2006 6:05:36 PM

6th place

WHATS UP BITCHES I WON 3 BUCKS

fuck JonTurner and all that 10k noise

2/13/2006 6:13:23 PM

Yeah, so I am gonna need an update on that hand pilgrimshoes.

And I am officially super-gay. I am playing in a $1.00 + $0.00 tourney. Started with around 2500, and I am at 200th with a very big stack. If I get 1st, I will be pocketing $500. Whoop dee doo.

2/13/2006 10:41:27 PM

Man I hate going out on a bad beat.

Seat 1: G0LForP0KER ( $186186 )
Seat 2: sonicseadog ( $201431 )
Seat 3: ScottyP_85 ( $44852 )
Seat 4: gusmoneymake ( $238954 )
Seat 5: railey ( $311242 )
Seat 6: AmbreaDawn ( $75556 )
Seat 7: jsm696 ( $52828 )
Seat 8: SuperWhopper ( $115192 )
Seat 9: Graz0000 ( $221011 )
Trny:20153706 Level:18
Blinds (4000/8000)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to AmbreaDawn [ 8d 9d ]
jsm696 folds.
SuperWhopper folds.
Graz0000 folds.
G0LForP0KER raises [24000].
sonicseadog folds.
ScottyP_85 folds.
gusmoneymake folds.
railey folds.
AmbreaDawn calls [16000].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 9c, 5d, Kc ]
AmbreaDawn checks.
G0LForP0KER bets [25000].
AmbreaDawn is all-In [51556]
G0LForP0KER calls [26556].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 7d ]
** Dealing River ** [ Qs ]
G0LForP0KER shows [ Qd, Ts ] a pair of queens.
AmbreaDawn shows [ 8d, 9d ] a pair of nines.
G0LForP0KER wins 155112 chips from the main pot with a pair of queens.
Player AmbreaDawn finished in 18 place and received $17.41
AmbreaDawn has left the table.

I know it's only a dollar tournament, but I hate to see a suckout like that. I would have been in such great position too with over 150k. Easy coast to the final table. Oh well, I probably would have called there too for only 25k more, it just sucks to make the right play and lose.

2/14/2006 12:47:00 AM

one thing i have noticed about bodog in particular... there are a load of 'gamblers' on there. When I say that, I mean people who came straight from the sportsbook, and will put all their chips in on a hand and play the flop lottery. In this one(5 dollar buyin heads up), the guy won an insignificant 1st hand, then doubled the big blind on the next hand. I had big slick, and was steamin from a previous game, so I said fuck it, I'll do it. Went allin, he called with K4. I know it wasnt smart of me to go allin 3 hands into the game, or to go allin period with such an even amount of chips, but damn there are some nuts on bodog. Lucked out the next hand and flopped a queen and won it.



[Edited on February 14, 2006 at 5:13 PM. Reason : xx]

2/14/2006 5:12:29 PM

yeah I've definately noticed the sportsbook effect at bodog.. I've also noticed the same thing at pacific poker due to people wandering into the poker room from casino-on-net looking to GAMBOOL


speaking of bodog, how terrible is the new software upgrade? hate the tiny cards, cant tell who is still in the hand, and cant multitable worth a shit with this picture in picture garbage.. bleh



[Edited on February 14, 2006 at 6:02 PM. Reason : .]

2/14/2006 5:55:44 PM

bodog freeroll, holla

2/15/2006 2:00:24 AM

final table holla,

N C STATE.....NC STATE

2/15/2006 3:09:52 AM

got 4th, was lowstacked for awhile, then got rivered on

2/15/2006 4:04:44 AM

I refuse to play bodog until they get rid of that aweful software. Only reason I have any money on there is to make bets and play the 100k.

^ p.s. - stevie, i think you stole my NCSU logo for an icon

[Edited on February 15, 2006 at 2:24 PM. Reason : ps]

2/15/2006 2:21:04 PM

Did boobs ever say why he gave up poker?

2/15/2006 2:28:32 PM

when did he say that he quit

2/15/2006 2:58:53 PM

^

Quote :

"there has come a reason in my life(non related to money or poker) that i will never play or talk about poker. accordingly, the game that i was going to have when i come back is off good luck in the future"

i was interested as well

2/15/2006 4:30:15 PM

its not as interesting as you guys hope.

in fact, its very interesting to me, but not interesting to the aspect of

a.) he got his arms broke and pawned his TV for a gambling debt in NY
b.) got in trouble with work for not showing up due to poker
c.) got in trouble somwehere or anywhere due to it.


its nothing like that at all, its more of a conceptual thing, and i kinda agree with his ideas.

unfortunately, weve only breifly discussed it, but we are going to talk about it more.

On that note, I havent played in 10 days. online or live..

The rest of that hand is comming, i may go ahead and finish it up. Ive still been thinking about some the aspects of it, and the concepts that I have come up with have led me to the break I am taking.

2/15/2006 4:35:43 PM

So are the rest of us going to be privy to this story or no?

2/15/2006 4:42:30 PM

its not really a story at all, its more of a concoction of level of thinking/play vs. decreasing variance.

in my mind.

I dont want to tell his side of this for him, if he wants to, then he will. If he doesnt want to, then I cannot do it for him.

A side note to the whole thing would be not getting the satisfaction out of the time and effort being put into your game to make it worthwhile.

After a point, even playing within your bankroll, the swings get to a point where it really hurts to have someone donk you off, while you are playing at a level that still excites you and isnt a total grind.. Playing below this, say at a $500 game or something, just isnt exciting or interesting anymore really. Where as if you drop into a 2k tournament, it is, but there are players at just the same level as a tiny stakes game, just a bit fewer of them. I think boobs may have ran into a bit of a rough patch, but its going to happen. I mean, guys chasing their gutters only come through occasionally, but it sucks when it pops you in very inopportune times. Also, tournament variance is one of the most brutal things in the entire game. Mathmatically, one could be a +EV player and still be a lifetime negative loser in tournament poker. This holds mainly for live play, due to not having the capability to play more than a couple of hundred per year. in online tournaments, you can decrease this due to number of tournaments that it is possible to play. but even then its a boring grind to play on the range of 30 or so tournaments per day. To do this, it doenst excited me at all to play a $50 tournament at all, but i dont have the roll to play higher. I take shots with higher ones, but i shouldnt. Thats a major leak i have. In tournaments you really should only play tournaments that the buy in is ~1/300th of your total roll.

Im rambling again.

I think that Boobs misses many of the finer points of the ebb of the game, points that are levels and levels above where I am presently. This may be more interesting to him, but its just like any other thing that you are doing. The first few years the steps are grand and large, and easy to identify. After a while, the steps are much much smaller to the point where you dont even realize what you are changing or how you changed. You learn things in smaller doses, and its not as............. exciting, for lack of a better word, i guess.

I mean i read things online posted by some of the top online pros that just boggle my mind, as to how they even conceptualize some of the theories. knowing theories and having the expertise to pull them off however is something that is another story. ie. a holding/moving block theory in tournaments, proper timing for UTG raisign with garbage that is basically chip dumping to players to your left that you view as weaker, as basically having them hold blocks for you for later, all the while mystifying anyone paying attention.


Well balls, I really got to rambling.

So basically the point is the fact that,

where is the trade off.

The variance (mainly the low end of the standard distro) vs. the pain in the ass that poker can be. Is there a happy median at his position, or is it just better value for him not to play at all and not have the distraction, second occupation, and mainly stress inducer.

I am trying to figure that out for myself right now as well.

I could be way off, as I mentioned, we only talked for a few minutes. This isnt exactly his whole reasoning, but a bit of a conceptualization of it.

a far fetched one at that.







As a side note, I am not sure if the long run really exists for 90% of poker players at all. Well, I am certian it does not exist for the live player. Thats another topic.

2/15/2006 5:09:44 PM

Thinking of the "long run" kinda like a "hole" in quantum mechanics.

Doesnt really exist, but has its own properties and formulas. It only has these properties due to a well established and understood mathematical explanation of the probabilities of the properties of the "object."


These probabilities are based on millions of billions of interactions, just like statistical analysis of the "long run" in poker.

There are 212 or so individual poker hands in HE that you could be dealt.

It is accepted that you cannot establish a reliable win rate in a LIMIT game untill you have recorded ~100,000 hands played over all. So ideally, you will have had each hand X number of times during this data set. Even online, 4 tabling at 45 hands per hour, Thats still 556 hours of play. Thats quite a bit. Ideally, you react the exact same in every exact situation in order to maintain the exact same style. This is one of the points hwere I have a problem. Each game has its on texture, and there is no way that exact same "statistically correct" play is the correct play for this hand. So it further increases the variability of the play set. This in turn would increase the hands necessary to establish a true BB/100 win rate. My next aspect would be the fact that there is only what... (4/52)*(3/52) = 0.004438 chance that youll get AA any particular hand during your 100k hand set right? well that assumes that you SHOULD be dealt AA 443.787 times during that entire series of hands. How can we assume that each specific scenario of setups occurred during this small sample set of 444 hands? We can't, the sample size is too small.

Therefore to ever be "confident" in your sample size, its unrealistic to determine your true standard deviation coefficient of your play. How many of you have logged and kept records on over 5 million hands you yourself have played? Even this may not be enough.

Now as for live play, hell dont even begin to try and figure out live variance, for any type of play. Just to accumulate 100k hands in live play would take a life time of 8 hour days. (~500 days of 8 hours of play per day, assuming a very speedy 25 hands per hour.) The long run just doesnt exist for live play.


Keep in mind that there are statistically viable ways to make no limit have a much tighter standard deviation coefficient, and could in turn possibly decrease the hands necessary to determine any sort of statistical analysis.

The long run may in fact be overrated as a concept and may in fact just flat out does not exist. we only have approximations for the specific hand mathematically.


No, I am not high.


Take all of this for a grain of salt, I have not planned any of this, nor outlined any of my arguemnt. This is straight stream of conscious thinking.

I may infact be an idiot.

NoidRoid is a stats geek, hell chime in somewhere i think.

[Edited on February 15, 2006 at 5:34 PM. Reason : meh, theres more, but ive got to leave to go to the bar]

2/15/2006 5:31:50 PM

this was probably a waste.

2/15/2006 5:34:31 PM

I don't think it makes sense to try and reduce poker to these terms. Or to try and overanalyze it.

This is ridiculous.

2/15/2006 8:17:01 PM

Quote :

"this was probably a waste."

2/15/2006 10:01:52 PM

[Edited on February 15, 2006 at 10:45 PM. Reason : .]

[Edited on February 15, 2006 at 10:56 PM. Reason : .]

2/15/2006 10:45:28 PM

see thats why people like me have been saying poker is a fad for the past 5 years now

because people like you are not liking it as much and i'm sure many more will follow

fads always die

2/15/2006 10:49:28 PM

i was playing poker way b4 this started

though it is the morons that keeps poker strong through their money, but they also make it less desirable

who knows

[Edited on February 15, 2006 at 10:52 PM. Reason : .]

2/15/2006 10:50:39 PM

well i still think poker is a fad and many more people will lose interest

2/15/2006 10:51:53 PM